IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #174

[StarryStarryNight]

I did not know if he went to the conservation officer to speak until before or after the photograph was released. I thought a few others on here said he spoke to the conservation officer before the photograph of bridge guy was released so the information is confusing to understand.

I still find it a bit strange to go any type of LE officer because if LE are asking to speak to someone from a photograph or video or audio recording, the implication is that LE does not know who it is. They cannot identify that person. Sometimes I think people think in their opinion that since he said he went out to the first platform on the Monon High Bridge, therefore he must be the person in the video taken by Liberty German's phone. In my opinion, this is not fact, even with his positioning on the trail and the bridge when the girls were walking towards the bridge.

But since he confessed to the crime multiple times, then I guess it must be him.

We are almost 15 months out from the arrest.
We still don’t know the date RA spoke LE. We don’t know where he spoke with LE or the circumstances. We don’t know who contacted who to have this chat.
It is ridiculous to me that things like that have not been released.

 

[photographer4]

He positioned himself on that bridge. The you have his numerous confessions to two family members. If those confessions are clearly transcribed as admissions to the murders, added to his Oct 22 interview admissions, quite damning evidence. AJMO

They'll be damning if they have details only the killer would know. Otherwise, who knows what he's been told / read about this crime? Maybe he's convinced he did it, when he didn't (he wouldn't be the first accused to suffer this issue). Maybe he didn't do it, but feels if he says he did, it would be easier for his family to move on? Who knows. But without actual evidence - I'm not sold. Yet. Let's hear what he "confessed" exactly and under what conditions he made the confessions....

 

[sunshineray]

They'll be damning if they have details only the killer would know. Otherwise, who knows what he's been told / read about this crime? Maybe he's convinced he did it, when he didn't (he wouldn't be the first accused to suffer this issue). Maybe he didn't do it, but feels if he says he did, it would be easier for his family to move on? Who knows. But without actual evidence - I'm not sold. Yet. Let's hear what he "confessed" exactly and under what conditions he made the confessions....

Sorry I don't agree with any of that way of thinking especially since he put himself on that bridge and walking by those girls going towards that bridge at a time they were then able to time stamp with a picture. I also don't agree an innocent man confesses to make "it" easier on his family when that would, IMO, most likely destroy his family. We have two opposing ways of thinking on that.
AJMO

 

[marv hucker]

Thank you, you’re right it started with MW (allegedly).

MW-RF-MRC. MW allegedly sent them to RF (died from suicide, from Indiana), who allegedly sent them to MRC (a man from Texas who allegedly spread them everywhere/to Podcasters). Why doesn’t the MW affidavit say MW sent them to anyone else? He admits that he was in AB’s office and took a picture of the pictures without AB’s knowledge, but he never says he sent them to anyone else. JMO that’s a bit weird, right? Does it only matter he took them from AB’s office but not that he gave them to someone who allegedly gave them to MRC, who spread them everywhere, allegedly?

Why isn’t MRC being prosecuted? Why is MS acting like MRC did nothing wrong? We can’t ask RF anything since he has passed.

Why does MW want a jury trial?? I don’t know any of these answers but I’m curious.

Weird, but potentially an argument that will be made in court.

If he only sent them to 1 known/trusted person - who now cannot testify - it’s slightly less bad than if MW had directly sent them to broadcasters/podcasters etc.

LE also potentially hoping to establish how MRC got them in this first case against MW. Before proceeding with charges. It would essentially be a charge of dealing in stolen property, wouldn’t it?

 

[marv hucker]

I did not know if he went to the conservation officer to speak until before or after the photograph was released. I thought a few others on here said he spoke to the conservation officer before the photograph of bridge guy was released so the information is confusing to understand.

I still find it a bit strange to go any type of LE officer because if LE are asking to speak to someone from a photograph or video or audio recording, the implication is that LE does not know who it is. They cannot identify that person. Sometimes I think people think in their opinion that since he said he went out to the first platform on the Monon High Bridge, therefore he must be the person in the video taken by Liberty German's phone. In my opinion, this is not fact, even with his positioning on the trail and the bridge when the girls were walking towards the bridge.

But since he confessed to the crime multiple times, then I guess it must be him.

Technically true that it’s not 100% conclusively established as fact (and won’t/can’t be based on the publicly released snapshot), but it’s definitely a very very high probability - given all the other pieces of info.

 

[marv hucker]

And that is precisely one of the reasons I'm not convinced of RA's guilt here. Even though he "confessed" to his people on the phone, I'm not convinced. I need solid evidence here!

I think we’re all curious but there (hopefully) won’t be anything like that until the court case is in full swing.

 

[somequestions]

Interesting that no one ever came forward and said I was the guy walking on 300 N that day. Of course, that’s because LE never released that they had a witness who saw that person. Releasing this information early on could have clarified a lot.
That being said, that information did come out shortly after RA’s arrest and no one has still yet to come forward to identify themselves as the wet and muddy possibly bloody guy.

Also a very good point!

No one else has confessed to the Delphi murders either. No one else has been arrested for the Delphi murders. But would someone like the killer in this case care if an innocent man was convicted for his crimes? Eyewitness testimony can sometimes be fraught with errors too. There are many people that look like bridge guy. Even a news interview with the property owner, Ron Logan, has him wearing a blue jacket with a hat. I do not think Ron Logan has anything to do with the Delphi murders.

It can be sort of dangerous to think this way given that when police make an arrest in a case like this, the presumption can be that the accused is guilty. But I admit Richard Allen confessing to the crimes does not help the defense claim that he is innocent. The evidence released to the public in the PCA seems thin. What if LE arrested the wrong man?

 

[photographer4]

Sorry I don't agree with any of that way of thinking especially since he put himself on that bridge and walking by those girls going towards that bridge at a time they were then able to time stamp with a picture. I also don't agree an innocent man confesses to make "it" easier on his family when that would, IMO, most likely destroy his family. We have two opposing ways of thinking on that.
AJMO

I hear you. I do. But I wanted to point out - the girls passed by someone one the bridge and took a photo of the bridge and the bench. The person they saw didn’t say hello back and seemed to have a purpose in where they were going. But as far as we know, no one was sat at the bench or appeared in their photos. How do they know for sure it was RA they passed by? We know he saw some girls. Did police ask him what happened when they passed each other? What does he say happened after he saw those girls?

As an interesting side note, I was wondering -
If he parked at the old CPS building, would he be seen walking from his car to the bridge area? Do they have that or any other footage?

Something else we don’t know - any chance the driver who saw muddy bloody guy had a dash cam running at the time and captured him on video?

 

[photographer4]

I did not know if he went to the conservation officer to speak until before or after the photograph was released. I thought a few others on here said he spoke to the conservation officer before the photograph of bridge guy was released so the information is confusing to understand.

I still find it a bit strange to go any type of LE officer because if LE are asking to speak to someone from a photograph or video or audio recording, the implication is that LE does not know who it is. They cannot identify that person. Sometimes I think people think in their opinion that since he said he went out to the first platform on the Monon High Bridge, therefore he must be the person in the video taken by Liberty German's phone. In my opinion, this is not fact, even with his positioning on the trail and the bridge when the girls were walking towards the bridge.

But since he confessed to the crime multiple times, then I guess it must be him.

If RA didn’t catch up to the victims on the bridge - is it possible someone did ambush them at the end of the bridge then? That’s a long distance - would someone sitting at the bench at the trail head be able to witness that? Or someone at the first platform? Just curious. RA having been there doesn’t make him a killer.

One witness thinks she saw the victims walk toward the bridge where RA was. How confident is she that she saw RA and not some other man? I can’t remember - did he see her as well? Did he see the victims approach the bridge?

Know what would be great? If LG happened to get. Photo or video of the man at the start of the bridge! A clear shot would be brilliant! That would be a good reason for RA to have eaten his disclosure papers in my view. That would be pretty damning.

We have a clip of a longer video that was was not released where BG said down the hill. I’m hoping LG gift wrapped her killer for police!!

They must have more than we know to have picked up RA for this. Wouldn’t surprise me if the girls got him in a photo or clip at the trail start. Or as they walked along and we don’t know it yet.

The FM said the phone was found under Abby’s body. Thinking on where and how the kids were found - the killer wanted them found. By whom or what? We don’t know. But the phone under a body makes me think the killer may have used the phone to take photos or video or to record a message to LE. Could it have fallen out of the pocket of the jacket or sweater she was dressed in? Not if it landed under her back - I just don’t think that was a random coincidence that the cell was found. There will be more to that I suspect.

 

[photographer4]

No one else has confessed to the Delphi murders either. No one else has been arrested for the Delphi murders. But would someone like the killer in this case care if an innocent man was convicted for his crimes? Eyewitness testimony can sometimes be fraught with errors too. There are many people that look like bridge guy. Even a news interview with the property owner, Ron Logan, has him wearing a blue jacket with a hat. I do not think Ron Logan has anything to do with the Delphi murders.

It can be sort of dangerous to think this way given that when police make an arrest in a case like this, the presumption can be that the accused is guilty. But I admit Richard Allen confessing to the crimes does not help the defense claim that he is innocent. The evidence released to the public in the PCA seems thin. What if LE arrested the wrong man?

We had a man convicted in the Christine Jessop case (Canada, 1980s) and he “confessed” to someone in jail. The police were sure he did it. He spent actual hard time in jail. But in the end his DNA didn’t match and he was released. They couldn’t find the real killer until more recently when they used genealogy and dna to solve it. He couldn’t be charged because he was already dead. I don’t think this is as uncommon as we may think - that a killer doesn’t come forward to say “hey, you have the wrong man… I’m your guy”. I would have loved to have known what Jessop’s killer thought of the wrong man in jail for his crime. Imagine having that discussion with someone like that?!

 

[StarryStarryNight]

No one else has confessed to the Delphi murders either. No one else has been arrested for the Delphi murders. But would someone like the killer in this case care if an innocent man was convicted for his crimes? Eyewitness testimony can sometimes be fraught with errors too. There are many people that look like bridge guy. Even a news interview with the property owner, Ron Logan, has him wearing a blue jacket with a hat. I do not think Ron Logan has anything to do with the Delphi murders.

It can be sort of dangerous to think this way given that when police make an arrest in a case like this, the presumption can be that the accused is guilty. But I admit Richard Allen confessing to the crimes does not help the defense claim that he is innocent. The evidence released to the public in the PCA seems thin. What if LE arrested the wrong man?

Just pointing out that I said nothing about RA’s possible guilt or innocence. I was pointing out that once the public knew someone had witnessed a man walking on 300 N that day, that someone could call LE and say “hey that was me” and assuming LE could somehow corroborate it so many years later, that witness testimony disappears. It wouldn’t necessarily exonerate RA but that’s one less witness in the timeline.
I never mentioned RL.
Never mentioned confessions.
Never mentioned the PCA.
I don’t accept that I am “dangerously” thinking about anything.
I’m guessing you responded to me by mistake

 

[zh0r4]

Did witnesses pick him out of a line up BEFORE or AFTER his arrest because at that point, his image was all over all the news media everywhere. If they did use this method, I hope it was right before they arrested him.

I’m not aware of any line-ups being conducted. JMO.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Speculation 1.
I could see MW argue the State has made an error in the charge; he's not committed the specific crime they've cited ... so MW would fight the "erroneous charge" itself.
He'd try to avoid the criminal charge by getting a ruling early on from the Court that the charges don't apply here. (If successful, no trial).

Speculation 2.
If not successful, we might speculate that MW chooses to proceed to trial.
In a Westerman trial ... a fuller leak story would go on the public record, including the investigation of said leak, including a suicide outcome in the middle of that investigation.

Is it worth it to the State to hold a trial on this thing? Who knows.

At any point here, the State can consider offering MW deferred adjudication - which is basically probation (MW had no other arrest record). In short, if MW behaves for x amount of time of probation, the criminal charges go away.

It seems like a reasonable goal, if you're Westerman, a guy with a law degree and every reason to avoid a criminal record.

all JMHO and pure speculation...

MW didn't pass the bar exam and is not a licensed attorney. This was no 'small inconvenience', it was grossly negligent behavior on many parts, starting with AB IMO.

<snipped>
On Oct. 9, Westerman reportedly contacted Baldwin and admitted to being behind the leak. Westerman told Baldwin that he had stopped by the law firm’s office and found evidence photos related to the Delphi case spread out in Baldwin’s conference room. Westerman admitted to using his phone to take photographs of the evidence and then sharing those photos with a Fishers man. Investigators determined the Fishers man then shared the evidence with a man from Texas who, in turn, forwarded the evidence to various YouTube and podcast creators.

According to court documents, the Fishers man ended up taking his own life after being questioned by police about the evidence leak.

Westfield man charged in Delphi murders evidence leak
MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Here is the official Motion regarding discovery safekeeping: BBM

Comes now the Court, the Sate of Indiana ,by NicholasC.MeLeland, Prosecuting Atorney, having filed its’ Motion Requesting Protective Order Governing Discovery, and the Court being duly advised in the premises, now grants sid Motion and the State, the Defendant and Counsel for the Defendant, are now instructed and ORDERED as follows:

1. That one copy of the discovery material shall be provided to Counsel for the Defendant.

1. That no additional copies of the discovery material shall be made by the Defendant, Defendant's Counsel, investigator, expert or any other representative or agent of the Defendant for any reason.
2. That the discovery material shall not be used for any purpose other than to prepare for the defense in the above referenced cause number.
3. That the discovery material shall not be publicly exhibited, displayed, shown, used for educational research or demonstrative purposes or used in any other manner, except in judicial proceedings in the above referenced action.

5. That the discovery material may be viewed only by parties, counsel and counsel's investigators and experts.
6. That if copies of the discovery material are made and provided to the Defendant, investigators or experts for the Defense, that sensitive and private information contained in the discovery shall be redacted, including any social security numbers, IDAC information or NCIC information ,any information related to the personal information of juveniles, including social security numbers, names and date of birth and any FBI sentinel information.

 

[mrjitty]

If RA didn’t catch up to the victims on the bridge - is it possible someone did ambush them at the end of the bridge then? That’s a long distance - would someone sitting at the bench at the trail head be able to witness that? Or someone at the first platform? Just curious. RA having been there doesn’t make him a killer.

One witness thinks she saw the victims walk toward the bridge where RA was. How confident is she that she saw RA and not some other man? I can’t remember - did he see her as well? Did he see the victims approach the bridge?

Know what would be great? If LG happened to get. Photo or video of the man at the start of the bridge! A clear shot would be brilliant! That would be a good reason for RA to have eaten his disclosure papers in my view. That would be pretty damning.

We have a clip of a longer video that was was not released where BG said down the hill. I’m hoping LG gift wrapped her killer for police!!

They must have more than we know to have picked up RA for this. Wouldn’t surprise me if the girls got him in a photo or clip at the trail start. Or as they walked along and we don’t know it yet.

The FM said the phone was found under Abby’s body. Thinking on where and how the kids were found - the killer wanted them found. By whom or what? We don’t know. But the phone under a body makes me think the killer may have used the phone to take photos or video or to record a message to LE. Could it have fallen out of the pocket of the jacket or sweater she was dressed in? Not if it landed under her back - I just don’t think that was a random coincidence that the cell was found. There will be more to that I suspect.

Bolded. The problem is IMO, that if he did pass the 3 juvenile females at 1.30 (I believe he must of) then where was he if he is not the guy woman walker saw on the Bridge?

RA said he saw neither woman walker, or the victims, but as they 'sweep' the trail behind him - where can he have been so not to have seen them?

Personally i think if the tip had been handled properly in those early days, this case would not be a great mystery.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Sorry for the formatting in the above Motion, it comes out wonky when you try to copy and paste an image. My point ultimately being that B&R both knew and had a sworn duty to protect that information from public dissemination. This was no small oopsie, it was a major breach of the Court's trust and the effects were vast.

It was definitely negligent behavior on their parts, whether it was in A's or R's office doesn't matter, they were both counsel for the Defendant and equally responsible in all things.

I think there will charges and sanctions for a few people, and rightly so.

IMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

My understanding is MW worked with AB from 2015-2017, in AB’s law firm.

Yes, as an Operations/Office Manager 5 years prior, also MW is not a licensed attorney.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I’m not aware of any line-ups being conducted. JMO.

Why would we be? That would be part of the State's case which is unknown to us until trial.

A lot of these questions are people asking things that won't be discussed by gag order, and well, the State just doesn't go on TV, SM, or write a Memorandum stating the theory of the crime and their evidence before a trial generally speaking.

jmo

 

[FromGermany1]

If I were involved in MW's case as a prosecutor? I'd ask how they met, and when and why did he stop working for AB? I'd ask if he had a PI license as well. *IF* he was hired by them as a PI, we aren't allowed to know that detail thanks to JG's gag order that sealed the outcome of the D's motion on that matter. But nothing stops him from answering if he has a PI license to anyone, does it?

I'd then consider whether his leak was meant to incite other suspects to act in one way or another that might cause them to reveal themselves in some way to someone else (eg: to an undercover officer or someone else somehow involved as a suspect or investigator on this case). Even if AB didn't ask him to do this, and had no knowledge of this as something MW was planning to do to assist the case, it does make one wonder what his end goal was when he took the evidence photos and forwarded them, doesn't it? If this was the plan, then it doesn't appear to have ended well for him, does it? Imagine if that was the plan and it *did* draw someone out of the woodwork? He'd be a hometown hero if that person's involvement could be proven, wouldn't he? Could he also then have collected the reward $$ if his actions led to a conviction?

What does it mean that someone in receipt of leaked information killed himself if anything? There is no way for us know whether that was connected to the leak or entirely random, or a follow up action to years of mental health issues - but it doesn't seem random that the suicide followed the police investigation into the leak, does it?

I believe there is more to this leak story and I for one want to hear the entire story!!

I would ask MW, why did he send the crime scene pics targeted to the person, who later took his own life.

If anything, what benefit did he expect from sending the pics to RK?
Is/was RK a close friend of him, on a private level?
Was RK interested in crime just like every body else?
Was RK interested in crime and equipped with helpful knowledge because of a certain education?
Did RK's Army status have anything to do with it?
Did they (MW+RK) work together for investigation/crime-solving/DEFENSE in more cases? Which cases exactly (example)?
Did RK know RA for some reason? Which reason exactly? Army? Shared sporting interests? Privately? Other?
Possibly why did RK took his own life, after he was interviewed by LE? What reason could be given (except PTSD or other mental things) by you, Mr. MW?

 

[Andieinsyd]

I really think RA got his “tip” in before the case turned into a murder investigation. Below is link from the night the girls were missing with a phone number to contact. We see the Department of Natural Resources were involved In the search. This makes the most sense to me around the way RAs tip was dealt with by DD. Meeting at an unofficial location, made a note wondering who the girls on the trail are, and didn’t care too much about RA himself. I just don’t think it would have happened like this if it were a murder investigation. I also wonder if this is why the tip was misplaced, it was before the official hotline, and before the system for taking tips was up and running.
MISSING: Two 13-year-old Carroll Co. girls

“Local police, deputies, firefighters and the Department of Natural Resources are canvassing the area the girls were last seen.”