Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, and Liberty (Libby) German, 14/The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #88

[JudgeJudi]

Leazenby said there have been moments he believed the team was close to getting the killer but wouldn’t expand on what those moments were. He said, “"I fall back into the fact that when we get that one piece of evidence - and we're going to get it - we're only going to get one shot at a conviction."

My feeling is that:

1) IF they have what they believe to be BG’s DNA, they want at least one more piece of evidence to support it because DNA is very easily contaminated. It is circumstantial evidence and I’m unaware of any cases where DNA alone has brought about a murder conviction. However it’s been used very successfully in post-conviction exonerations. DNA must link a person to the crime, not just to a person.

2) They have some other evidence which on its own is not enough to secure a conviction.

Because this is such a high profile case, they won’t risk charging anyone without solid evidence because if they lose, double jeopardy law will apply and they will only get one chance.

 

[JudgeJudi]

A source familiar with the investigation described the full recording as "the stuff of nightmares." We all have our theories. After seeing the ashen faces of LE when the girls were found, it seemed to me that they weren’t shot but were killed by some other means and in a particularly gruesome manner. Like many other people, I think Libby was incapacitated in some way and/or killed first. She was much bigger and stronger than Abby. If this killer could “take care of” her, he then had more time to focus his attention on Abby.

If he had a gun, I think it would have been used to threaten them. If they chose to run away from him, there was always the chance that one could escape, unless of course he had an accomplice.

It's hard to believe that Libby recorded his voice and image and he's still out there somewhere 2 years later.

 

[Anecdotal]

1) IF they have what they believe to be BG’s DNA, they want at least one more piece of evidence to support it because DNA is very easily contaminated. It is circumstantial evidence and I’m unaware of any cases where DNA alone has brought about a murder conviction. However it’s been used very successfully in post-conviction exonerations. DNA must link a person to the crime, not just to a person.

If they have BG's DNA it must, almost by definition, be from the crime scene. They already have the other pieces of evidence to support a conviction: His presence with the victims (Libby's photographs) and his voice. I don't believe they would hold off on taking action against someone who's DNA was found amidst two murder victims just to wait for additional corroborating evidence.

I very sadly conclude they don't have the BG's DNA. I'm holding out slim hope that they do have it, but have hit dead ends in the 'familial dna' searches that are now so effective. If that were true, I would expect them to publicly request that more people submit their dna/ancestry into GEDmatch.

 

[Justice101]

I’m unable to paste a direct link but near the bottom of this media report is a media video taken from a helicopter the day the bodies were found.
MAP: Where the two bodies were found near Delphi

At about the 8:50 mark a residence to the mid left of the screen comes into view. Notice the driveway to that same property runs right beneath the long Monon High Bridge, viewed as the camera pans. In the past it was reported that property was owned by snowbirds and was vacant Feb/17. The driveway is also at the end of public road N625W, the house is at the very end. Coincidently, google indicates the Waste Transfer Station is along that same road, where RL was spotted driving while his licence was suspended.

If an attempted kidnapping was involved it’s possible “down the hill” from the end of Monon Bridge led directly to a parked vehicle along the side of that very isolated road. LE has never conclusively indicated only one killer was involved so it’s also possible another person was waiting in the car, on the lookout.

If the perp chose “the remotest place” as a preplanned murder spot as you suggest, then he must’ve been successful in somehow getting the girls “to keep walking and walking” because their bodies were not found “down the hill”. How would that be possible?

My theory is he wasn’t successful in an abduction attempt because the girls fled in a vain attempt to save their lives once they realized they were in danger and then were pursued. The perp didn’t necessarily cross the river at all, perhaps began firing as the girls reached the opposite bank.

It’s interesting to consider various theories, given very limited information has been released.

JMO

yes, I see what you are saying. It is very interesting if that new information you are saying about the property owner being away for a long period of time in the winter is true. if that were the case, then the perpetrator is probably a local... or at least there multiple years to see no activity on that long isolated driveway.

And you made me think of the question that keeps bugging me: How did he cross the girls across that creek? I just have the feeling that he somehow went back across the bridge to the north side and waited for them to return and then confronted them once the coast was clear looking across the bridge and down the dirt road that leads to the regular parking lot.

Then.. the "down the hill" would be across the side of the hill and down the hill to the place where their bodies were found.

Overall though... I have no earthly idea how it unfolded.. but it does seem to me that the place and plan was decided well ahead of time. Someone was smart enough to pull this off without anyone seeing or hearing it.

 

[IceIce9]

My gut feeling is that he used a gun to threaten and control them, as in getting them to walk “down the hill.”

But the deaths were not due to gunshots, MOO! I am guessing the COD was by a different mechanism of injury. My opinion and speculation only.

Remember, Indiana LE was contacted by Colorado regarding DN, because of “similarities” to the A & L murders. My thought back then was that the “similarities” involved a weapon that DN possessed or used. That would be a unique weapon, and gunshots deaths are not unique.

Also, the ashen, grey, faces at the press conference caught my attention. The looked like they were in shock. Gunshot deaths would not be unique, or gruesome. Gunshot deaths would be gruesome for the general public but not to police or emergency medical workers. MOO.

All this is my opinion. I respect the opinions of all members. After all, if we all were in agreement we would have nothing to discuss.

 

[MistyWaters]

My gut feeling is that he used a gun to threaten and control them, as in getting them to walk “down the hill.”

But the deaths were not due to gunshots, MOO! I am guessing the COD was by a different mechanism of injury. My opinion and speculation only.

Remember, Indiana LE was contacted by Colorado regarding DN, because of “similarities” to the A & L murders. My thought back then was that the “similarities” involved a weapon that DN possessed or used. That would be a unique weapon, and gunshots deaths are not unique.

Also, the ashen, grey, faces at the press conference caught my attention. The looked like they were in shock. Gunshot deaths would not be unique, or gruesome. Gunshot deaths would be gruesome for the general public but not to police or emergency medical workers. MOO.

All this is my opinion. I respect the opinions of all members. After all, if we all were in agreement we would have nothing to discuss.

Maybe it’s just me but I certainly could understand why local LE were profoundly grief stricken and in shock when publicly announcing the finding of bodies of two innocent teenagers who, until the moment of discovery, were only presumed to be missing — regardless of how they were murdered. Whether the murders were the result of gunshot versus stabbing versus strangulation I don’t think any manner would’ve made that announcement any easier whatsoever and therefore it’s not possible to read any clues into their personal horror of discovery of the homicides. One reason for that is the possible but unintentional insinuation is one type of murder is less devastating in some way than another, which of course is just not true.

 

[travelbug]

My gut feeling is that he used a gun to threaten and control them, as in getting them to walk “down the hill.”

But the deaths were not due to gunshots, MOO! I am guessing the COD was by a different mechanism of injury. My opinion and speculation only.

Remember, Indiana LE was contacted by Colorado regarding DN, because of “similarities” to the A & L murders. My thought back then was that the “similarities” involved a weapon that DN possessed or used. That would be a unique weapon, and gunshots deaths are not unique.

Also, the ashen, grey, faces at the press conference caught my attention. The looked like they were in shock. Gunshot deaths would not be unique, or gruesome. Gunshot deaths would be gruesome for the general public but not to police or emergency medical workers. MOO.

All this is my opinion. I respect the opinions of all members. After all, if we all were in agreement we would have nothing to discuss.

I can't recall if we have discussed this, but what if their horror was based upon the words on tape and potential gruesome staging and/or mutilation of the bodies. I still believe they have their eyes on a suspect. Someone who "supposedly" has an airtight alibi. The LE statements of "no danger to the public", still keep me angry and confused. That statement speaks to either a known motive or a known suspect. imho

 

[IceIce9]

I can't recall if we have discussed this, but what if their horror was based upon the words on tape and potential gruesome staging and/or mutilation of the bodies. I still believe they have their eyes on a suspect. Someone who "supposedly" has an airtight alibi. The LE statements of "no danger to the public", still keep me angry and confused. That statement speaks to either a known motive or a known suspect. imho

I know that I was truly surprised when LE announced immediately that there was no danger to the public. That made me think that they already had a suspect in mind, just like you stated.

Also, the other LE statement that made me think they had a motive or suspect was, “Know what your kids are doing.” Paraphrasing here but that was the gist of their statement.

What are your thoughts about the “similarities” to the DN case that caused Colorado LE to notify Indiana investigators?

 

[carbuff]

I can't recall if we have discussed this, but what if their horror was based upon the words on tape and potential gruesome staging and/or mutilation of the bodies. I still believe they have their eyes on a suspect. Someone who "supposedly" has an airtight alibi. The LE statements of "no danger to the public", still keep me angry and confused. That statement speaks to either a known motive or a known suspect. imho

My thoughts tend to go along these lines also.

 

[travelbug]

The DN case was one that really caught my attention, but the case that still has me wondering is this one: Police won't say if 1988 Indiana cold case suspect linked to 2017 Delphi murders of two teenage girls.
I keep hoping they will make a connection (won't elaborate on my reason) between these cases. The location works. This article also provides more info about that case. I'm convinced that LE has at least one potential suspect in their sights, but they are missing the final evidence or can't break an "alibi" to bring someone in. I also noted this statement in the article: ..."One thing JPM cannot explain is the mileage on his brother's car. Three years ago, John acquired the dark-colored Chevy Malibu that was still parked Thursday in front of his trailer. At the time of purchase, the car had 250 miles on it. Why it now has 70,000 miles when John seemed to mostly drive to the Kendallville Walmart and back to Grabill is puzzling, JPM said." jmho

 

[Jabarn]

Watching this segment from the Dr. Phil Show, BP speaks to the timeline. Everything must’ve gone very fast once BG had the girls go down the hill. IMO.

 

[JudgeJudi]

If they have BG's DNA it must, almost by definition, be from the crime scene. They already have the other pieces of evidence to support a conviction: His presence with the victims (Libby's photographs) and his voice. I don't believe they would hold off on taking action against someone who's DNA was found amidst two murder victims just to wait for additional corroborating evidence.

I very sadly conclude they don't have the BG's DNA. I'm holding out slim hope that they do have it, but have hit dead ends in the 'familial dna' searches that are now so effective. If that were true, I would expect them to publicly request that more people submit their dna/ancestry into GEDmatch.

LE have never stated whose DNA was found at the crime scene, nor have they stated that they have other pieces of evidence to support a conviction.

Even if someone identifies BG and if, say, his DNA has been found on a weapon at the crime scene, that alone still doesn't prove his guilt. Touch DNA for example does not prove that the person actually visited the scene or directly touched the object in question. The DNA easily could have been transferred by other means.

Circumstantial evidence implies that the defendant was involved in the crime. Cases based on circumstantial evidence are like pieces of a puzzle. Each individual piece does not have to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt. However, the more pieces you have, the higher the chance of a conviction.

”Beyond a reasonable doubt” is the highest legal standard. The standard requires that the evidence offer no logical explanation or conclusion other than that the defendant committed the crime.

 

[raja]

The DN case was one that really caught my attention, but the case that still has me wondering is this one: Police won't say if 1988 Indiana cold case suspect linked to 2017 Delphi murders of two teenage girls.
I keep hoping they will make a connection (won't elaborate on my reason) between these cases. The location works. This article also provides more info about that case. I'm convinced that LE has at least one potential suspect in their sights, but they are missing the final evidence or can't break an "alibi" to bring someone in. I also noted this statement in the article: ..."One thing JPM cannot explain is the mileage on his brother's car. Three years ago, John acquired the dark-colored Chevy Malibu that was still parked Thursday in front of his trailer. At the time of purchase, the car had 250 miles on it. Why it now has 70,000 miles when John seemed to mostly drive to the Kendallville Walmart and back to Grabill is puzzling, JPM said." jmho

I must be missing something. Is the info on dark colored Chevy Malibu in this article?

 

[MistyWaters]

I can't recall if we have discussed this, but what if their horror was based upon the words on tape and potential gruesome staging and/or mutilation of the bodies. I still believe they have their eyes on a suspect. Someone who "supposedly" has an airtight alibi. The LE statements of "no danger to the public", still keep me angry and confused. That statement speaks to either a known motive or a known suspect. imho

When the news of the tragic deaths first broke, I don’t recall LE telling the community there was no danger to the public because various media interviews early on definately left the impression people within the community were very concerned, even fearful for the safety of their children. But I do remember various actions being taken to increase safety, this as an example:

“After the deaths of two teenagers, Delphi is hosting a self-defense class geared toward women as young as 10 years old.......
The self-defense class, in addition to a new trail safety task force, is meant to reinvigorate the small town's sense of safety, McCain said...
...The event comes after a similar self-defense program, called radKIDS, was hosted several times in March..”
Delphi to host self defense class for women

 

[travelbug]

When the news of the tragic deaths first broke, I don’t recall LE telling the community there was no danger to the public because various media interviews early on definately left the impression people within the community were very concerned, even fearful for the safety of their children. But I do remember various actions being taken to increase safety, this as an example:

“After the deaths of two teenagers, Delphi is hosting a self-defense class geared toward women as young as 10 years old.......
The self-defense class, in addition to a new trail safety task force, is meant to reinvigorate the small town's sense of safety, McCain said...”
Delphi to host self defense class for women

My comment was referring the reasons LE gave for calling off the search the night before the bodies were found". Bless those from the community who continued to look, but what if the perp was among them and took that opportunity to destroy evidence. imo

 

[travelbug]

I must be missing something. Is the info on dark colored Chevy Malibu in this article?

My post was intentionally vague in order to comply with TOS. If someone thinks my post has relevance I would hope they would explore further by checking out additional links that are a part of the original article.

 

[raja]

My post was intentionally vague in order to comply with TOS. If someone thinks my post has relevance I would hope they would explore further by checking out additional links that are a part of the original article.

I did just that and you were correct and I find it very interesting.

 

[margarita25]

What’s the latest? Anything? I’ve been busy in other threads.

 

[IceIce9]

When the news of the tragic deaths first broke, I don’t recall LE telling the community there was no danger to the public because various media interviews early on definately left the impression people within the community were very concerned, even fearful for the safety of their children. But I do remember various actions being taken to increase safety, this as an example:

“After the deaths of two teenagers, Delphi is hosting a self-defense class geared toward women as young as 10 years old.......
The self-defense class, in addition to a new trail safety task force, is meant to reinvigorate the small town's sense of safety, McCain said...
...The event comes after a similar self-defense program, called radKIDS, was hosted several times in March..”
Delphi to host self defense class for women

At the first press conference after the murders they said they didn’t believe there was danger to the general public. This led some of us to think there might be a speedy conclusion to this case, and we discussed it way back when. We never dreamed that two years later it would’ve solved.

 

[MistyWaters]

My comment was referring the reasons LE gave for calling off the search the night before the bodies were found". Bless those from the community who continued to look, but what if the perp was among them and took that opportunity to destroy evidence. imo

On the Dr Phil video posted just a bit upthread Abby’s mom talks about having no reason for suspecting foul play either.

Only in hindsight......