Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #102

[MistyWaters]

I seem to remember someone else was called on to identify the bodies, was it their pastor? Is that because of the death investigation that close family has to be cleared?

I don’t recall anything like that at all.

And about the shoes, Libby’s sister never said Libby was officially identified in that manner. Only that once the two bodies were discovered, she was asked about the shoe colour to aid the searchers in determining they’d found the victims who they were searching for.

I’d imagine that’s standard protocol, to eliminate the remote possibility the bodies were of two other victims.

 

[ocgrad]

I believe their families searched all night. But very hard to see in darkness.

I read in a timeline that MP and CP or some others went back out, like 12 to 2:30 am.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Well I do have to admit the GMA interview today didn't leave me much to dissect because I didn't learn much.

I have held off on posting my developing theory because I was really reluctant to 'go there' for many reasons, but now I am going to put some of my theory out there....hypothetically speaking so it hopefully does not get deleted.

Sorry...its long. Feel free to scroll and roll....

So...hypothetically speaking, if someone was parked at the DCS building early that day because they were there under the guise of 'working' then others may not have readily realized that this could be a 'real' tip at the time, or even today.

For example, if a LE vehicle was there on a regular basis to ticket for speeding, it may not register to people that because a police car was there occasionally, one may also have been there that day.

Hypothetically, if someone caught a blurry glimpse of a police car there on their dashboard camera from that day and submitted footage, or a person who was interviewed mentioned seeing a police car....it may have been followed-up on with some questions at the time but dismissed immediately if an officer denied doing speeding traffic stops that day or said that they had been there the day before, or yes they were there on the 13th but left before noon. (One caveat is that I have no knowledge as to whether or not police cars have GPS in them in Delphi.)

Perhaps the sketch that was provided just a few days after the murders was a sketch of a LE officer who had been spotted doing speeding stops that day but it was dismissed immediately because it didn't fit with what they thought could be possible....and now they know better.

Maybe they don't have DNA to tie him to the crime, or perhaps he was a part of the chain of custody at the crime scene and a piece of evidence went missing before it was logged and looking back at their records they now have now realized this based on discussions, but can't prove it. (In no way, shape or form do I think that they screwed up...i am basing this scenario on the premise that the suspect was always on step ahead.)

"You made mistakes"....

JMO....Can they be trying to put the pressure on one of their own to confess because they now know it had to be him? Maybe he has changed so much since then (physically, work performance, temperment, etc. that's why Carter mentioned it?)

JMO. They know who it is... but they can't tie him to the crime because he had a reason for being parked where he was in an official capacity and nobody ID'd him on the trail?

That guy on the bridge was so covered up....its tough to reconcile his build and walk with the dude in sketch #2. But JMO, he could be walking with the mannerisms of a cop.

JMO, It sure does look like he has a gun in that right pocket....as well as a long flashlight or baton stuffed in the right pant leg. If he had his uniform on underneath....it could account for how 'layered' he looks on top as well as what he could have on under those jeans.

Maybe the sketch closely matches the cop doing routine speeding stops but he says he was not on the bridge or trail and there's nothing to tie that same person to the crime scene. No DNA and no witness stating that they saw the cop in the uniform stopping Joe Blow for speeding at the highway dressed in something else on the trail later on.

Perhaps the 'tip' they are looking for is someone to say they saw a cop on the trail earlier that day. That places him where he shouldn't have been!

I'm aware of theory is 'out there' and it can be poked with holes, but I thought I would try it out anyhow.

JMO, my own speculations, hypothetically speaking etc.

 

[ocgrad]

I thought RL had cleared up that he was mistaken and that he was asked about his land on the 14th...? Not the 13th?

No. He was away in the afternoon in Logansport I believe. He got home and someone came to ask if they could go down behind his house to look on that side of the creek at 6:30 on the 13th.

 

[susiQ]

RSBM

I live in a pretty populated area (in PA). There is a small copse of trees behind my house and I'm two lots away from the busiest road in town. The deer are here - day, night, traffic, no traffic. Went out to my car the other day (early afternoon) and there's a doe and her fawn right in the yard like they own the place. Dusk and dawn are the scariest times to drive because they are active, will trot across streets and they don't look both ways. Dead quiet? Not here. I'm convinced they'll be the next designated domesticated animal.

Thanks for sharing I guess it can be both ways, for sure.

 

[MistyWaters]

Has LE ever said something along the lines of, “we believe there’s a killer or on the loose” or, “we believe this person will strike again?”

I haven’t seen it if so, and am genuinely curious if I missed it.

If not, to me, there’s a reason for that. They know way more than we do.

All JMO, and not trying to cause an uproar.

I think it goes without saying that everyone understands there’s a killer still walking the streets who’s responsible for each unsolved murder, not only in Delphi but anywhere throughout the world.

Even after this creature is captured, would LE ever guarantee Delphi is totally safe? Probably not because sadly, no place is immune from lunatics who murder innocent victims.

 

[skoogmagoo]

It is also possible the witness has a past record and is scared to approach LE fearing an arrest. RL had to serve prison time for violating his probation. MOO

I don't understand how anyone could feel safer by NOT turning in a killer of little girls. Besides, why would anyone be afraid of him ? He's not a tough guy, he's a killer of little girls !! Like the police said : "he's a coward" so the story of someone too afraid to turn him in doesn't hold water with me.

 

[Jabarn]

You aren’t alone. I found it strange and wondered if their shoes were found separate from their bodies. And then there was that random shoe found under the bridge..

Was there? I know shoes were mentioned, but I thought it was part of identifying the girls, and assumed they were attached the feet.

All the same, after the interview with John Douglas this morning, there seems to be a dark turn here in thinking about the case and it’s solution.

I was able to find a link to watch the interview on Twitter. A couple of things stood out to me.

One is Douglas’ thoughts about the pre-offense behavior. He didn’t elaborate (the interview was short). I know we have behavior clues available (link: FBI releases list of behavioral clues to help track down suspect in murders of teens near Indiana trail) but for the pre-offense behavior(s), maybe you look at an increased build of of stress, anger and maybe being fired, quitting a job, a break up, bad grades, problems with family...

Another thing Douglas mentioned is “victimology” and low risk victims. He thinks they were low risk until Abby and Libby went to the trail. I take that to mean he is thinking they were random victims of an opportunistic killer.

Finally, he describes BG as committing a high risk offense, given it was daylight, there were other people nearby. That could indicate a desperate person?

Anyway, some thoughts.

 

[ocgrad]

If it was suspected they were dead, accidentally falling off the bridge into either the river or the treed terrain would be a far greater likelihood than murder IMO.

Yes I think they did fear they had fallen and were severely injured and in an area that was difficult to access or perhaps even in the creek. They may have thought they were lost but the risk was pretty good they were injured. I can't understand waiting to go in after them past the crack of dawn.

 

[skoogmagoo]

It really does seem they’re back to square one. Most of what was said in that link is a repeat of what has already been expressed in regard to identification of the man in the first sketch.

It is also possible the witness has a past record and is scared to approach LE fearing an arrest. RL had to serve prison time for violating his probation. MOO

" since you might kill me, I'll just not turn you in for murdering two young girls. I feel much safer with you NOT locked up" said no one ever !

 

[Harmony 2]

The thread is closed for review.. check back not sure when it will reopen.

 

[Harmony 2]

Admin note:
It is fine to go over the details or sequence of events regarding how the girls were found deceased. However, casting heavy suspicion on people who have not been named a suspect or POI is egregious and against our terms of service.

The thread is open again...

 

[Cutiekitty]

Just talked with my resident Snapchat expert and I was wrong about pic time vs post time. The pic time is the actual time the pic was taken. Blows a small hole in the theory I was formulating. Just wanted to say sorry for posting nonsense.

 

[MassGuy]

Was there? I know shoes were mentioned, but I thought it was part of identifying the girls, and assumed they were attached the feet.

All the same, after the interview with John Douglas this morning, there seems to be a dark turn here in thinking about the case and it’s solution.

I was able to find a link to watch the interview on Twitter. A couple of things stood out to me.

One is Douglas’ thoughts about the pre-offense behavior. He didn’t elaborate (the interview was short). I know we have behavior clues available (link: FBI releases list of behavioral clues to help track down suspect in murders of teens near Indiana trail) but for the pre-offense behavior(s), maybe you look at an increased build of of stress, anger and maybe being fired, quitting a job, a break up, bad grades, problems with family...

Another thing Douglas mentioned is “victimology” and low risk victims. He thinks they were low risk until Abby and Libby went to the trail. I take that to mean he is thinking they were random victims of an opportunistic killer.

Finally, he describes BG as committing a high risk offense, given it was daylight, there were other people nearby. That could indicate a desperate person?

Anyway, some thoughts.

Yup, I agree with everything you’ve said.

Douglas talks about “precipitating stressors,” in his books.

These are traumatic life events, that act as triggers. As you said, relationship troubles, job loss, things like that.

It does appear that JD believes these victims were random, and this was a crime of opportunity.

These were not victims who lived “high risk lifestyles,” and as such, would not be likely targets of violence.

Hiking alone in an isolated area though, did increase their risk (obviously).

Attacking them in broad daylight, coupled with the risk of discovery, was not only “high risk” on his part, it was flat out stupid.

I think your characterization of him being “desperate,” is accurate. He clearly doesn’t have a great deal of self control.

 

[Wells]

Well I do have to admit the GMA interview today didn't leave me much to dissect because I didn't learn much.

I have held off on posting my developing theory because I was really reluctant to 'go there' for many reasons, but now I am going to put some of my theory out there....hypothetically speaking so it hopefully does not get deleted.

Sorry...its long. Feel free to scroll and roll....

So...hypothetically speaking, if someone was parked at the DCS building early that day because they were there under the guise of 'working' then others may not have readily realized that this could be a 'real' tip at the time, or even today.

For example, if a LE vehicle was there on a regular basis to ticket for speeding, it may not register to people that because a police car was there occasionally, one may also have been there that day.

Hypothetically, if someone caught a blurry glimpse of a police car there on their dashboard camera from that day and submitted footage, or a person who was interviewed mentioned seeing a police car....it may have been followed-up on with some questions at the time but dismissed immediately if an officer denied doing speeding traffic stops that day or said that they had been there the day before, or yes they were there on the 13th but left before noon. (One caveat is that I have no knowledge as to whether or not police cars have GPS in them in Delphi.)

Perhaps the sketch that was provided just a few days after the murders was a sketch of a LE officer who had been spotted doing speeding stops that day but it was dismissed immediately because it didn't fit with what they thought could be possible....and now they know better.

Maybe they don't have DNA to tie him to the crime, or perhaps he was a part of the chain of custody at the crime scene and a piece of evidence went missing before it was logged and looking back at their records they now have now realized this based on discussions, but can't prove it. (In no way, shape or form do I think that they screwed up...i am basing this scenario on the premise that the suspect was always on step ahead.)

"You made mistakes"....

JMO....Can they be trying to put the pressure on one of their own to confess because they now know it had to be him? Maybe he has changed so much since then (physically, work performance, temperment, etc. that's why Carter mentioned it?)

JMO. They know who it is... but they can't tie him to the crime because he had a reason for being parked where he was in an official capacity and nobody ID'd him on the trail?

That guy on the bridge was so covered up....its tough to reconcile his build and walk with the dude in sketch #2. But JMO, he could be walking with the mannerisms of a cop.

JMO, It sure does look like he has a gun in that right pocket....as well as a long flashlight or baton stuffed in the right pant leg. If he had his uniform on underneath....it could account for how 'layered' he looks on top as well as what he could have on under those jeans.

Maybe the sketch closely matches the cop doing routine speeding stops but he says he was not on the bridge or trail and there's nothing to tie that same person to the crime scene. No DNA and no witness stating that they saw the cop in the uniform stopping Joe Blow for speeding at the highway dressed in something else on the trail later on.

Perhaps the 'tip' they are looking for is someone to say they saw a cop on the trail earlier that day. That places him where he shouldn't have been!

I'm aware of theory is 'out there' and it can be poked with holes, but I thought I would try it out anyhow.

JMO, my own speculations, hypothetically speaking etc.

Well I do not necessarily agree, I think it's an excellent, well-thought out theory.

 

[Wells]

A little off topic but... believe I stumbled upon Websleuths in the Isabel C. Days. I live in Arizona and followed it from the beginning until the end, as many people in Arizona did. I was convinced her father was somehow involved. I was very wrong. I was one of many who were very wrong. One of the most helpful things I have found when looking at cases since then, is to assume I am wrong and that everything I am sure of is wrong.

 

[Backstroke10]

Well I do have to admit the GMA interview today didn't leave me much to dissect because I didn't learn much.

I have held off on posting my developing theory because I was really reluctant to 'go there' for many reasons, but now I am going to put some of my theory out there....hypothetically speaking so it hopefully does not get deleted.

Sorry...its long. Feel free to scroll and roll....

So...hypothetically speaking, if someone was parked at the DCS building early that day because they were there under the guise of 'working' then others may not have readily realized that this could be a 'real' tip at the time, or even today.

For example, if a LE vehicle was there on a regular basis to ticket for speeding, it may not register to people that because a police car was there occasionally, one may also have been there that day.

Hypothetically, if someone caught a blurry glimpse of a police car there on their dashboard camera from that day and submitted footage, or a person who was interviewed mentioned seeing a police car....it may have been followed-up on with some questions at the time but dismissed immediately if an officer denied doing speeding traffic stops that day or said that they had been there the day before, or yes they were there on the 13th but left before noon. (One caveat is that I have no knowledge as to whether or not police cars have GPS in them in Delphi.)

Perhaps the sketch that was provided just a few days after the murders was a sketch of a LE officer who had been spotted doing speeding stops that day but it was dismissed immediately because it didn't fit with what they thought could be possible....and now they know better.

Maybe they don't have DNA to tie him to the crime, or perhaps he was a part of the chain of custody at the crime scene and a piece of evidence went missing before it was logged and looking back at their records they now have now realized this based on discussions, but can't prove it. (In no way, shape or form do I think that they screwed up...i am basing this scenario on the premise that the suspect was always on step ahead.)

"You made mistakes"....

JMO....Can they be trying to put the pressure on one of their own to confess because they now know it had to be him? Maybe he has changed so much since then (physically, work performance, temperment, etc. that's why Carter mentioned it?)

JMO. They know who it is... but they can't tie him to the crime because he had a reason for being parked where he was in an official capacity and nobody ID'd him on the trail?

That guy on the bridge was so covered up....its tough to reconcile his build and walk with the dude in sketch #2. But JMO, he could be walking with the mannerisms of a cop.

JMO, It sure does look like he has a gun in that right pocket....as well as a long flashlight or baton stuffed in the right pant leg. If he had his uniform on underneath....it could account for how 'layered' he looks on top as well as what he could have on under those jeans.

Maybe the sketch closely matches the cop doing routine speeding stops but he says he was not on the bridge or trail and there's nothing to tie that same person to the crime scene. No DNA and no witness stating that they saw the cop in the uniform stopping Joe Blow for speeding at the highway dressed in something else on the trail later on.

Perhaps the 'tip' they are looking for is someone to say they saw a cop on the trail earlier that day. That places him where he shouldn't have been!

I'm aware of theory is 'out there' and it can be poked with holes, but I thought I would try it out anyhow.

JMO, my own speculations, hypothetically speaking etc.

I think you have a great theory! MOO

 

[NickoD]

<modsnipped quoted post>
Do you think it is normal to wait so long to begin the search that morning if there were 2 girls who were potentially seriously injured? Wouldn't minutes matter if there were a possibility that they were injured so that they were unable to respond to calls? Wouldn't a rescue operation have been organized much earlier and begin at daybreak?
Unless they had a small search crew of professionals who were trained to not destroy evidence out and it was never stated. Otherwise it seems like they were only thinking of recovering their bodies by that morning.

<modsnip: Please do not discuss removed posts or moderation on the thread.>

Yes, minutes matter but the safety of the searchers takes priority. When searching the first priority is individual searcher safety, then search party safety, then of course subject safety. You’re not going to help anyone if you’re injured yourself in a search.

In addition, volunteers are well-meaning but not trained. Can try to pair volunteers with searchers but realistically speaking it’s easier when it’s just the team. It takes a fair amount of organization to ensure that volunteers will not hurt the search efforts. From news accounts, there were hundreds there that morning. That can be a logistical nightmare.

SAR always goes out there thinking this is a rescue. And when it’s determined it’s not it hits like a ton of bricks.

In my opinion and speculation, trained search parties started earlier in the morning as volunteers also started showing up. The volunteers probably went out later due to logistics.

Again, MOO.

 

[Charlot123]

Well I do have to admit the GMA interview today didn't leave me much to dissect because I didn't learn much.

I have held off on posting my developing theory because I was really reluctant to 'go there' for many reasons, but now I am going to put some of my theory out there....hypothetically speaking so it hopefully does not get deleted.

Sorry...its long. Feel free to scroll and roll....

So...hypothetically speaking, if someone was parked at the DCS building early that day because they were there under the guise of 'working' then others may not have readily realized that this could be a 'real' tip at the time, or even today.

For example, if a LE vehicle was there on a regular basis to ticket for speeding, it may not register to people that because a police car was there occasionally, one may also have been there that day.

Hypothetically, if someone caught a blurry glimpse of a police car there on their dashboard camera from that day and submitted footage, or a person who was interviewed mentioned seeing a police car....it may have been followed-up on with some questions at the time but dismissed immediately if an officer denied doing speeding traffic stops that day or said that they had been there the day before, or yes they were there on the 13th but left before noon. (One caveat is that I have no knowledge as to whether or not police cars have GPS in them in Delphi.)

Perhaps the sketch that was provided just a few days after the murders was a sketch of a LE officer who had been spotted doing speeding stops that day but it was dismissed immediately because it didn't fit with what they thought could be possible....and now they know better.

Maybe they don't have DNA to tie him to the crime, or perhaps he was a part of the chain of custody at the crime scene and a piece of evidence went missing before it was logged and looking back at their records they now have now realized this based on discussions, but can't prove it. (In no way, shape or form do I think that they screwed up...i am basing this scenario on the premise that the suspect was always on step ahead.)

"You made mistakes"....

JMO....Can they be trying to put the pressure on one of their own to confess because they now know it had to be him? Maybe he has changed so much since then (physically, work performance, temperment, etc. that's why Carter mentioned it?)

JMO. They know who it is... but they can't tie him to the crime because he had a reason for being parked where he was in an official capacity and nobody ID'd him on the trail?

That guy on the bridge was so covered up....its tough to reconcile his build and walk with the dude in sketch #2. But JMO, he could be walking with the mannerisms of a cop.

JMO, It sure does look like he has a gun in that right pocket....as well as a long flashlight or baton stuffed in the right pant leg. If he had his uniform on underneath....it could account for how 'layered' he looks on top as well as what he could have on under those jeans.

Maybe the sketch closely matches the cop doing routine speeding stops but he says he was not on the bridge or trail and there's nothing to tie that same person to the crime scene. No DNA and no witness stating that they saw the cop in the uniform stopping Joe Blow for speeding at the highway dressed in something else on the trail later on.

Perhaps the 'tip' they are looking for is someone to say they saw a cop on the trail earlier that day. That places him where he shouldn't have been!

I'm aware of theory is 'out there' and it can be poked with holes, but I thought I would try it out anyhow.

JMO, my own speculations, hypothetically speaking etc.

It is very interesting. I am not sure your theory explains the situation with the DNA. I strongly feel they do have some DNA to rule out suspects. Maybe they had several sources of DNA (material from the nails, hair shaft), and part of it disappeared? This could explain them having some, but not all, DNA collected, and would prove your theory. However, i’d rather err on the side of Delphi police being disorganized than malicious...but still, a captivating theory!

I don’t necessarily think it was a policeman. But in general, I subscribe to the idea of it being “our local”. I imagine living in a small city... I assume they have the concept of “own”. “Own” doctor, lawyer, teacher, librarian, priest, cop, 7-11 vendor, jeweler, hairdresser, dentist, mortician, jailkeeper, who not. I agree that someone was seen and disregarded, but probably not because it was a “cop among cops” (“easy to hide” factor), but maybe, because it was a doctor who delivered local babies, or a lawyer that negotiated a good probation deal, or own great teacher, or someone equally positive (I am mentioning these professions just as examples).

I think that unless LE totally dropped the ball, it will be one of Delphi’s “owns”, but not necessarily a cop.

 

[ab01]

Yup, I agree with everything you’ve said.

Douglas talks about “precipitating stressors,” in his books.

These are traumatic life events, that act as triggers. As you said, relationship troubles, job loss, things like that.

It does appear that JD believes these victims were random, and this was a crime of opportunity.

These were not victims who lived “high risk lifestyles,” and as such, would not be likely targets of violence.

Hiking alone in an isolated area though, did increase their risk (obviously).

Attacking them in broad daylight, coupled with the risk of discovery, was not only “high risk” on his part, it was flat out stupid.

I think your characterization of him being “desperate,” is accurate. He clearly doesn’t have a great deal of self control.

Especially if this was a first murder attempt type fantasy

People that begin to have these thoughts tend to fantasize about committing such acts

They obsess about it to the point that they make plans to put it into action

It can be trivial to normal people as though if those two girls enter that bridge I'm going to go for it here's my chance

The risks are outweighed by the self need and gratification in the early crimes of perps that do these things

As they get away with it once they realize the mistakes they made and will use those experiences as lessons

Not in away to neccesarily control their urges but as a more tactical plan so as to not get caught

Its why many murderers are caught before they can become experienced serial killers

They have little self control already but when you couple that with lack of experience you see crimes that are very quick, rushed, and sloppy

Its my belief that every prolific serial killer begins with a crime that is committed extremely sloppy and poorly executed

The one thing that allows them all to escape detection on their first attempts to go on to commit more violent crimes is simply luck

All first time killers that go on to be serial killers are just extremely lucky no to be caught after their first crimes