Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #103

[sunshineray]

It may not matter in the grand scheme of things, but I've seen several references to the body of water being a "river", and it's not. It's a creek. One of the main differences between the two is that a creek is usually much smaller, from water depth to width. I know some use the two interchangeably, but when "river" is used, in context of this discussion it may make it more difficult to imagine the girls crossing it. I've seen the creek so low that, in some places, water seems to be barely more than an inch. It's been low enough at times that you can walk straight across it, either walking on the mud or using the rocks as stepping stones. And then, 6 feet away, it changes depth again. On the 13th and 14th it was pretty much its average depth, but even then there would've been places in it where it wasn't super deep. I'm 4'10" and I've been able to easily cross it even after rain, though you have to kind of know where to walk. At most it's been up to my waist but not in every single spot.

I don't think the girls would've gone across it on their own volition, though. I think they were either forced through it or ran through it in panic. It's been regularly referenced that it was a nice day, but in context it was a nice day for February-not, like, in general. It was still chilly outside. The creek waters would've been freezing. It was still winter. Even at its lowest points down through there, they wouldn't have been able to cross it without at least getting their shins wet-probably more like their knees and maybe even waists depending on where they went over. I wouldn't have done that just for the fun of it. Way too cold.

We don't really know where Abby and Libby crossed, only where they were found.

I know we call what are really creeks, rivers around where I live. Far Mill River is very swallow and is what Vermonters would probably call a brook haha.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

I think LE knows who BG is, but they need more to secure a conviction before bringing charges forward. If they have DNA, they are not confident it's enough to secure a conviction and they need the last piece for a slam dunk.

 

[BlueShoe]

If I was running from someone I sure as heck wouldn't take time to take off my shoes. I'd run like h--l. JMO

I was referring to the possibility that they crossed the river willingly planning to take photos in the cemetery. This would be before they knew they were being followed. Taking off their shoes makes sense. In my hypothetical scenario they were overtaken suddenly after they had crossed. MOO

 

[sunshineray]

I think LE knows who BG is, but they need more to secure a conviction before bringing charges forward. If they have DNA, they are not confident it's enough to secure a conviction and they need the last piece for a slam dunk.

Maybe they were able to narrow it down to a family with a lot of branches. They maybe even have it narrowed down to certain members, plural. Building that case could take some time, more time than people want but necessary for conviction. I pray they have good DNA and a suspect under surveillance.

 

[MistyWaters]

I've been checking in here every day in the hopes of reading of an arrest. The more time goes by it seems less hopeful to me that they will catch this guy, until perhaps he murders again and if they find DNA linking him to both crimes. That is if he hasn't already murdered again, I dread to think. Sorry to be such a pessimist.

I was reflecting back on all the high optimism when the first sketch was released and thinking about the families. It must be very difficult for them to rejuvenate that same level of confidence, beginning in a new direction once again.

'Somebody knows him': Relatives hope sketch leads police to Delphi murder suspect
July 17, 2017
“You look at him, it puts a face to the guy,” said Becky Patty, Libby’s grandmother. She and her husband Mike have studied the face in the sketch over and over, ever since investigators released it to them last Thursday.

“That’s one of the first things we asked when we saw this, Becky said she asked police. “Are you sure, can you hang your hat on this?”

“They said yes,” Becky added.

The Pattys say don’t recognize the man in the sketch. They’re hoping someone, somewhere will.

“Somebody out there will know that face,” said Mike Patty.

“Somebody does, somebody knows him,” said Anna Williams, Abby’s mother....”
https://www.wthr.com/article/somebo...-sketch-leads-police-to-delphi-murder-suspect

 

[sunshineray]

I was referring to the possibility that they crossed the river willingly planning to take photos in the cemetery. This would be before they knew they were being followed. Taking off their shoes makes sense. In my hypothetical scenario they were overtaken suddenly after they had crossed. MOO

They were ordered, "Down the hill". That much we know from ISP. I don't think they went willingly down to the creek. JMO

 

[nearsouth]

I think LE knows who BG is, but they need more to secure a conviction before bringing charges forward. If they have DNA, they are not confident it's enough to secure a conviction and they need the last piece for a slam dunk.

I think so too...

I was really hoping by now a family member or co-worker would recognize the clothing or something else unique about the person in the video.

I still watch it sometimes and even go frame by frame to see if I can recognize what's under that blue jacket. It's just really hard to even get a good outline b/c it seems like there are at least two items he seems to be holding up with his right hand. JMO obviously.

 

[BlueShoe]

I don't doubt that they would not mind being tardy for their ride except they reportedly stopped answering the phone almost immediately if I remember correctly. I think they would have answered if they were at the cemetery, or sent text they were going to be late meeting their ride.

I wish they would have avoided the bridge altogether on 2/13/17 and just took photos in the cemetery....

MOO

I don't think they ever got to the cemetery. MOO

 

[sunshineray]

I was reflecting back on all the high optimism when the first sketch was released and thinking about the families. It must be very difficult for them to rejuvenate that same level of confidence, beginning in a new direction once again.

'Somebody knows him': Relatives hope sketch leads police to Delphi murder suspect
July 17, 2017
“You look at him, it puts a face to the guy,” said Becky Patty, Libby’s grandmother. She and her husband Mike have studied the face in the sketch over and over, ever since investigators released it to them last Thursday.

“That’s one of the first things we asked when we saw this, Becky said she asked police. “Are you sure, can you hang your hat on this?”

“They said yes,” Becky added.

The Pattys say don’t recognize the man in the sketch. They’re hoping someone, somewhere will.

“Somebody out there will know that face,” said Mike Patty.

“Somebody does, somebody knows him,” said Anna Williams, Abby’s mother....”

How heartbreaking and confusing the sketch change must have been for them unless they were also told we have very good evidence to back this up, now we're on the right track.

 

[BlueShoe]

They were ordered, "Down the hill". That much we know from ISP. I don't think they went willingly down to the creek. JMO

We don't know that they were ordered down the hill. Maybe he was saying, "I just came down the hill." It could be an order, as you say, but it could be part of a sentence. MOO

 

[mtnlites]

We don't know that they were ordered down the hill. Maybe he was saying, "I just came down the hill." It could be an order, as you say, but it could be part of a sentence. MOO

My question has always been which hill. I've always assumed that they were accosted at the end of the bridge, shortly after Libby took the video of BG, and with the time crunch that makes sense. But we don't really know for sure.

 

[sunshineray]

We don't know that they were ordered down the hill. Maybe he was saying, "I just came down the hill." It could be an order, as you say, but it could be part of a sentence. MOO

We know he said "Guys" then some unintelligible things, whether intentionally taking out or because of frightful chaos going on. Then what sounds very much like a no-nonsense order to me of "Down the hill". I don't think ISP would intentionally give the pubic that impression and say they were killed shortly after the meet up with BG, if that wasn't the case. AJMO

 

[kc1023]

I was referring to the possibility that they crossed the river willingly planning to take photos in the cemetery. This would be before they knew they were being followed. Taking off their shoes makes sense. In my hypothetical scenario they were overtaken suddenly after they had crossed. MOO

Respectfully, maybe in July they would willingly traipse across the creek but no one in their right mind would willingly do that in February in Indiana. It only makes sense IMO if they were running for their lives and either their adrenaline kicked in and they went on their own or they were ordered to do so and the threat was so great they complied. The random "warm" day confuses this issue but it was still very much winter except for a few sunny warmer than usual hours that day and the water would have been ice cold and unbearable in normal circumstances. I actually find it hard to believe crossing the creek was part of BG's plan as he himself wouldn't want to venture in that water either. MOO

 

[BlueShoe]

We know he said "Guys" then some unintelligible things, whether intentionally taking out or because of frightful chaos going on. Then what sounds very much like a no-nonsense order to me of "Down the hill". I don't think ISP would intentionally give the pubic that impression and say they were killed shortly after the meet up with BG, if that wasn't the case. AJMO

I've never been able to follow the thinking of ISP, but I've always thought that the phrases and words we have been given were perhaps the clearest and least disturbing things that BG said. I've always felt the main purpose was for voice recognition, although it sure is interesting to try to figure out additional context. MOO

 

[MistyWaters]

I think LE knows who BG is, but they need more to secure a conviction before bringing charges forward. If they have DNA, they are not confident it's enough to secure a conviction and they need the last piece for a slam dunk.

If they knew who it was, wouldn’t LE have already spoken directly to the suspect and everyone who’s connected to him in any way, instead wasting time appealing to the general public for that one tip by the hit or miss approach, introducing a sketch of somebody with a 20 year possible age span who bears a “ball park” resemblance?

Nothing in that PC left me with the feeling they know who they’re looking for, right down to they “may” have spoken to him and they’re only at the beginning.

While LE may have their eye in several possibilities, I do believe their ask is genuine, that they still require “one tip” from somebody to solve this case. The only reason for that that I can think if is because their evidence as yet has not pointed in any one single direction.

 

[mtnlites]

Respectfully, maybe in July they would willingly traipse across the creek but no one in their right mind would willingly do that in February in Indiana. It only makes sense IMO if they were running for their lives and either their adrenaline kicked in and they went on their own or they were ordered to do so and the threat was so great they complied. The random "warm" day confuses this issue but it was still very much winter except for a few sunny warmer than usual hours that day and the water would have been ice cold and unbearable in normal circumstances. I actually find it hard to believe crossing the creek was part of BG's plan as he himself wouldn't want to venture in that water either. MOO

Yeah, that's what I was *trying* to say in my long-winded post. While there are parts of the creek that are super shallow, on that day at that time of year even at its lowest crossing point they would've gotten their ankles or shins wet at the very least and their waists wet at the most. While it was definitely possible to cross it, I don't know many who would by choice. That's freezing cold water.

 

[BlueShoe]

Respectfully, maybe in July they would willingly traipse across the creek but no one in their right mind would willingly do that in February in Indiana. It only makes sense IMO if they were running for their lives and either their adrenaline kicked in and they went on their own or they were ordered to do so and the threat was so great they complied. The random "warm" day confuses this issue but it was still very much winter except for a few sunny warmer than usual hours that day and the water would have been ice cold and unbearable in normal circumstances. I actually find it hard to believe crossing the creek was part of BG's plan as he himself wouldn't want to venture in that water either. MOO

Good point, and you are probably right. However (a bit of devil's advocate here), I have known teens to run in-and-out of lake shore water for fun, even if icy cold. I'm becoming more convinced that Abby and Libby did not do this voluntarily, but if the water was quite shallow and the "river" not too wide, I can still consider the possibility. MOO

 

[Tippy Lynn]

If they knew who it was, wouldn’t LE have already spoken directly to the suspect and everyone who’s connected to him in any way, instead wasting time appealing to the general public for that one tip by the hit or miss approach, introducing a sketch of somebody with a 20 year possible age span who bears a “ball park” resemblance?

Nothing in that PC left me with the feeling they know who they’re looking for, right down to they “may” have spoken to him and they’re only at the beginning.

While LE may have their eye in several possibilities, I do believe their ask is genuine, that they still require “one tip” from somebody to solve this case. The only reason for that that I can think if is because their evidence as yet has not pointed in any one single direction.

I could be wrong, but it's possible and IMO it's a logical conclusion at this point.

I'm sure they have talked to the suspect and others. However, if LE isn't getting what they need from their discussions/questions or if nobody is cooperating they have to keep moving forward. It's a slippery slope for LE and they need to play their cards right.
jmo

 

[MistyWaters]

I've never been able to follow the thinking of ISP, but I've always thought that the phrases and words we have been given were perhaps the clearest and least disturbing things that BG said. I've always felt the main purpose was for voice recognition, although it sure is interesting to try to figure out additional context. MOO

As DTH involved “criminal activity” other than an abduction forcing the girls “down the hill” what other circumstances might it involve?

“Indiana State Police released a photo of a suspect, which was taken by Liberty on her cell phone the day that she died. She also captured a man’s voice saying, “down the hill” during what police call “criminal activity.” ...”
Delphi Murders: Investigators say internet rumors can hinder search for Libby & Abby’s killer

ISP also recently released this statement:
“This is the face of the suspect that goes with body of the video captured on Liberty German's cell phone minutes before she and Abigail Williams were murdered“
New 'Face' of the Delphi Murder Suspect

 

[sumzero]

I was reflecting back on all the high optimism when the first sketch was released and thinking about the families. It must be very difficult for them to rejuvenate that same level of confidence, beginning in a new direction once again.

'Somebody knows him': Relatives hope sketch leads police to Delphi murder suspect
July 17, 2017
“You look at him, it puts a face to the guy,” said Becky Patty, Libby’s grandmother. She and her husband Mike have studied the face in the sketch over and over, ever since investigators released it to them last Thursday.

“That’s one of the first things we asked when we saw this, Becky said she asked police. “Are you sure, can you hang your hat on this?”

“They said yes,” Becky added.

The Pattys say don’t recognize the man in the sketch. They’re hoping someone, somewhere will.

“Somebody out there will know that face,” said Mike Patty.

“Somebody does, somebody knows him,” said Anna Williams, Abby’s mother....”

This is one reason why I'm skeptical about the new sketch. If LE didn't release it right away, they must've been skeptical, too. I'm not sold on the idea that their investigative work since then has made them confident this is now the real suspect. Doug Carter's approach is always to express supreme confidence in every LE action. But they were dead wrong about the first sketch. Why should we not be skeptical about the second sketch? For 2+ years, he's led people to believe the case was close to being solved. LE just needed that one tip. He can repeat himself ad nauseam, but at some point, without results, fewer people will buy what he's selling. JMO.