Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #103

[mtnlites]

Just a clarification, LE have stated the words were spoken during criminal activity, not shortly before.

“She also captured a man's voice saying "down the hill" during what police call "criminal activity.”
DELPHI: Premature to link St. Louis attack

We don't know when they start measuring the "criminal activity", though. If they consider the moment BG approached them as the start of the crime then that would make a difference. Or if they consider the moment that Libby started recording as the beginning of the criminal activity.

Just throwing that out there. I mostly believe that the "down the hill", though casual sounding, was still him ordering them to leave. LE has been unclear about several things, though, so I leave room for interpretation.

 

[Cutiekitty]

When Kelsi appeared on the Dr Phil show she said when the bodies were discovered, she was asked for the shoe colour by the searchers so they could ID the bodies found were those of the two girls. She never said she was asked to identify stray shoes found somewhere.

They could come off, but I don’t think they did. I don’t think they crossed the creek either. You are right, the water would’ve been really cold. It’s possible, but if it was part of the master plan it is really strange to me. Staying open minded because anything is possible

 

[Cutiekitty]

I'd never even thought about the bridge in terms of "north end" or "south end" until this crime so I had to pull up a map myself and look at it because I can never remember which way is which...

You can walk down to the water from both locations. It's slightly more direct from the south end because from the north you have to go over a little embankment and then kind of veer off the trail for a few feet, but you can still get there.

When I first heard that the bodies were found in the location in which they were recovered, I just assumed that they'd crossed back over the bridge. I've changed my mind a few times since then.

Thank you! Google earth just can’t give the perspective that a person who has been there does.

 

[mtnlites]

When Kelsi appeared on the Dr Phil show she said when the bodies were discovered, she was asked for the shoe colour by the searchers so they could ID the bodies found were those of the two girls. She never said she was asked to identify stray shoes found somewhere.

Yeah, I don't believe the shoes came off. I think that it was probably something like the searcher saw the shoe first because the rest of Libby's body was covered with debris and they didn't want to get any closer to avoid contaminating the crime scene. Asking what color her shoes were was a respectful way of identifying Libby at that point. Better than shouting, "OMG! Everyone come over here now!"

 

[JnRyan]

IMO they shouldn't have announced that the incoming tips were resulting in arrests for different crimes. I think that could definitely be a deterrent to someone who has information but also has concerns that a look into THEIR background could mean jail time for something unrelated. I do think that the sheer volume of tips has also created some chaos.

Even if they didn't announce it, the circus surrounding the arrest of the owner of the property where the girls were found didn't help. LE could no more hide that from the media than a 4 ton elephant could hide in a strawberry field. I'm sure many are thinking he wouldn't have been caught if this had not happened on his property and now his prison sentence is what, 2 years. He would have gotten away with what he did except for wrong place, wrong time.

 

[mtnlites]

Thank you! Google earth just can’t give the perspective that a person who has been there does.

It's weird because I've tried looking at Google Earth for this area and none of it looks familiar. Totally different view from being on the ground. Earlier on there were people asking why the girls didn't just run to Abby's house. As the crow flies, it wasn't far and when you're looking at it from a map it appears feasible. In reality, though, there are hills and ditches and fences and holes in the ground...And then, of course, you add the panic/fear/confusion on top of that...

 

[sunshineray]

This is one reason why I'm skeptical about the new sketch. If LE didn't release it right away, they must've been skeptical, too. I'm not sold on the idea that their investigative work since then has made them confident this is now the real suspect. Doug Carter's approach is always to express supreme confidence in every LE action. But they were dead wrong about the first sketch. Why should we not be skeptical about the second sketch? For 2+ years, he's led people to believe the case was close to being solved. LE just needed that one tip. He can repeat himself ad nauseam, but at some point, without results, fewer people will buy what he's selling. JMO.

I think they may have recently run down that first released sketch guy. This led to a dead end. The investigators went back and finally decided to test the little bit of DNA evidence they had (the girls were found right next to a water source so DNA might have been scant). They needed to gamblewith that precious DNA the had. Recent uses that led to captures in old cold cases might have convinced them it could be the best means they had to bring to light a suspect or at the least narrow the pool down. I think it did just that and maybe showed that the very first sketch done was closer to those DNA results. A totally different investigative strategy used, just like ISP said in the April PC. AJMO

 

[Tiger Stripes]

Not only a size disadvantage but as far as we see he was dressed in a way with very little skin exposure for the girls to scratch or attack effectively. I think he did that intentionally.

BBM

That intentionality tells me that the suspect is very much an organized killer. MOO

 

[mahoolin]

IMO they shouldn't have announced that the incoming tips were resulting in arrests for different crimes. I think that could definitely be a deterrent to someone who has information but also has concerns that a look into THEIR background could mean jail time for something unrelated. I do think that the sheer volume of tips has also created some chaos.

I agree about the deterrent, but hope those cases are over...

I have no knowledge of procedure, but assume with the volume of tips to sift through a few guidelines were established for the extra help. For example, when to pass on for a second look as opposed to disregarding. No matter how good, there are nuances and personal connections only the locals can interpret. All of the varying points of view and interpretations are needed though, local or not.

At the pc it was insinuated they've possibly already interviewed the killer. (paraphrasing) I hope there's some in-depth review of the original tips happening right now as well as soul-searching among "someone" with either evidence or strong suspicions. (Do the right thing ...don't carry that around unnecessarily).

Praying this is solved soon, the poor families must be so discouraged.

OK, done rambling.... MOO, JMO, MHOO

 

[Cutiekitty]

It's weird because I've tried looking at Google Earth for this area and none of it looks familiar. Totally different view from being on the ground. Earlier on there were people asking why the girls didn't just run to Abby's house. As the crow flies, it wasn't far and when you're looking at it from a map it appears feasible. In reality, though, there are hills and ditches and fences and holes in the ground...And then, of course, you add the panic/fear/confusion on top of that...

Google earth photos make it look a lot bigger than it actually is. I am a nerd and used the measurement tool just to get a better perspective. I used the path ruler instead of a straight line to try to get as close as possible to the actual distances. It’s may be right at a mile from the CPS building to the crime scene.

 

[MistyWaters]

Yeah, I don't believe the shoes came off. I think that it was probably something like the searcher saw the shoe first because the rest of Libby's body was covered with debris and they didn't want to get any closer to avoid contaminating the crime scene. Asking what color her shoes were was a respectful way of identifying Libby at that point. Better than shouting, "OMG! Everyone come over here now!"

Exactly. It was handled in the way an organized search team is instructed. On the Dr Phil show, Kelsi has such a difficult time even talking about the body discoveries. Even though it was almost 24 hours later, it was very clear nobody expected that to be the outcome. I think everyone watching felt her raw emotion and as she was talking about someone asking her for the shoe colour to ID the bodies that were found, if time could be rolled back I’m sure everyone desperately wished she was about to say she got it wrong. “Nope, didn’t find anything, they’ll be home later!”

 

[anotherjenny]

This is just my opinion -

LE appeared adamantly confident the guy in the first sketch was the murderer and throughout that time many, if not most of the people posting here were utterly convinced LE knew who he was and were just building their case. ....Even though LE persistently asked for that one tip from somebody who knows this person.

As LE are still asking for that one tip, that one piece of the puzzle but now the new sketch resembles how someone appeared over two years ago so that’s why this time around I genuinely believe they’re asking for what they need.

If there was adequate evidence to solve it by their own means I think an arrest would’ve occurred by now, regardless of a sketch, because it’s not as if lack of resources have been an issue. Sifting through 42,000 tips, talking to more than 1,100 people requires a huge amount of manpower. I’m truly amazed at the priority this case have been given so far and so I hope LE does gets that one tip.

I agree. So many months went by before releasing the first sketch. So odd when they had one within days of the murders and then waited over 2 years to release a "new" one. Billboards nationwide initially, but now he's a local, or at the very least has ties to the area. I don't know what to think anymore. We may all be shocked when the killer is identified because of it staring at everyone "in plain site" all along.

 

[MistyWaters]

Google earth photos make it look a lot bigger than it actually is. I am a nerd and used the measurement tool just to get a better perspective. I used the path ruler instead of a straight line to try to get as close as possible to the actual distances. It’s maybe right at a mile from the CPS building to the crime scene.

I’m curious, are you able to find a link where Carter directly connected the suspect to the driver of the vehicle parked at the CPS building? I think this might be an assumption that may be incorrect.

Immediately after the PC I thought I noticed media reports claiming that too but it appears they’ve since been edited. After he spoke of the suspect, he then went on to talk about the vehicle by adding the word “also”, as it was additional information they were seeking without stating the reason. Ever since the clarification, the vehicle has never been mentioned again. Not on GMA nor in requesting specific details in tips. Maybe the person whom they were seeking contacted them immediately?

 

[zencompass]

It is fascinating to read the great insights and different perspectives everyone has put forth on this thread.

My initial thought was that the perpetrator went to the area, which he knew like the back of his hand, purposely and well-prepared to kill a female. JMO

He ended up killing two precious young girls - because he was well-prepared and able to.

Then I read a few more posts on this thread and think - wow- I never thought of that! or that!

So, I am quite possibly way off track but the thought of him going there with the sole purpose of murdering a female is still on my mind.

I hope and pray that the L.E. get enough solid evidence for an arrest and a conviction.

I still believe that this will happen soon. Maybe it's just hope but maybe it's not.

 

[zencompass]

Thank you! Google earth just can’t give the perspective that a person who has been there does.

Dear @Cutiekitty,

Isn't that the truth!

Many thanks to @mtnlites for sharing such valuable information with us! You are greatly appreciated!

 

[anotherjenny]

I’m curious, are you able to find a link where Carter directly connected the suspect to the driver of the vehicle parked at the CPS building? I think this might be an assumption that may be incorrect.

Immediately after the PC I thought I noticed media reports claiming that too but it appears they’ve since been edited. After he spoke of the suspect, he then went on to talk about the vehicle by adding the word “also”, as it was additional information they were seeking without stating the reason. Ever since the clarification, the vehicle has never been mentioned again. Not on GMA nor in requesting specific details in tips. Maybe the person whom they were seeking contacted them immediately?

Maybe the SP told LE he saw a guy hitchhiking or walking that was picked up by this "vehicle " and gave a description of said hitchiker and LE was trying to coorberate that line. IDK. I'm so confused at this point. I hope they are getting the info they need to get this guy.

 

[Theforeigner]

When Kelsi appeared on the Dr Phil show she said when the bodies were discovered, she was asked for the shoe colour by the searchers so they could ID the bodies found were those of the two girls. She never said she was asked to identify stray shoes found somewhere.

Oh no this , to me, indicate that the girls probably was found without clothes, only wearing shoes, and that their faces was not recognizable .
That the only thing they could be identified by, at the time of being found, was their shoes.
I really hope I am wrong about this

 

[Ursamajr]

MOO shoes fly off when running as fast as a person can.

Observation and experience. I don't know what kind of shoes Libby was wearing but Abby was wearing Converse. As a Converse wearer for about 30 years - those things don't come off unless you undo the laces a bit. The way they are shaped they hug all the way above your ankle. They do make below the ankle versions but Abby looks to be wearing the high tops and they look like they are laced all the way to the top. I've also swam with them on (don't ask ) and they wont come off.

Can I mention a bit of an over the top thought I have always had? In the photo on the bridge, Abby's Converse have always stuck out to me. They are the only thing in the picture that are pure white. Those white soles get dirty the first day you wear them. There also are no shadow cast by her feet. Now I can't think of any reason that the picture would be edited and I seriously doubt it was - but those shoes always stuck out to me. Almost like they were edited to look super bright. Crazy thought, I know. Thanks for reading.

 

[rainwaterstill]

I wonder if it is the lady with her dog or the one who stopped to see if someone needed assistance. Because I think it is one of those two.

For the protection of the witness(es, and their future testimony during a trial) I am very uncomfortable speculating about who saw BG when and under exactly what specific circumstances. In the past, there has been at least one killer who logged onto Websleuths to see what was being said about the murder that person committed and whether their name was being mentioned as a suspect. (It was.)

 

[mtnlites]

Oh no this , to me, indicate that the girls probably was found without clothes, only wearing shoes, and that their faces was not recognizable .
That the only thing they could be identified by, at the time of being found, was their shoes.
I really hope I am wrong about this

To me it just means that a half-hearted attempt had been made to "cover" them up with forest debris and that only Libby's shoe was really visible. The searcher may not have wanted to get any closer. My husband works in SAR here in our state and that's one of the things they tell volunteers in their briefing-when you see something from a distance that you think might be important then freeze exactly where you are and call out for a SAR person. Don't try to pick the item up, if it's covered then don't remove any sticks/leaves/etc. that's on it, don't walk any closer.