Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #110

[tresir2012]

The witness statements are hearsay at this point, and even the 2:07 SC was a third-party timestamp that may or may not reflect the actual time the photo was taken. All LE has said is that there's a witness, and that the girls died within minutes of the video. Those statement alone do not support any specific timeframe, IMO.

That said, we can all put together bits and pieces of information and probably guess a close timeline, but none of it's based on pure fact alone.

Only the autopsy is fact and we're not getting to see that any time soon so in it's absence we have family statements. I do put those above hearsay in my mind, as after LE, they are the most knowledgeable. Also, witness statements will ultimately be related in court as evidence and will not then be hearsay.

YMMV

 

[TL4S]

Only the autopsy is fact and we're not getting to see that any time soon so in it's absence we have family statements. I do put those above hearsay in my mind, as after LE, they are the most knowledgeable. Also, witness statements will ultimately be related in court as evidence and will not then be hearsay.

YMMV

I don't dismiss the family or witness statements entirely. But I have no way of knowing where their information came from or its veracity. My timeline isn't based on the witness statements, but it so happens to fit in them perfectly. (where's the clown emoji?)

 

[tresir2012]

I don't dismiss the family or witness statements entirely. But I have no way of knowing where their information came from or its veracity. My timeline isn't based on the witness statements, but it so happens to fit in them perfectly. (where's the clown emoji?)

We just take it on faith at this time, right, but one day, in court, the specifics will be known. Just hoping that won't be too long now.

 

[kathryann]

What is IIRC?

 

[Jax49]

What is IIRC?

If I Remember/Recall Correctly

 

[rainwaterstill]

Indiana Packers
Bicycle Bridge Road
RL farm
All local SOs
Local train stoppage to search tracks

Request to the public:
for duffel/backpack sightings
A hitchhiker
now a parked car and driver at CPS

MOO- After the girls were discovered, I think it is safe to say that LE made a red-hot beeline to that packing plant and residences of local RSO's. I have wondered if the killer was an out-of-town friend/relative of one of the packing plant employees or RSOs.

 

[pppsuedio]

I still don't buy that LE hasn't arrested BG because they are "building a case." LE doesn't build a case-they collect evidence and protect the public. The DA builds the case. Double jeporady applies after a trial, not before. A person can most definitely be arrested more than once for the same crime as long as there is probable cause. They can find all kinds of reasons to arrest someone if they suspect them and want to turn on the heat: obstructing justice, lying to LE, or even some non-murder related issue if it means they get more time with the POI. In cases where it's an open secret about who did it, LE has held back because the evidence is too circumstantial to sometimes even generate a warrant. Still, cases are won on circumstantial evidence all the time. None of us agree on whether LE have DNA in this case, but since they've ruled people out, including at least 3 false confessions according to the last thread, then it stands to reason that at least some kind of physical evidence exists. Presenting 2 pieces of evidence to a judge would normally get you a warrant if you're looking at a POI, but you don't need a warrant if LE can catch them in illegal activity-and if they think they know who did this then it's a pretty good bet they have a 24/7 detail on him. When LE has someone in mind, in my experience, they lay on the pressure. Friends and family are interviewed, vehicles and homes are searched, etc. Word gets out and spreads. Heck, in the Lewis Clark case that guy was brought in 6 times for interrogation. Nothing like that has leaked about this case. We couldn't discuss it even if it had, but it hasn't. LE is still asking the public to identify BG. "Building a case" is important, but LE doesn't stop looking for evidence just because they've made an arrest. The investigation continues until it is closed. The DA uses that evidence to build their case. If they have enough evidence and probable cause to convince themselves that it's POI A, and to rule others out, then it should be enough for an arrest warrant. Public safety is a concern here. If they're just operating on a hunch, however, and there is no forensic evidence to tie POI A to the crime then I'd be very nervous about any arrest that was made. Tunnel vision can be frightening.

Thank you for the better insight into the arrest/prosecution/etc process than I could've given

Just to be clear though (despite fear of going OT, although I think this post is probably going to be more on topic than my last post was! Whoops..) I wasn't actually saying that I think LE know who BG is and aren't arresting him because they are "building a case." I was just sort of speaking in general terms because I had interpreted MJPeony's post as them saying they were generally confused about why it could be that if LE knew who BG was, why there might not have been an arrest already, and I chimed in with my basic understanding of why arrests might take longer in murder cases. I see I was maybe stating the bleeding obvious and my comment was unnecessary, having read back over everything MJPeony seems to me now to be speaking much more specifically to there being enough evidence to meet the requirements for probable cause to make an arrest in this case, if the situation suggested by the poster they were replying to was in fact actually what is happening in this case, including referencing the exact bits of evidence they thought would be enough to make an arrest - I completely misread that earlier. Apologies, I seem to have wasted everyone's time and should've read more carefully/thoroughly - not least of all because this is a specific case discussion forum, and not a 'generally what happens in murder cases' forum musta had not-enough-coffee brain this morning.

MOO was/is actually that LE do not know who BG is. Or, more specifically, that they at the very least did not know before the last PC, and if they do know who he is now, they only just starting zeroing in on him after finding the right tip or tips among the new tips that have come in since the PC. It is, of course, also possible they had a POI in mind before the PC and needed more information from the public, rather than needing the lead that puts BG on their radar as possibly being BG. They have been very successful in keeping the general public from figuring out things like COD, whether they have DNA, POIs they have looked at, which obviously leaves a lot of these questions very open. It seems almost like it is just a 50/50 chance on lots of these things - they either have DNA or they don't . But for the reasons you have touched on, as well as other things that are just my own speculative opinion/feeling like my own impression of the last PC, I personally feel it is more likely that LE did not know who BG was before the PC and that once they have identified him from a tip things will move very quickly because his identity will actually be one of the last pieces of the puzzle to put in place, most of the rest of the 'puzzle' being completed around the blank space that is BG's identity already. Hope so, anyway!!

 

[MDATCA]

I just can't understand how this case has taken 2 and a half years and counting. LE has not put out much info claiming to rule out false confessions but if they have the DNA they said they have wouldnt that rule out a false confessor? Video, audio, witnesses,dna, sketches, thousands of tips plus the "twist" and we have not even heard about a promising poi that they have brought in.

I am beginning to fear this case will not be solved unless someone confesses or turns them in and can tell them withheld info. Imo they have no idea where to look and are holding our for that.

 

[FinePrint]

Just the fact that they (LE) continue to look into people such as Etter tells me they have zero, zip....no idea who BG is. I don't see this coming to a conclusion any time soon.

If LE had a suspect that they were so sure of they wouldn't be messing around. There is a big spotlight on this case. LE wants this thing solved as quickly as possible to maintain public confidence!

If there is someone out there who knows who he is, well they have kept their mouth shut for 2 1/2 years now. Some kind of life changing event will have to happen to make them come forward in the future.

Edit to say:
I hope I'm wrong on this. I was wrong about Etter, I didn't think he would shoot himself!!

 

[JnRyan]

I still don't buy that LE hasn't arrested BG because they are "building a case." LE doesn't build a case-they collect evidence and protect the public. The DA builds the case. Double jeporady applies after a trial, not before. A person can most definitely be arrested more than once for the same crime as long as there is probable cause. They can find all kinds of reasons to arrest someone if they suspect them and want to turn on the heat: obstructing justice, lying to LE, or even some non-murder related issue if it means they get more time with the POI. In cases where it's an open secret about who did it, LE has held back because the evidence is too circumstantial to sometimes even generate a warrant. Still, cases are won on circumstantial evidence all the time. None of us agree on whether LE have DNA in this case, but since they've ruled people out, including at least 3 false confessions according to the last thread, then it stands to reason that at least some kind of physical evidence exists. Presenting 2 pieces of evidence to a judge would normally get you a warrant if you're looking at a POI, but you don't need a warrant if LE can catch them in illegal activity-and if they think they know who did this then it's a pretty good bet they have a 24/7 detail on him. When LE has someone in mind, in my experience, they lay on the pressure. Friends and family are interviewed, vehicles and homes are searched, etc. Word gets out and spreads. Heck, in the Lewis Clark case that guy was brought in 6 times for interrogation. Nothing like that has leaked about this case. We couldn't discuss it even if it had, but it hasn't. LE is still asking the public to identify BG. "Building a case" is important, but LE doesn't stop looking for evidence just because they've made an arrest. The investigation continues until it is closed. The DA uses that evidence to build their case. If they have enough evidence and probable cause to convince themselves that it's POI A, and to rule others out, then it should be enough for an arrest warrant. Public safety is a concern here. If they're just operating on a hunch, however, and there is no forensic evidence to tie POI A to the crime then I'd be very nervous about any arrest that was made. Tunnel vision can be frightening.

More detailed and more thought out than I would have written, but yes, I don't believe LE has any solid suspects. Interviews, tips and calls from other LE agencies on arrests may have provided some possibilities, but no one they and the DA panned out as a suspect.

 

[Torch Carrier]

I was wondering if this is a father and son duo or two friends for example and one is already over at the crime scene, the other comes over the bridge and directs them over the sand bank. The motive is sexual assault but the girls fight and are killed. Perps split up and leave separately, one thru cemetery and along 300n to get the vehicle from CPS and the other goes back the way he got to the CS along the deer path back to FBridge where driver goes to pick him up at the FB parking area. MOO.

I'm with ya except for- if father/son, SA motive unlikely, IMO.

Could hitchhiker have been perp #1 picked up by perp #2 ?

 

[soylattesandsleuthing]

I don't dismiss the family or witness statements entirely. But I have no way of knowing where their information came from or its veracity. My timeline isn't based on the witness statements, but it so happens to fit in them perfectly. (where's the clown emoji?)

The family has also stated there are specifics they don’t remember—such as exact times certain things occurred. Not saying they should have remembered as I doubt in the beginning they felt they needed to be paying attention to every little detail, but it does make things a bit shakey if we are just going off their version of events IMO.

In the recent True Crime Garage podcast, it was said that during the initial search, prior to LE being informed that the girls were missing, Kelsi and Cody crosses the bridge and went to nearby houses to see if any of the residents had seen the girls. They only managed to speak to one resident who said they didn’t see them—does anyone know who the person was who they spoke to or has that person not been named?

 

[Torch Carrier]

I was wondering if this is a father and son duo or two friends for example and one is already over at the crime scene, the other comes over the bridge and directs them over the sand bank. The motive is sexual assault but the girls fight and are killed. Perps split up and leave separately, ...

 

[Torch Carrier]

DBM

 

[MJPeony]

Thank you for the better insight into the arrest/prosecution/etc process than I could've given

Just to be clear though (despite fear of going OT, although I think this post is probably going to be more on topic than my last post was! Whoops..) I wasn't actually saying that I think LE know who BG is and aren't arresting him because they are "building a case." I was just sort of speaking in general terms because I had interpreted MJPeony's post as them saying they were generally confused about why it could be that if LE knew who BG was, why there might not have been an arrest already, and I chimed in with my basic understanding of why arrests might take longer in murder cases. I see I was maybe stating the bleeding obvious and my comment was unnecessary, having read back over everything MJPeony seems to me now to be speaking much more specifically to there being enough evidence to meet the requirements for probable cause to make an arrest in this case, if the situation suggested by the poster they were replying to was in fact actually what is happening in this case, including referencing the exact bits of evidence they thought would be enough to make an arrest - I completely misread that earlier. Apologies, I seem to have wasted everyone's time and should've read more carefully/thoroughly - not least of all because this is a specific case discussion forum, and not a 'generally what happens in murder cases' forum musta had not-enough-coffee brain this morning.

MOO was/is actually that LE do not know who BG is. Or, more specifically, that they at the very least did not know before the last PC, and if they do know who he is now, they only just starting zeroing in on him after finding the right tip or tips among the new tips that have come in since the PC. It is, of course, also possible they had a POI in mind before the PC and needed more information from the public, rather than needing the lead that puts BG on their radar as possibly being BG. They have been very successful in keeping the general public from figuring out things like COD, whether they have DNA, POIs they have looked at, which obviously leaves a lot of these questions very open. It seems almost like it is just a 50/50 chance on lots of these things - they either have DNA or they don't . But for the reasons you have touched on, as well as other things that are just my own speculative opinion/feeling like my own impression of the last PC, I personally feel it is more likely that LE did not know who BG was before the PC and that once they have identified him from a tip things will move very quickly because his identity will actually be one of the last pieces of the puzzle to put in place, most of the rest of the 'puzzle' being completed around the blank space that is BG's identity already. Hope so, anyway!!

No no, you weren’t wasting our time- this board is for brainstorming, thinking out loud, going over theories, etc. Heavens knows we’ve all misread a post at some point, and as much as I’d like to think my thoughts are 100% always crystal clear when I type them I must admit it’s possible they are not always

 

[Torch Carrier]

Why would a connection to the family stop LE from making an arrest? Brothers, cousins, neighbors, and parents of victims get arrested every day. In fact, that's usually where LE start their investigation.

That new sketch is identical to at least half a dozen young guys in the Delphi area, just as the OG sketch was identical to many of the middle-aged men. Throw a pair of glasses on him and the young one is a dead ringer for my son. Of course, he's 12, though, so...

Family more likely to lie for each other?

 

[tresir2012]

I'm with ya except for- if father/son, SA motive unlikely, IMO.

Could hitchhiker have been perp #1 picked up by perp #2 ?

why unlikely if Father and son?

Re hitchiker, yes I mentioned similar upthread with one leaving via cemetery and one via deer trails.

 

[HEY YOU!]

So, IF BG was a witness and IF said witness lied in describing OBG to throw LE off, wouldn't LE be hot on this guy's trail now?

Does anyone think LE were re-interviewing BG around July of 2017 at which time BG felt they were on to him so said "Okay, I saw this guy ... was too scared to provide any info back then, but ...here's what he looked ... here's where I saw him..." (resulting in OBG sketch). This would explain the 5 month time lapse. Still, IF this happened and now LE has wised up to him, they should know who BG (or his partner in crime, if there is one) IS, right?

Could an alibi really be so compelling or so confounding as to be preventing an arrest?

Or are they still waiting on this guy'a DNA perhaps submitted fairly recently?

If BG stated he was near the crime scene that day (because he knew people saw him and/or his car and knew who he was) then his best bet for not being considered a POI is to describe BG (himself with a disguise that matches the video) and say he saw him. If people saw BG undisguised on the trail and knew him then most likely others in the community knew him and his family. Perhaps his disguise was so good that nobody considered him at all, especially since he himself said he saw BG. Just a thought. Otherwise he becomes a POI right off the bat. Now he is a witness who can kind of control the original sketch appearance. Also, if he was close to the girls (boyfriend, family member, relative or was present at crime scene when they were found) then his DNA may be accounted for in that way when it comes time to prosecute.

This would account for the 'twist' in the investigation.
Would also account for families crying as they left the press conference as they realize who it was.
Would be the reason they 'went back to the beginning.'
Also why LE stated 'you didn't think we would change the original course of the investigation.'
LE also stated we 'may even have interviewed him.'
Whoever saw BG undisguised and gave that sketch in the beginning must have placed him time and location wise very near to crime scene.

 

[tresir2012]

Just the fact that they (LE) continue to look into people such as Etter tells me they have zero, zip....no idea who BG is. I don't see this coming to a conclusion any time soon.

If LE had a suspect that they were so sure of they wouldn't be messing around. There is a big spotlight on this case. LE wants this thing solved as quickly as possible to maintain public confidence!

If there is someone out there who knows who he is, well they have kept their mouth shut for 2 1/2 years now. Some kind of life changing event will have to happen to make them come forward in the future.

Edit to say:
I hope I'm wrong on this. I was wrong about Etter, I didn't think he would shoot himself!!

What if the alibi given by the perp in the early days is now dead? The alibi couldn't be disputed or changed then. A double murderer would have no qualms about silencing an alibi later if there was a chance they would go to LE. Very frightening for that person.
However, as the perp is now seemingly younger, the alibi possibly being an older guy (a father for example) then the perp will feel likely protected by that alibi.

AJMO

 

[TL4S]

No no, you weren’t wasting our time- this board is for brainstorming, thinking out loud, going over theories, etc. Heavens knows we’ve all misread a post at some point, and as much as I’d like to think my thoughts are 100% always crystal clear when I type them I must admit it’s possible they are not always

I once read a post and thought, man, this person is confused as heck. Turned out it was my own post...