Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #111

[Charlot123]

MOO the creek has a permanent sand bar. On the bar's east end, from the south bank there is a ankle deep crossing to
the bar.
Walking on the sand bar to its west end, the there is a crossing to the north bank which is a bit deeper.

Do we have any maps? I am horrible with geography.

 

[tresir2012]

I believe GH is the source for a witness seeing a man exit the cemetery and go east, it was then quoted in other SM.

Ok that was probably where I recall it from. So likely a neighbour of RL IMO.

 

[tresir2012]

Do we have any maps? I am horrible with geography.

In the media thread page 38 there are some maps showing the sand bar I believe.

Here's a link that will take you to that post that has a link to the sand bar satellite map.

IN - Abigail Williams & Liberty German, Delphi, Media, Maps, Timelines NO DISCUSSION

 

[tresir2012]

Oh wow, so this could be considered "hiding in plain sight" I'm thinking

Yep and "what would your family think of you" could fit too IMO.

 

[Sheila Terranova]

So sad. This case is cold, despite Libby actually taping the monster.

 

[Charlot123]

Yep and "what would your family think of you" could fit too IMO.

BTW, the family might change much more than the perp, if they are guessing or know what had happened. Didn't Carter say something about "those who love you?" (imprecise, but I remember the meaning). So the family is loving, and at least has conscience, and the consequences hit them deeper and deeper. So what you expect to see in a killer who should be scared or even has pangs of remorse, you don't see because the person is detached emotionally, and for him, life goes on. But you see it in people around him.

 

[susiQ]

I've been looking at skibaboo's map:
Abigail Williams & Liberty German. Delphi, IN. 2/13/17 - Google My Maps

And the helicopter footage:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10154523478509092

There's a pretty straight shot from between where LE parked at the cemetery, to where they parked on the private road, with the crime scene and creek searches right in between. This is footage from 2/14. I'm sure at that point they already knew about Libby's SC photos on the bridge, but I don't know if they had any other digital info yet, like the BG video, or even her phone.

Fast forward to 2/27 (almost 2 weeks later). Now there are road blocks on Old IN 25 and W 300 N, on either side of Hoosier Heartland Hwy., plus one south on W 200 N (near N 625 W - the one that turns into the private drive south of the bridge). I wonder what happened to bring forth the road blocks on 2/27.

I know many of you don't like to rehash the creek crossing, so scroll and roll. But I'm still struggling with the idea of BG leading the two girls across the creek to kill them. What sort of person puts themselves in that kind of position before committing a crime like this? The footage of the searches proves the water was probably fairly deep for at least some point in the crossing. If he did lead them across, I think that indicates a heck of a lot more about him as a person than almost any other clue we have about him. We still don't even know for sure that he did, anyway.

The idea of him crossing the creek on his exit out makes some sense. He could have crossed and stayed south of the creek and taken the woods all the way to Hoosier Heartland Hwy, if that's what he did to avoid the trail. The attached map is just one option he could have taken where he mostly would have stayed hidden until the highway, and it's only about two and a quarter miles.

IMO, there's something really significant about the way this all went down that we haven't been told, or isn't known yet, even to LE.

I've been thinking a lot about this too. Did he actually cross the water? Here's my rather wacky theory and remember I suspect there may have been more than one perp for all of this to go down this fast:

He took the girls "down the hill" at the southend. There was a vehicle waiting on the lane way below. Not hard to subdue two teens with a gun to their head. They immobilize them, duct tape perhaps or zip ties, throw them in the car and head for the cemetery. There's a nice little place there to hide a vehicle very close to RL's property gate. It's been said that it is only two football fields in distance to the crime scene. Remember, killer got around fast. Libby's phone pinging all over town (no matter how one sees the cell tower issue).

Now this is the rest of my theory (not my only one), but I must admit it is at the top of my list. The planning of this murder may have had two purposes. One targeted for revenge on someone close to one of the girls. Two, had a bone to pick with RL as well and derived some pleasure watching what ended up happening to him. There are so many connections down there in Delphi and lots of nefarious goings on. As I said before, in this case, ANYTHING is possible.

There you go. My Thursday afternoon two cents worth Don't come down on me too hard.......guys!

 

[tresir2012]

I've been thinking a lot about this too. Did he actually cross the water? Here's my rather wacky theory and remember I suspect there may have been more than one perp for all of this to go down this fast:

He took the girls "down the hill" at the southend. There was a vehicle waiting on the lane way below. Not hard to subdue two teens with a gun to their head. They immobilize them, duct tape perhaps or zip ties, throw them in the car and head for the cemetery. There's a nice little place there to hide a vehicle very close to RL's property gate. It's been said that it is only two football fields in distance to the crime scene. Remember, killer got around fast. Libby's phone pinging all over town (no matter how one sees the cell tower issue).

Now this is the rest of my theory (not my only one), but I must admit it is at the top of my list. The planning of this murder may have had two purposes. One targeted for revenge on someone close to one of the girls. Two, had a bone to pick with RL as well and derived some pleasure watching what ended up happening to him. There are so many connections down there in Delphi and lots of nefarious goings on. As I said before, in this case, ANYTHING is possible.

There you go. My Thursday afternoon two cents worth Don't come down on me too hard.......guys!

So then what? How did he get them out the car and down to the crime scene still duct taped and zip tied?

 

[susiQ]

So then what? How did he get them out the car and down to the crime scene still duct taped and zip tied?

With a gun pointed at their heads possibly. I didn't say they killed the girls before getting to RL's property and CS location.

 

[tresir2012]

With a gun pointed at their heads possibly. I didn't say they killed the girls before getting to RL's property and CS location.

Ok but wouldn't they be falling over as it is rough terrain heading down what seems to be a wooded ravine. So similar to Jayme Closs then? Only two of them.

 

[susiQ]

Ok but wouldn't they be falling over as it is rough terrain heading down what seems to be a wooded ravine. So similar to Jayme Closs then? Only two of them.

When I wrote "immobilized" I was visualizing taping their mouths shut so they couldn't scream and tying up their hands and then pointing a gun to their head. If there were two of them they could be leading the girls by the scruff of the neck from the cemetery to the CS. I don't see how that's an impossible scenario. JMO
ed:sp

 

[TL4S]

It's crazy. There's all this talk about the creek, but we have no clear answers about whether the girls crossed, and/or when/if BG crossed.

• Riley talks about BG probably knowing the creek - how deep it is, where to cross, etc. Holeman said that a creek crossing would be difficult for the girls, but it's never been stated outright whether they did.
  
• KG says searchers on the south side of the creek found a shoe, so they then looked across the creek and saw the bodies. Does that mean the shoe was on the south side of the creek, in the creek, or on the north side and merely spotted from the south side (possibly even with binoculars or a scope)?
  
• There are at least two reports (that can't be linked here: one via scanner thread, another through a reporter) of an article of clothing found somewhere near the water, but I'm not sure exactly where, or if it's related.
  
• BG was videoed on the south end of the bridge, and the CS was on the north side of the creek.
• LE had searchers in the creek by the CS.

It all hints at a creek crossing, but it's still all speculation. The fact that the crime happened near a creek clearly makes the creek part of the search area, IMO, since it would be a prime spot to discard evidence. Plus in this case, it appears the crime began on one side, and ended on the other. Like I said, it's crazy!

 

[TL4S]

I've been thinking a lot about this too. Did he actually cross the water? Here's my rather wacky theory and remember I suspect there may have been more than one perp for all of this to go down this fast:

He took the girls "down the hill" at the southend. There was a vehicle waiting on the lane way below. Not hard to subdue two teens with a gun to their head. They immobilize them, duct tape perhaps or zip ties, throw them in the car and head for the cemetery. There's a nice little place there to hide a vehicle very close to RL's property gate. It's been said that it is only two football fields in distance to the crime scene. Remember, killer got around fast. Libby's phone pinging all over town (no matter how one sees the cell tower issue).

Now this is the rest of my theory (not my only one), but I must admit it is at the top of my list. The planning of this murder may have had two purposes. One targeted for revenge on someone close to one of the girls. Two, had a bone to pick with RL as well and derived some pleasure watching what ended up happening to him. There are so many connections down there in Delphi and lots of nefarious goings on. As I said before, in this case, ANYTHING is possible.

There you go. My Thursday afternoon two cents worth Don't come down on me too hard.......guys!

I've never been big on the theory that BG was high on drugs at the time of the crime, but you know what, that might explain why the h*ll he crossed the creek!

 

[Jax49]

• There are at least two reports (that can't be linked here: one via scanner thread, another through a reporter) of an article of clothing found somewhere near the water, but I'm not sure exactly where, or if it's related.

RSFF

The report from the news photographer is allowed. He said he saw girls' clothing in the creek.

"From 75-yards away I could see girls clothing in Deer Creek east of the bridge and knew full well that the girls where found very nearby."

J Kyle Keener

 

[susiQ]

You know, I've never been big on the theory that BG was high on drugs at the time of the crime, but you know what, that might explain why the h*ll he crossed the creek!

And, I'm not convinced he did I also don't think he was under the influence of drugs or alcohol. Just pure evil intent. Maybe he needed the drugs after the crime?

 

[TL4S]

RSFF

The report from the news photographer is allowed. He said he saw girls' clothing in the creek.

"From 75-yards away I could see girls clothing in Deer Creek east of the bridge and knew full well that the girls where found very nearby."

J Kyle Keener

Oh, good, I wasn't sure. Thank you. What's RSFF? That's a new one for me.

 

[tresir2012]

When I wrote "immobilized" I was visualizing taping their mouths shut so they couldn't scream and tying up their hands and then pointing a gun to their head. If there were two of them they could be leading the girls by the scruff of the neck from the cemetery to the CS. I don't see how that's an impossible scenario. JMO
ed:sp

Ok so there legs free and only hands zip tied. Reminds me off a way to get out of zip tied hands. Anyone seen it? I'll post a link.

 

[Lea Irving]

I got deleted. I do apologise. I will delete my account asap.

 

[Jax49]

Oh, good, I wasn't sure. Thank you. What's RSFF? That's a new one for me.

Respectfully Snipped For Focus.

Yes, we went thru the process a few threads ago and it was approved.

 

[TL4S]

And, I'm not convinced he did I also don't think he was under the influence of drugs or alcohol. Just pure evil intent. Maybe he needed the drugs after the crime?

Very true! Honestly, I had myself pretty convinced that BG didn't cross the creek until I heard the interview with Riley posted recently. My interpretation was that LE thinks he's local in part because he had to know the creek.