Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #111

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Funnily enough I found myself going down this rabbit hole yesterday.

@Charlot123 (I think) To the poster who was talking drops etc. I have always thought the girls were witness unknowingly/innocently to another crime or clandestine meeting of some sort. I also must admit the new sketch does now look Mediterranean/Hispanic/ IMHO

I can think of numerous reasons why we were asked to forget old BG below is one of them.

MIT researchers trained a machine learning model to reconstruct a very rough likeness of someone’s face based only on a short audio clip
So you think they lied when they said they had witnesses for the OBG sketch? They indicated they were misled at the April 2019 PC though so if they used a machine to come up with the OBG sketch from his voice, where the heck did the hat come from?
:)

ETA or have I misunderstood and you are saying the NBG sketch is from the voice?
 
Hi, I don't think he looks Hispanic, either. "Hispanic" is a very loose term, anyhow, however, Latin America is geographically far from the Med. I think BG's hair is dark and the structure of the face and body is more typical for the Mediterranean area. (I am speaking about BG from the video). I use it descriptively.

He could be anyone, of course. But the guy on the video is very far from the YBG on the sketch.

I disagree. None of us know, therefore we can only theorise and discuss. I have never thought BG was older and always thought younger that was personal opinion. I never recognised the OBG or was able to marry the face with the body in the Pics. I sort of always sensed he was younger and I have no clue rhyme or reason why! Nothing more than that. Personal opinion based on what we have seen.

MingyMoo
 
Dark German is how I see him.
Thinner than the video appearance, with lots of lots of quick movements.
Looking out from under his brow as I think he does toward Libby looks very integral
to his personality.

Dark Irish, maybe. Hard as I try, I can not see the heavy Teutonic jaw they made on the picture. I see a much smaller chin, and mouth on the video. I might be wrong, as we saw everything there, even a respirator. A granulated, pixelated, video.
 
Yes, it is probably not difficult to get rid of the DNA on/around the bodies. There may be some DNA left where the person was waiting for them, or on his escape route, and that DNA can be amplified. However, the scene of the search was so contaminated that it made whatever DNA LE have unusable in court.

ETA: I don't think it is something they saw that day on the trails that made them witnesses. I think such woody areas + bridges are convenient for exchanges of different sorts, not necessarily dead drops, it was the first idea that came to my mind, but it can be something else. We are prohibited to mention Libby's "geographic" interest, but people with such hobbies can accidentally run into something and think it belongs to their hobby, you know? Instead, it was left by someone else, and meant for someone different.

I don’t know why we can’t discuss the hobby now that the suspect is a young person and not the older person being a target over the hobby.
 
Hiya @tresir2012 Many thanks for the above I am probably being a bit lazy here and hope you can help and point me in the direction of transcript above. Most of the PCs I have listened to have been barely audible as far as questions from the press. As I say thanks for the above much appreciated.

MingyMoo
I took this from the media thread page 16 beginning around post #302. There are several posts about that PC. It was on 17 Jul 2017 so you could also try googling the date as I am sure the media thread may not have all articles.
 
This is copied from the media thread as to why and how the OBG sketch was issued. (There is a mis speak at one point where the officer states suspects instead of witnesses.)


We're here to talk a little bit about the release that was put out so I'm just basically gonna open it up to questions. I will tell you now, most the information that you have in the news release is about all that can be released at this time, so there's not gonna be anything else real, um exciting that is going to be put out there but I will be happy to take questions and we'll go from there.

Q. How did you have an artist develp this sketch and is the sketch made with the help of eye witness or eye witnesses, or was it made solely from the other picture we have seen?

A. Basically, I can't really answer that question completely. I can tell you it came from the investigations itself, from officers looking into things, to tips and leads that have come in, that people have come forward, we got information from there, and the composite was put together with that information.

Q. Why release the sketch released just today? Did you just get finished, have other people seen this, including the family, now just the right time to release it?

A. This picture was release at this time because we felt it needed to come out, the information needs to be put forward, and we wanted to get it out there so people can look at it, and it has, it has taken a while to get this thing put together and that's why it's taken so long to get the picture out.

Q. In the realm of evidence and leads that you have, how big is this photograph, how much are you counting on this artist's sketch, or photograph of the sketch?

A. It's like anything else like this in a case. Anytime we get something new, or some information out there, we always feel it's important to the case. We feel this is very important because it actually give a better view of the perp, person in the picture that you see down below. It shows a little more facial features, it gives you a little more information on what we're looking at, who the suspect might be, and that's why we feel it's very important that this picture is out there at this time.

Q. What's so striking about this? What is the thing that investigators look at and say “Wow, that's the thing that is gonna make the thing that is gonna make this guy stand out from all the other men walking around.”

A. It's basically just a clearer picture of his face compared to what you saw down below. We've got the information out there, the pictures out there, now we've got this composite that we feel that is, we feel that is the same person, and we just want to make sure that people realize that picture is this person (ED: he's pointing BG, then to sketch) We're hoping that they can get that picture and take that picture and get us some information on a possible suspect.

Q. How confident are you that this is accurate?

A. We're pretty confident. The information was received, with that information we've been able to put that together. Again, this thing wasn't drawn up overnight. We've been working with this picture and with the suspects that we, excuse me, I mean the witnesses that we have, that we put this together so it's not something that we did overnight. This has taken awhile to put this together.

Q. Those witness, did they see him in the area, or did they call the tip line with that information?

A. I really can't go into that 'cause we don't want to compromise the case itself.

Q. Well, when you say witnesses, so multiple people that helped you out?

A. There were people that were able to help us out with this, yes.

Q. A lot of people will say that you guys are releasing this because you are running out of leads, that's not true in this case, right?

A. No, we are still getting anywhere from 5-10 tips a day. We are still getting emails, so it's not something that... this case is not dried up, it's not a cold case, this case if still very active.

Q. If you had not received the tips, we might not have seen this picture in the first place, right?

A. A possibility, yes

Q. What is the attitude of the troops working on this? The fact that there is a composite that is infinitely clearer than the picture that we have been looking at. What is the feeling among the investigators that have been grinding away and working on this for months.

A. Well, anytime that you get new information officers are always excited about that information. It kinda builds up their confidence on the case itself. With this information here, we're really, you know,
it really excites them, lets them know that people are still caring about this case and people are still interested. And we can get somebody to come forward with more information, if we can get a name, or at least a location of this subject, that would be great, but officers have never really gotten down on this case. I think they've, they are flustrated maybe, but as far as solving this thing, it's something that's never, we've always thought like we would solve this case.

Q. Who made sketch??? specific in here??? have you talked with those witnesses to come up with an exact look of this person?

A. It's basically just been a cumulation of all the departments have come together and we have put this composite together.

A. In the release you talk about not to focus on the hat, it may not be accurate. Can you talk a little about that so people at home …?

A. As you can see, the original picture below it appears that he's got a hat on and it's got the flaps down
and kind of down over the face. We want to make sure you focus on the picture. We want to make sure the face is what you are looking at and not worry about the hat even though the hat does is not quite the same as in the picture. We want the facial features, is what we want you to look at.

Q. If someone does recognizes this person, what should they do?

A. They can call the tip line, or they can email us.

Q. In the release you mentioned some things exactly such as the hair color, can you talk about this at this time

A. Basically, the hair color is a reddish brown. She was, the person was not clear on the color of the eyes, but sh.., the person said it was definitely not blue. She was very obvious..., the person was very obviously not blue eyes, but they did mention that they were not clear on what color it was.

Q. So there are people out there who are sure that are sure they saw this guy walking around this day and they helped you out, it that?

A. Pretty much that's what it is, yes.

Q. Did those people come forward right away, or did it take a little time for those people to come forward.

A. It's been a while. It took a little bit, people are scared, they are afraid to be recognized by the subject, so, it just takes a while for these things to happened. Like I said, the picture did not come overnight, we've been working on this for a while

Q. To you think this guy is still around the Delphi area, or you think he's in a different state?

A. That's what I hope this is all about.

Q. We've heard many times that somebody out there probably knows something, and is really driving home the point today to make sure you call no mater how little it may be, especially if you recognize this person.?

A. That's what we want, we want people to call in and give us information. Anybody that can give us an identification on this subject, or knows where the subject might be, that would be great, we would appreciate any information that we can get.

Q. So still have that voice, and you've posted that picture, and you have this other. So really three pieces of solid evidence that people can work with so that's gotta be a big development for the community today.

A. That is correct. We are really excited about the information being put out there. The dectectives and all the investigators that are involved are just basically waiting for the phones to ring.

Q. Will any more information or video be released from the cell phone that Libby had that day?

A. There's....I'm not going to comment on that, I don't wanna compromise that case.

Q. Just to be clear, do you know this man's identity and you are not releasing it, or you don't know who this guys identity?

A. We want to know who he is.

Q. Do you know.???.county and I know you said that....??? somebody around this area knows who he is and will possibly call in... (Cannot understand)

A. We are hoping somebody knows from wherever, we don't care where it's from, we just want to be able to find somebody that can identify this subject and can give us information on him.

Q. Any search warrants that are going to come now that you have released this person's picture, anything else developing after you put this picture out today?

A. We gotta just do the investigation at that point in time and see what happens

Anything else..............

THE END"


"Q. How confident are you that this is accurate?

A. We're pretty confident."
 
Yes well, they were wrong but we don't know why. Wish we knew.

So perhaps we know why S-DC asked us to concentrate on the body, mannerisms, etc instead of the face. Perhaps it was a new technology used. Just because it was available didn't mean it was right. As sure as hell I would use it if it was one of the clues I was left and if it was available.

Mingy Moo
 
Page 38 post #758 in the media thread has a transcript of an Aug 2017 interview with Sgt Holman where he talks about the witnesses and the OBG sketch.

Here's the text relating to witnesses -

"PART 2:
A: [5.34] When the people come forward that mentioned, you know, because that sketch behind you is pretty detailed, like we said, and the guy that did it is obviously unbelievably talented because he maybe didn't have a bunch of information but it's unbelievable what they could come up with, right, and make it into this composite sketch that could end up helping crack the case. But, when did those people come forward that said that they saw him possibly near the trail?

H: Well, that's a good question. It's actually compiled, it's not just from one person, so we've had several people say that they saw the person that we identified through the video that we obtained off of Liberty's phone. And we put that out so once people saw that photo then they said "oh I saw that guy; I saw that guy." We have to determine 'is that the guy they saw' first of all, and if it is then let's work together. So, we were getting calls that night, and throughout the last couple months. Some people don't watch the news. Some people don't really follow what's going on . So some of them were sooner-than-later, um. But then we took our time with that. We took our time, we interviewed the composite drawing itself took probably 2/12 to 3 weeks, because we wanted to make sure ourselves that it was exactly right at the people had recalled that. So, um, we have been, I think, getting better tips. Obviously the first photo is pretty hard to see. It's pixelated pretty bad, and this is pretty detailed. We want to make sure that people know this might not look exactly like the person, but it's gonna have similar facial features. So, this is just what the person or persons that we've interviewed over the last several months believe this is what this guy looked like. There's four of us in this room right now. If somebody walked into this room for 30 seconds and left, we'd all have different drawings, but I think the facial features and the major identifiers we would all get right. So, that's what we're hoping, that this gives us a little more guidance, a little more not-as-vague. And it's helping. We are getting better tips. We're still getting some not-so-good tips, I would say. But we're getting a little better tips from this composite drawing.

A: [7.45]. is it a few people kind of , possibly that saw him, or there was more than a couple that called in, right?



H: Yeah. There's ... I would say that's a good statement, there's more than a few that said they saw him. Now, I guess we have to determine there was other people on that trail, or they actually seen that guy is responsible for this, or they seen somebody else that was just out there walking.

A: In time-frame-wise, how long do you think he was out there that day, and have you just kind of stopped by, tried to find if he was planning this, tried to find somebody that was walking off the trail and thought 'hey, this would be a good target", or was he just out there for a little bit?

H: I wish I could tell you that. I have theories, but we, you know, the evidence is pretty... like I said, the evidence doesn't really indicate how long or if he was a traveler or local, and some of that we just speculate on. We can't say he is or isn't. But we just have to go off that evidence that we have; the composite drawing, the video, the audio, and just continue to rely on the community. I still believe somebody knows, somebody knows what happened. For whatever reason, they won't come forward, and we wish they would, obviously.... because this person's probably gonna do this again and I'd hate for that to happen to you or your loved ones. That's the message that I want to get out to the public, that if you do know, for sure you need to let us know so we can possibly stop this from happening again to your daughter, or your mother, or sister, or anybody. Could be brother or father as well, so... "
 
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"Q. How confident are you that this is accurate?

A. We're pretty confident."
I believe the April 2019 PC clearly shows that investigators were misled early on. It also seems they feel the killer, being spoken to directly at that PC, probably had a hand in that. [You never thought we would change gears to a new investigative strategy...It's about power to you...you want to know...you could be in this room]. All that and the feeling of focused anger just pouring off of ISP Carter speaks volumes. What do you do when you find out someone has lied outright or by omission? You start over. I have faith in the Delphi investigators. They're doing their job. Yes they need to catch a killer and get him off the streets but more importantly, they need to uncover enough evidence that will convict him. AJMO
 
I believe the April 2019 PC clearly shows that investigators were misled early on. It also seems they feel the killer, being spoken to directly at that PC, probably had a hand in that. [You never thought we would change gears to a new investigative strategy...It's about power to you...you want to know...you could be in this room]. All that and the feeling of focused anger just pouring off of ISP Carter speaks volumes. What do you do when you find out someone has lied outright or by omission? You start over. I have faith in the Delphi investigators. They're doing their job. Yes they need to catch a killer and get him off the streets but more importantly, they need to uncover enough evidence that will convict him. AJMO
If they know someone has lied, shouldn't they be charged?
 
Page 38 post #758 in the media thread has a transcript of an Aug 2017 interview with Sgt Holman where he talks about the witnesses and the OBG sketch.

Here's the text relating to witnesses -

"PART 2:
....

So, that's what we're hoping, that this gives us a little more guidance, a little more not-as-vague. And it's helping. We are getting better tips. We're still getting some not-so-good tips, I would say. But we're getting a little better tips from this composite drawing.
....

SBM

Ugh, this statement by LE is so frustrating to me. What exactly made them think those tips were “better”? I don’t understand. If that original composite sketch was so helpful, what results came about from it that were so positive? LE specifically says they are/were good tips that differed from the bad ones.

Again, what made these new tips generated from the sketch so much more useful to LE? Because that sketch ended up useless. It’s literally the opposite of generating good tips.

So what info was LE getting that they claim was helpful? I’m sure I’m not making sense here and just repeating myself, but I’m really stumped on what they claim was generated by that sketch. What would they say now- all the tips that we said were good based on that sketch are bad now? :confused:

It’s one thing to say that original sketch ended up sending the public in the wrong direction. I get that. It’s another thing to say there were GOOD tips generated bc it helped LE. I’m not making sense I’m sure.
 
I believe the April 2019 PC clearly shows that investigators were misled early on. It also seems they feel the killer, being spoken to directly at that PC, probably had a hand in that. [You never thought we would change gears to a new investigative strategy...It's about power to you...you want to know...you could be in this room]. All that and the feeling of focused anger just pouring off of ISP Carter speaks volumes. What do you do when you find out someone has lied outright or by omission? You start over. I have faith in the Delphi investigators. They're doing their job. Yes they need to catch a killer and get him off the streets but more importantly, they need to uncover enough evidence that will convict him. AJMO

It just occurred to me that if somebody lied to police and misled them, this case should be solved and an arrest of some kind should have been made. If LE feels they were mislead they know what they were mislead about, and it would seem they would know who gave them information that lead them down the wrong path. Lying to an FBI agent is a felony and lying to police in Indiana, from what I can find, can be either a misdemeanor or felony. Somebody should be charged. Add to that, that whoever lied or mislead had some reason and desire to do it...The killer or someone they know or someone involved. Seems they should have arrested someone by now.
Someone should be arrested for either lying or the actual murder if police were mislead in my opinion.
 
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