Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #112

[momma_k]

However a knowledgeable tech type person would have known not to remove it as it is almost like a tracking device in its own right. Personal thought is he didn't take it, he heard it ring and left it without knowing what was on it. He had a simple choice leave it or take it he weighed up the odds and left it

MingyMoo

Good perspective. Following that thought he could have just removed the SIM or destroyed it, if he was knowledgeable and or was lucid enough after to think about it at all.

 

[momma_k]

My opinion will always be the girls thought they were meeting up with someone else. I have no reason to state that other than knowing teen behavior as a mother of one.

It could also very well be a disturbed man with impulse control who stumbled upon an opportunity.

I would also like to add that there are certain apps that immediately delete messages, not saying they were used, just saying I've seen other cases stumped by those. I am unsure as to if LE can retrieve those as some of those encrypted apps have gotten pretty good at it. Anyone know if tech is available to retrieve those?

 

[margarita25]

IMO a seasoned killer would not have left a cell phone with a video camera at the scene.

Valid thought and as you can imagine in 111 threads, that has been questioned/discussed. Some various ideas about that off the top of my head include:

1. Perhaps BG wasn’t aware that Libby had a phone on her because:

A) He just didn’t think about or anticipate it at the time

B) She hid it/tossed it before he could know about it/see it and was recovered later by LE, on either land or in the creek (or she tossed it after he became aware of it).

D) Libby had it on her person, perhaps in her pocket or bra for example. Since COD is unknown to us, as well as confirmation of SA, then the possibility exists he wouldn’t have found it on her if he:

AA) Killed her in a non hands on manner such as gunshot

BB) Didn’t sexually assault Libby or otherwise have extended physical contact with her.

2) If BG found it he maybe attempted to destroy it or throw it in the water but the data was recovered.

3) If he did see the phone perhaps it was lost during the scuffle or escape/exit.

*I feel like there are some other ideas shared on possibilities as to why the phone could have been left at the scene, but I can’t remember them all right now, lol. Feel free to add anyone.

Additionally:

Opinions/thoughts here also vary on if BG is:

A) Disorganized & not necessarily experienced, but rather “lucky”

B) Experienced, Organized

C) Some combination of both.

—-

Oh heck yes. Morel season here is May. And it gets crazy. Lol. All of us land owners hate it. Folks will literally knock at all hours asking to hunt. They are shameless

Yeah. BG was indeed hunting, imo; unfortunately it wasn’t for morel mushrooms.

 

[steeltowngirl]

I would also like to add that there are certain apps that immediately delete messages, not saying they were used, just saying I've seen other cases stumped by those. I am unsure as to if LE can retrieve those as some of those encrypted apps have gotten pretty good at it. Anyone know if tech is available to retrieve those?

Quick search shows several, so definitely yes. And the FBI would have access to every possible tool available.

How to Recover Snapchat Messages on iPhone
iPhone Snapchat Recovery - How to Recover Snapchat Messages on iPhone?

 

[momma_k]

I am not from Indiana so I cannot answer to its LE structure specifically. I can provide some general info about state LE structure based on the state where I live which is Georgia. There are 2 kinds of local law enforcement: one is responsible for matters occurring within the city limits of a city and the other is responsible for matters occurring outside of city limits and are usually referred to as sheriff departments. They can assist one another and are combined in some larger urban areas. Rural locations have as many officers as the budget allows. More wealthier areas of the state will have more personnel. Rural areas do not have resources such as crime scene analysis, labs, etc to help solve major crimes. This is where the state LE come into play. Our state LE, the Georgia Bureau of Investigations or GBI, is available to help these places that need and request their help. GBI has the trained personnel, labs, and equipment to investigate serious crimes. Most counties in GA call in the GBI to assist in the investigation of serious crimes. Urban areas like Atlanta could have some of its own specialists because their budget is bigger. The prosecution of the crime occurs in the court that has original jurisdiction for the physical scene of the crime. Original jurisdiction is usually the county superior court. I hope you find this info helpful. Fellow sleuthers, please advise if my post is misleading.

That is where it gets a smidge confusing and muddled. Technically within city limits is city, outside is county, etc. However the chain links of LE start mingling in any serious situation. It is not uncommon for county to back up a city, for even just a domestic. This is a all hands on deck matter, up to and including the FBI. They were called in very quickly. We even quite frequently have other close city officers responding to calls if needed. I guess a simple answer is all. As for the detectives, we actually do have them. But in any area where there caseload is relatively small, they also handle the small stuff. I guess you could say jurisdiction here is not a pissing match, and everyone pitches in where needed. Technically this would be a county case. But again, not too important to our LE here.

 

[momma_k]

Valid element, and as you can imagine in 111 threads, that has been questioned/discussed. Some various ideas about that off the top of my head include:

1. Perhaps BG wasn’t aware that Libby had a phone on her because:

A) He just didn’t think about or anticipate it at the time

B) She hid it/tossed it before he could know about it/see it and was recovered later by LE, on either land or in the creek.

C) Libby had it on her person, perhaps in her pocket or bra for example. Since COD is unknown to us, as well as confirmation of SA, then the possibility exists he wouldn’t have found it on her if he:

AA) Killed her in a non hands on manner such as gunshot

BB) Didn’t sexually assault Libby or otherwise have extended physical contact with her.

2) If BG found it he maybe attempted to destroy it or throw it in the water but the data was recovered.

3) If he did see the phone perhaps it was lost during the scuffle or escape/exit.

*I feel like there are some other ideas shared on possibilities as to why the phone could have been left at the scene, but I can’t remember them all right now, lol. Feel free to add anyone.

Additionally:

Opinions/thoughts here also vary on if BG is:

A) Disorganized & Not necessarily experiences, but rather “lucky”

B) Experienced, Organized

C) Some combination of both.

D) Other

Oh boy. I can say with certainty that chances are super super slim he did not know about the phone unless she tossed it at some point after they knew they were in serious trouble. They were found during a search of the area in which local volunteers were present. Please do not take that as confirmation as to anything concerning the nature of the crime as they are not releasing that information for very good reasons.

I also want to add that I only spoke up in order to direct the chain of very good thoughts in the right direction, rather than have many branches of thought.

When volunteers are involved, it gets a little muddy, as they have to talk to someone they trust, especially if it was their first time encountering a crime scene. I believe our crew did a very good job of being respectful of LEs wishes.

 

[MingyMoo]

Good perspective. Following that thought he could have just removed the SIM or destroyed it, if he was knowledgeable and or was lucid enough after to think about it at all.

Interesting this would mean the video/voice was captured on the phone memory and not the sim or uploaded to the cloud automatically, where and if there was a suitably strong enough signal. Which ever way taking the sim didn't help. The video and the voice was captured and the physical phone with or without sim was left behind.

MingyMoo

 

[momma_k]

Quick search shows several, so definitely yes. And the FBI would have access to every possible tool available.

How to Recover Snapchat Messages on iPhone
iPhone Snapchat Recovery - How to Recover Snapchat Messages on iPhone?

That hopefully will play a role in figuring out motive. Thank you. Do you know anything about apps other than Snapchat? I was watching a documentary where encrypted conversations could not be recovered, and remember LE being very frustrated about that. With growing tech, I'm hoping nothing that is not the case anymore. I cannot remember the documentary, but it involved a missing mom.

 

[momma_k]

Interesting this would mean the video/voice was captured on the phone memory and not the sim or uploaded to the cloud automatically, where and if there was a suitably strong enough signal. Which ever way taking the sim didn't help. The video and the voice was captured and the physical phone with or without sim was left behind.

MingyMoo

All that can actually be confirmed was that very valuable information was obtained because of a very brave girl having the strength to record what she could. They have also said that they have released all they are willing to.

 

[Justice101]

My apologies to the mods. My post was deleted. I did not think clearly due to lack of sleep.
My POI I seen today. I can't even stomach waving to him. I wish I could go in great detail of what I shared on the tip line.
He was oddly taking pictures of his home an his second car. I asked my son if he knew Why? He said his buddy will be leaving after graduation in 2020 for college an the house is much to big for them since they can hardly afford living there the past 2 years. As the family an I were getting in the car We hear " Hey Guys! Put your bikes on the sidewalk to fix them not the grass!" (Speaking to his 11 year old an friend)
I froze. I couldn't take my eyes off him. I watched him walk back up his driveway in the garage. My family was like what was that about?!!
Me: What's the big deal the kids are fixing the bikes on the grass? It's flipping dead anyways! They never take care of their lawn!
He was wearing his favorite baseball hat turned backwards, an the infamous blue windbreaker pullover.
UGH!
Please let the day be soon this monster is caught.

It's easy to go down the rabbit hole with convincing yourself of something while ignoring anything that doesn't fit the pattern. So.. given that...I'll give you a 1 in 100,000 chance of it really being BG. Glad you sent in your tip though.

 

[sunshineray]

I don't think they were misleading. I'm a local. A man walking the trails alone on that rare warm day in February would not have alarmed anyone or caused them to take notice. Only after the girls were found, they wanted to help, and gave the best info they had. Probably kicking themselves for not paying better attention, but having no reason at the time to take notice. The video is from the victims cell.

I agree that the people giving information that led to the OBG composite were not misleading on purpose and just telling about someone they saw in the area, not necessarily on the day of the murders. I think it's possible LE tracked down this person and tested their DNA leading to an elimination of the OBG sketch. Either that or combined with familial DNA testing leading to a certain family and someone in that family who favored the witness's description of the NBG sketch. Thank you for sharing your local perspective, it's very much appreciated.

 

[momma_k]

It's easy to go down the rabbit hole with convincing yourself of something while ignoring anything that doesn't fit the pattern. So.. given that...I'll give you a 1 in 100,000 chance of it really being BG. Glad you sent in your tip though.

Every little bit helps. And I for one am glad she did. I read the thread before it got deleted, and she may have a very good tip.
I agree that the rabbit hole is easy to fall in to, but rabbits can be found in their holes, and many cases get solved because someone finally shared some information they did not think was important. I think it's more important to have the mindset that no clue us too small rather than worry about odds. Every victim deserves justice. And IMHO, every citizen has a responsibility to share any tip they may have

 

[momma_k]

I agree that the people giving information that led to the OBG composite were not misleading on purpose and just telling about someone they saw in the area, not necessarily on the day of the murders. I think it's possible LE tracked down this person and tested their DNA leading to an elimination of the OBG sketch. Either that or combined with familial DNA testing leading to a certain family and someone in that family who favored the witness's description of the NBG sketch. Thank you for sharing your local perspective, it's very much appreciated.

While they are being very tight lipped, and unless I missed something, I would think a sketch based on DNA in any way would be reported as such...? Presenting a sketch with that info would make it way more credible. But who knows.

 

[tresir2012]

I would get that all the time on the old system, so frustrating. You've won a Samsung etc. The screen would lock and I would have to turn off, then on, clear cookies and history to continue. Haven't had it with the new system and a new phone, touch wood.

I spoke to soon - I just got it and can't believe it. It must be because I said S*****g in my post. How ridiculous is that?

 

[sunshineray]

I will also add that due to the nature of the crime there had to be an smoke sample.

Disregard as poster meant an ample sample, not smoke sample...but it is iinteresting to note if killer was a smoker it could change a DNA sample.


Do you mean because the killer was a smoker it effected the DNA sample? I just looked that up and was surprised that is the case with some DNA testing especially paternity tested. They tell smokers to not smoke for an hour before swabbing for genetic testing.

 

[steeltowngirl]

That hopefully will play a role in figuring out motive. Thank you. Do you know anything about apps other than Snapchat? I was watching a documentary where encrypted conversations could not be recovered, and remember LE being very frustrated about that. With growing tech, I'm hoping nothing that is not the case anymore. I cannot remember the documentary, but it involved a missing mom.

I have no first hand knowledge of recovering messages from apps. I was just lamely googling. I’m aware of WhatsApp and others, no idea if they are encrypted. Hoping others with knowledge weigh in.

 

[momma_k]

I have no first hand knowledge of recovering messages from apps. I was just lamely googling. I’m aware of WhatsApp and others, no idea if they are encrypted. Hoping others with knowledge weigh in.

Lol. Understood. And yes, hoping for weigh ins. I'm only aware of certain apps as I have a teen myself, and am pretty vigilant and open with her. I know there are several out there. Of which the penalty for downloading those in my home is losing tech. Lol.

 

[momma_k]

Do you mean because the killer was a smoker it effected the DNA sample? I just looked that up and was surprised that is the case with some DNA testing especially paternity tested. They tell smokers to not smoke for an hour before swabbing for genetic testing.

That was a auto correct mishap. I typed ample. My stupid phone thought smoke was more appropriate. Smh. So no.. I meant they were able to recover a valid sample

 

[tresir2012]

So far what we appear to have gleaned from a local is the following.

• No one physically witnessed the crime
• High bridge is remote
• You have to know High Bridge is there to get there.
• The local Police are not equipped/not use to deal with such a high profile case.
• That the perpetrator must have known the area
• That the witnesses were in the area and saw a man walking alone
• There were zero cameras on the trail
• That not many people rent homes in Delphi they own homes
• There are Zero Businesses in the area the girls were found
• It is not uncommon to have someone Kayak.
• That every person jailed gives prints and a DNA swab for whatever reason
• That it is not unusual to see a man walking alone on an unusually warm day
• That they do have DNA and the only person it could belong to is the perpetrator
• The hope is Ancestry kits may expose the perpetrator
• The nature of the crime appears to be known about locally!!!
• That the phone may have recording the entire thing and may have been put in a pocket,
• That locals do have ideas on who the perpetrator is however keeping tight lipped due to the awful response from previous suspicions.
• That the poster thinks LE is holding back for all the right reasons

Personally I can’t argue with any of the above then again I am not a member of the Delphi community or even USA. I also come from a small community of 3k people who have beautiful woods and lakes in a semi remote area. Most local people know where to go to keep out of the way of visitors and to stay away from the well known footpaths. (Trails) I think I have said it before but just because you come from a small community does not mean to say in this day and age everyone knows everybody. They just don’t. Yes there are those high profile local characters that everyone knows or knows of whether it be local business people, landowner, developer, criminal, elected person, local bobby (lol what's one of those)? As for getting back to normal after such a horrific incident from my own perspective I know where @momma_k is coming from albeit on a very tiny and different scale. Aggravated burglary in your home of 50+ years, suddenly takes the honesty and naivety away from the way one has always lived. It takes a lot to start getting back to anywhere near normal especially when the perpetrator/s haven’t been caught or if they have you don’t know about it and relying on cross County Police communication.

Here is hoping today is the day

MingyMoo

TY for summarising like this. I do have a couple of queries if @momma_k can address.

Not quite zero businesses in the area. We do have Mears Farms and the Storage business plus another store the Hoosier something with the very large Andersons and Indian Packers within approx a mile. Correct me if wrong.
The DNA has been mentioned as being complicated. Not sure what LE meant by that and if I remembered correctly or not about that.
Sheriff Leazenby in the Renner interview denied the murder is on tape. Part of the "criminal activity" is on tape (the abduction and assault?).

 

[tresir2012]

That was a auto correct mishap. I typed ample. My stupid phone thought smoke was more appropriate. Smh. So no.. I meant they were able to recover a valid sample

You said everyone going to jail gets swabbed. I thought only felony arrests got swabbed in Indiana so are you saying they are even swabbing just misdemeanour arrests also? If so is that all over Indiana or just Delphi?