Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #113

[ScumbagTrav]

I fear they had a lot of consumptive evidence here, along with a rookie crime scene collection of it. That is a recipe for acquittal. Moo

What makes u fear that? They have admittedly held evidence from the public. We know there was more on the phone Libby had, as well as info from the scene and autopsies. I dont fear a conviction whatsoever. They just have to find him.

 

[FinePrint]

From 2017, warning regarding possible "next time"



bbm

Delphi lead investigator: "We're close"

Wow, I never saw that before. I've only seen TV news interviews with LE saying that people around here know how to react to this. Thanks for that. If I haven't seen that article before I don't think that very many people from around here have seen it as well.

 

[mavryk]

From the RTV6 story four months after the murders, discussing why more information is not released to the public about the crime scene:

"Sgt. Holeman says it is difficult for someone outside of the investigation to see, but there is a reason for the limited public information.

'We use this term a lot – we have to protect the integrity of the investigation,' said Sgt. Holeman. 'Whoever did this is probably the only person who knows some of the details of this case.'

That’s because the hardest part of this case isn’t going to be arresting a suspect – it’s going to be proving, without a reasonable doubt, that that person is responsible for the crime, so they won’t be set free based on lack of evidence."

First, law enforcement are the experts, not me. And Delphi LE have received FBI help so I doubt they are just "small town bungling" their way through the investigation and release of information.

However, the scenario Sgt. Holeman referred to above would only be true if the investigation had homed in on a family member. It would NOT be true if this turns out to be a stranger abduction/murder.

Why? Because DNA evidence at the scene, if it matches any member of the family or extended family, could be explained away or justified. But DNA evidence from a stranger on either of the girls would not be. In that event, the hardest part of the case is identifying a stranger-suspect whose DNA is not contained in a database due to a prior felony conviction.

It is possible that LE spent the first few months focusing on (or trying to clear) family or extended family. The downside to that approach is that these types of cases, with two murders in a public location with girls from two different families, are far more often a crime of opportunity for a predator than a family member. And in that case, getting information out to the public to identify a suspect is more important than worrying about proving the eventual suspect guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in court.

This is why I think the case will mostly likely break only if (1) more information is released to the public and a tipster phones in (like in the Brianna Denison case); or (2) more DNA samples from the public are provided online and a connection is established to the killer's extended family.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Yeah, I have no idea how PIs work. I know they have more lead way then the general public but I think a lot depends on how much LE is willing to cooperate with them.

I also think the right PI would have to be employed. Former FBI and so on. I've looked briefly and have noticed that several PI agencies claim to work on murder cases, cold cases and so on and claim to be prior FBI agent and the likes.

Has anyone heard of a case where a PI has gotten involved and has successfully solved the case with the final outcome being a conviction?

A former policeman and DEA Agent turned Private Investigator took over this case when the trail appeared to be cold.

Shocking Twists as Woman Is Left for Dead

The results in this case have always impressed me. Its a bit of a long read.
I remember watching a TV episode (might have been 20/20) on how the P.I. discovered what happened to the victim and this P.I. has always stuck in my head as someone I would turn to if I ever needed that type of service.

JMO

 

[ScumbagTrav]

From the RTV6 story four months after the murders, discussing why more information is not released to the public about the crime scene:

"Sgt. Holeman says it is difficult for someone outside of the investigation to see, but there is a reason for the limited public information.

'We use this term a lot – we have to protect the integrity of the investigation,' said Sgt. Holeman. 'Whoever did this is probably the only person who knows some of the details of this case.'

That’s because the hardest part of this case isn’t going to be arresting a suspect – it’s going to be proving, without a reasonable doubt, that that person is responsible for the crime, so they won’t be set free based on lack of evidence."

First, law enforcement are the experts, not me. And Delphi LE have received FBI help so I doubt they are just "small town bungling" their way through the investigation and release of information.

However, the scenario Sgt. Holeman referred to above would only be true if the investigation had homed in on a family member. It would NOT be true if this turns out to be a stranger abduction/murder.

Why? Because DNA evidence at the scene, if it matches any member of the family or extended family, could be explained away or justified. But DNA evidence from a stranger on either of the girls would not be. In that event, the hardest part of the case is identifying a stranger-suspect whose DNA is not contained in a database due to a prior felony conviction.

It is possible that LE spent the first few months focusing on (or trying to clear) family or extended family. The downside to that approach is that these types of cases, with two murders in a public location with girls from two different families, are far more often a crime of opportunity for a predator than a family member. And in that case, getting information out to the public to identify a suspect is more important than worrying about proving the eventual suspect guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in court.

This is why I think the case will mostly likely break only if (1) more information is released to the public and a tipster phones in (like in the Brianna Denison case); or (2) more DNA samples from the public are provided online and a connection is established to the killer's extended family.

My lone problem with this article is we shouldnt pretend it was 2 years ago, rather he is saying it now.

After all, they switched gears in April. So everything else, the time, the work, the hard part, still applies more than ever imo.

"For more than 2 years, you never thought we would shift gears to a different investigative strategy. "

Thoughts?

 

[ScumbagTrav]

I know frustrations get high and we all want justice for Libby and Abby. But this labeling of Delphi locals as confused, scared, and not reporting, and questioning the investigation and whether they can get a conviction even before they have a suspect in custody is getting crazy.

With all the unknown its natural to try and fill in gaps, but some of this is just nonsense imo.

 

[mavryk]

My lone problem with this article is we shouldnt pretend it was 2 years ago, rather he is saying it now.

After all, they switched gears in April. So everything else, the time, the work, the hard part, still applies more than ever imo.

"For more than 2 years, you never thought we would shift gears to a different investigative strategy. "

Thoughts?

The article I was referring to, as I said in the original post, is from four months after the murders--June 2017: Delphi lead investigator: "We're close"

 

[ScumbagTrav]

The article I was referring to, as I said in the original post, is from four months after the murders--June 2017: Delphi lead investigator: "We're close"

I know. It just still applies today imo....because of the new direction since april.

 

[mavryk]

I think I understand what you're saying.

I guess my point is that I'm not really sure what they mean by "new direction," but I wonder if the original bases for keeping information confidential apply anymore. After two years, it's time to get the public involved in helping ID the guy. Not like they haven't done it that before, but to the extent there is more evidence to share, now is the time to do it.

 

[BigTexas]

Is this the officer who was having a relationship with a 17 year old?

Yes.

 

[ScumbagTrav]

I think I understand what you're saying.

I guess my point is that I'm not really sure what they mean by "new direction," but I wonder if the original bases for keeping information confidential apply anymore. After two years, it's time to get the public involved in helping ID the guy. Not like they haven't done it that before, but to the extent there is more evidence to share, now is the time to do it.

I hear you. As for wondering if keeping info confidential and getting the public more involved, thats suggestions/criticisms from the outside looking in. We dont know what they have or what they are working on. It isnt for us to decide when and if they release more.

My guess, if LE feels they need to release more to get more asisstance/leads, they will. The fact that they havent, tells me, that they arent there yet.

 

[mavryk]

I hear you. As for wondering if keeping info confidential and getting the public more involved, thats suggestions/criticisms from the outside looking in. We dont know what they have or what they are working on. It isnt for us to decide when and if they release more.

My guess, if LE feels they need to release more to get more asisstance/leads, they will. The fact that they havent, tells me, that they arent there yet.

Every single reference by any one of us will be from the outside looking in. I said nothing about it for two years but I am now--why? Because historically these investigations catch someone quickly or 10-20 years go by before a break. The fact that it is two years on indicates that they still have not identified a suspect.

 

[Blue Amethyst]

Well, I guess my issue is that LE specifically said the vehicle was parked in the lot of the old CPS building.
I have not heard LE retract that statement so I am not sure where GH is getting this other info and this is probably one reason this case has not been solved because most people are frustrated with LE and must think LE is lying to us about facts that they are giving to us, the public.
OR do they think LE is trying to get someone to say "oh..wait, No, that car/driver wasn't parked there, it was on side of the road, to which, LE KNEW that, and now the person is a POI ??
OR GH is speculating information but then everyone starts thinking what he is saying is true and forgets what LE told us. Probably another reason LE said the videos are incorrect. LOL

I asked once what GH's credentials were and nobody seemed to have an answer. I just don’t believe everything he says. MOO

 

[Pedrosmom]

What makes u fear that? They have admittedly held evidence from the public. We know there was more on the phone Libby had, as well as info from the scene and autopsies. I dont fear a conviction whatsoever. They just have to find him.

Consumptive evidence is such a minute amount, eg, touch DNA, that when it’s tested, it is destroyed and cannot be tested again. If they had enough DNA we would have a perp in custody. They can’t build a full profile of a person, search genealogy sites, create a sketch unless they have ample DNA to test. I think this is and has been a problem with this case, the crime scene, the water, the inexperience at collecting DNA - a whole gamut of oh crap, IMO.

 

[Pedrosmom]

I think I understand what you're saying.

I guess my point is that I'm not really sure what they mean by "new direction," but I wonder if the original bases for keeping information confidential apply anymore. After two years, it's time to get the public involved in helping ID the guy. Not like they haven't done it that before, but to the extent there is more evidence to share, now is the time to do it.

They have to be careful what goes out to the public. There are things that only the killer would know and I believe so more than anything here. If they get a suspect in for questioning, this is how they trip them up. By no means should they releas anything to the public that they haven’t so far. They’ve released plenty, more than a ton of cases in this forum. MOO

 

[Boxer]

I'm still perplexed that LE does not feel the need to warn the public about a killer on the loose. They merely said people around here know what to make of this and how to react accordingly (not verbatim quote but the meaning is the same).

I'm not in Delphi but pretty close by. My perspective may be a little different as to how I react to all of this. To me there is possibly a killer living among us "in plain sight". If LE doesn't know who he is how are we to know he will not strike again. Someone else's kids aren't in danger of being murdered. I do feel I have a personal stake in this and so do many in Delphi and surrounding towns.

Sometimes I'll have someone over to repair a washer, add an outlet or some kind of home repair. I actually find myself thinking...could this guy be BG.

MOO people around Delphi don't seem to know what to make of it. It's a blurry photo of a man on his way to kill.
Unidentified Suspect.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

I asked once what GH's credentials were and nobody seemed to have an answer. I just don’t believe everything he says. MOO

I recall from the very early threads here that he was introduced as a type of Crime Scene Reconstruction Specialist.
Please don't ask me to find the post.....

I will leave this as JMO

ETA
A link from Tricia introducing GH.

Crime Scene Animation by Websleuths Member grayhuze

 

[TL4S]

I hear you. As for wondering if keeping info confidential and getting the public more involved, thats suggestions/criticisms from the outside looking in. We dont know what they have or what they are working on. It isnt for us to decide when and if they release more.

My guess, if LE feels they need to release more to get more asisstance/leads, they will. The fact that they havent, tells me, that they arent there yet.

I'm with you on this. In GH's last video posted the other day, with the satellite map, he said when he sent it to Holeman, Holeman said they already had it. GH was happy to hear LE had looked into things like that, but I thought, man, of course they have.

In the article I posted yesterday about the DNA familial search, when asked about it, Leazenby said it was being, and had been, discussed. And for all we know, maybe they've even done it by now. I mean, you have the Delphi police, Carroll County Sheriff's office, ISP, FBI, and even a second opinion by Georgia law enforcement looking into this. Maybe more. I want to believe...

 

[Imvp2]

So, since the April PC , aside from KG, there haven't been any family members making any public comments or giving interviews.
I wonder why.

 

[ScumbagTrav]

So, since the April PC , aside from KG, there haven't been any family members making any public comments or giving interviews.
I wonder why.

Not entirely true. Others have made comments. But KG could have (perhaps unofficially) regulated as the family spokesperson as she is definitely out there more.

One from June one from July....

Grandfather of Delphi murder victim optimistic killer will be caught

Family still hopeful after police release new evidence in Delphi murders

And didnt several family members take part in Crime Con?