Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #113

[PezCandy]

The duffel bag has had me wondering about that too @margarita25
Maybe a witness seen one of the sketches and recognized a man matching similar description carrying a duffel bag on the side of the road, something stood out.

 

[margarita25]

The duffel bag has had me wondering about that too @margarita25
Maybe a witness seen one of the sketches and recognized a man matching similar description carrying a duffel bag on the side of the road, something stood out.

Yeah it was along the “Hoosier Heartland”:

“While investigators have narrowed their search to this one man for the time being, they have expanded the geography of their search. They believe that if the man was from Delphi, someone from the town of roughly 3,000 people would have already identified him.

"We're trying to get people that were driving down the Hoosier Heartland, that were on the interstate, that were in Logansport that might have saw somebody walking, hitchhiking-- if they saw a duffle bag laying somewhere, anything. We're just reaching out for people that saw anything within that distance," Riley said.“

Tips pour in after suspect identified in Delphi double homicide
PUBLISHED: FEB 20TH, 2017 UPDATED: FEB 23RD, 2017

Reading back, maybe not too much should be read into this as being necessarily “specific for a particular reason”? Idk. Perhaps they’re just saying this from a common sense basic question aspect, in case he were to have been a drifter...

Relooking at the statement, ”duffle bag “LAYING SOMEWHERE”” (have we talked about the caps part yet?). Oww my head.

Everything from LE is on a “need to know basis” which is great, whatever it takes.

So it’ll 6 months since the April PC on Oct 22, 2019. I hope LE has gotten some breaks.

—

ETA: Also from the same article above / BBM:

“City offices were closed Monday because of the federal holiday, but the city building was very busy with investigators coming and going.”

Hmmm...might have been a good time to “go hunting”...didn’t have to work on Monday...

“There’s a Reason for the Seasons...”
-@Foxfire

 

[margarita25]

Upstream recently there has been discussion about rage towards women, how they take can take it out on others, I believe it was a post from @Yemelyan in response to my post about the MacDonald Triad...

Anyway I just a Forensic Files rerun, iirc it was about the I-65 Killer in Florida (?) who was a cop...he had rage towards his wife/ex wife (I was half asleep, sorry didn’t get many details.) It was mentioned that during one of the assaults, he was literally saying his wife’s name out loud..something like that. Anyway, just wanted to mention that, that the killer on that show was literally manifesting other rage and it reminded me of that post here.

I think chances are fair he may have charges for DV, moo. Now whether or not those were dropped if they did occur...

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Random ramblings and things that bug me:

1) LE states very early on that they don’t believe there is a threat to the community or something like that. Makes me think very early on that they felt they knew the motive and who was involved and wanted to let people know...hey, no crazy serial killer here, he’s local.
2) LE has not been swamped by calls from the people of Delphi identifying BG. For two and a half years, with a $250,000 reward. Makes me think the killer is not local, and, in fact, is a crazy serial killer.
3) LE releases in July 2017 a detailed sketch of the suspect compiled from several people who saw this guy on the trails that day. For two years the sketch is distributed nationwide. Makes me think this is the guy. Thank goodness some people saw him.
4) LE in April 2019 declares 2017 sketch is absolutely not the guy. Makes me think 1) they’ve lost their minds 2) who did those people see on the trail? 3) there were two people dressed like that on the trails that day? 4) what the heck? 5) it’s OK...now, now they know who their looking for, arrest is imminent.
5) LE in April 2019 introduce a new sketch they have had for two years and declare, definitively, this is the guy, he is local, call us up and tell us who he is. Makes me think LE does not know who this guy is.
6) LE has not been swamped by calls from the people of Delphi IDing the guy. Makes me think he’s not local.
7) Theories abound saying the girls were targeted in some way, payback, revenge, settling some score. Makes me think who in the world would kill, brutally kill, two children just to get back at somebody. Meth head? Maybe. Makes me think, if the guy is local, and that out of control, and that violent, and that evil, everybody in Delphi knows who it is and LE would know who it is. Makes me think two years were wasted in this investigation.

 

[tresir2012]

Just saw this article. Thought it was interesting in light of the fact we’ve had discussions about Kik on this thread.

“Kik, the controversial social media app popular among teens, will shut down, its CEO said late Monday.

The Canada-based social network — once valued at $1 billion — ultimately became notorious as a destination for child exploitation. As reported by ‘48 Hours’ 13-year-old Nicole Lovell was murdered in 2016 by a man she met over the app. The chat tool was also linked to more than 1,000 child sexual abuse cases in the U.K., according to a BBC investigation.”

https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiELC2AOqRqq6AWT3X-BdBwBAqGQgEKhAIACoHCAowyNj6CjDyiPICMPDfxAU?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US:en

Yes I saw this too. Libby had Kik. "The chat tool was linked to more than 1,000
child sexual abuse cases in UK".
Anyone know of any such links in the US? This could be very relevant as Leazenby said they were targeted.

 

[susiQ]

Random ramblings and things that bug me:

1) LE states very early on that they don’t believe there is a threat to the community or something like that. Makes me think very early on that they felt they knew the motive and who was involved and wanted to let people know...hey, no crazy serial killer here, he’s local.
2) LE has not been swamped by calls from the people of Delphi identifying BG. For two and a half years, with a $250,000 reward. Makes me think the killer is not local, and, in fact, is a crazy serial killer.
3) LE releases in July 2017 a detailed sketch of the suspect compiled from several people who saw this guy on the trails that day. For two years the sketch is distributed nationwide. Makes me think this is the guy. Thank goodness some people saw him.
4) LE in April 2019 declares 2017 sketch is absolutely not the guy. Makes me think 1) they’ve lost their minds 2) who did those people see on the trail? 3) there were two people dressed like that on the trails that day? 4) what the heck? 5) it’s OK...now, now they know who their looking for, arrest is imminent.
5) LE in April 2019 introduce a new sketch they have had for two years and declare, definitively, this is the guy, he is local, call us up and tell us who he is. Makes me think LE does not know who this guy is.
6) LE has not been swamped by calls from the people of Delphi IDing the guy. Makes me think he’s not local.
7) Theories abound saying the girls were targeted in some way, payback, revenge, settling some score. Makes me think who in the world would kill, brutally kill, two children just to get back at somebody. Meth head? Maybe. Makes me think, if the guy is local, and that out of control, and that violent, and that evil, everybody in Delphi knows who it is and LE would know who it is. Makes me think two years were wasted in this investigation.

I'd say that pretty much sums it up

I myself, am still tied to the meth and retribution theory, but admit that there are other possibilities. It's just that there's SO much going on down there in Delphi and area surrounding the dark seedy world of meth, I just can't ignore it. Maybe it was a meth induced psychosis, but this guy was VERY proficient in executing this murder. NO pun intended. For that reason, I'm a bit leery of that scenario. It's not uncommon for someone higher up the Methamphetamine "food chain" to have someone else do the dirty work too. Perhaps someone who has spent some time in jail for being snitched on and has similar motive in sending someone a message.

OR, I have also contemplated something less likely, but possible nevertheless. Someone who lost a beloved child to this addiction. Grief mixed with anger is a powerful thing. In my mind, there is NOTHING more powerful than the love of a parent for their child. To see one's child destroyed by these drugs while the makers and dealers strike plea deals and go on their merry way to entice and destroy more young people could certainly stir up rage in someone that is not able to deal with their grief. I understand it makes no sense to then take the life of another child, even two, as it would be a hideous crime of passion, inflicting on another what you yourself cannot bear.

Somehow, this scenario would also fit a bit more neatly with the PC. As always JMHO and what's going through my fried brain
ed: changed word

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I'd say that pretty much sums it up

I myself, am still tied to the meth and retribution theory, but admit that there are other possibilities. It's just that there's SO much going on down there in Delphi and area surrounding the dark seedy world of meth, I just can't ignore it. Maybe it was a meth induced psychosis, but this guy was VERY proficient in executing this murder. NO pun intended. For that reason, I'm a bit leery of that scenario. It's not uncommon for someone higher up the Methamphetamine "food chain" to have someone else do the dirty work too. Perhaps someone who has spent some time in jail for being snitched on and has similar motive in sending someone a message.

OR, I have also contemplated something less likely, but possible nevertheless. Someone who lost a beloved child to this addiction. Grief mixed with anger is a powerful thing. In my mind, there is NOTHING more powerful than the love of a parent for their child. To see one's child destroyed by these drugs while the makers and dealers strike plea deals and go on their merry way to entice and destroy more young people could certainly stir up rage in someone that is not able to deal with their grief. I understand it makes no sense to then take the life of another child, even two, as it would be a hideous crime of passion, inflicting on another what you yourself cannot bear.

Somehow, this scenario would also fit a bit more neatly with the PC. As always JMHO and what's going through my fried brain
ed: changed word

You and I are pretty much on the same page.
For a long time I felt it was a crazy serial killer thing. Could not imagine he was local and nobody recognized him. Still can’t really. But that dark drug culture you mentioned gives one pause to think.

 

[Charlot123]

You and I are pretty much on the same page.
For a long time I felt it was a crazy serial killer thing. Could not imagine he was local and nobody recognized him. Still can’t really. But that dark drug culture you mentioned gives one pause to think.

I am NOT quite sold on meth theory, yet.

@StarryStarryNight, thank you for excellent presentation of the case.

I am sold on the theory that DC means well, but is not up to the task. If there another PC, I am not even going to listen.

Time has been lost, and I am getting hopeless.

Libby’s father never made a public comment. I wonder if it is profound grief, or shame, or something else. I feel very sorry for him.

Going after children is mean, mean, mean.

Regardless of the reason, let us pay attention to the drug problem in the country. I don’t know what exactly needs to be done, I see that prohibition measures don’t work.

Maybe breaking the black market is the way to go? Sacrificing our kids to the Moloch of drug cartels or own local criminals is not the way we should develop. Think of how the problem might be solved differently.

I have read several books on the history of the Prohibition, they are very telling.

 

[Justice101]

Following again...

 

[susiQ]

I am NOT quite sold on meth theory, yet.

@StarryStarryNight, thank you for excellent presentation of the case.

I am sold on the theory that DC means well, but is not up to the task. If there another PC, I am not even going to listen.

Time has been lost, and I am getting hopeless.

Libby’s father never made a public comment. I wonder if it is profound grief, or shame, or something else. I feel very sorry for him.

Going after children is mean, mean, mean.

Regardless of the reason, let us pay attention to the drug problem in the country. I don’t know what exactly needs to be done, I see that prohibition measures don’t work.

Maybe breaking the black market is the way to go? Sacrificing our kids to the Moloch of drug cartels or own local criminals is not the way we should develop. Think of how the problem might be solved differently.

I have read several books on the history of the Prohibition, they are very telling.

TBH, I want to respond to your post, but don't know how in a meaningful way, and not because I don't agree with what you're saying. It's just too overwhelming for me to address.

Where does one begin to get at the root of the drug problem in our countries? Is it even possible? So many factors are at play. For the addict, who knows. Do they reach for drugs to numb the pain of a life that appears to be going nowhere? A childhood devoid of proper nurturing and encouragement? Abuse? Were things okay with life but they were enticed into experiencing a high just for fun? Someone our family knows who broke free of a crack addition explained it like this: You can't even imagine how good you feel taking the drug, but it doesn't last long. When you come down you don't return to normal, you dive below what was your former "normal" experience. So you do it again, but it's not enough to get to where that first high took you and when you come down your mood is even lower than the first time. So you need more to get high and the lows get lower. You're always chasing that first high. Now, this may not be every addict's experience and meth may be different but this was his experience.

Then there's the makers and dealers. Someone who can't make it in the real world or someone who needs more money to achieve the lifestyle they desire. No morals, no conscience, no empathy. Self is God. Someone can say, "so and so couldn't hurt a spider," yet that person has no compunction to make and deal meth and destroy the lives of others to raise up self. How does one fight depraved human nature? It's not just in the world of drugs, white collar crime destroys people's lives too. Just look at the financial sector and what's been perpetrated there.

I could go on and write a short story but I'll leave it at that.
I just don't know how this problem can be fixed as we have no control over someone's character.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

My thought this week about the case keeps going back to...if the killer is local and he is so depraved, violent, evil, all those things...whether from drugs or just because he is all those things...that he would attack and brutally kill two children...no matter what the reason was in his mind....that that person because of prior behavior would be known to the people of Delphi and the surrounding community and to LE. And they would have called it in a thousand times and LE would have been all over it. So that means, in my opinion, either shame on people for not doing what’s right and shame on LE for lousy job or the killer is not a local. Just my thoughts. I’m just trying to make sense of all the stupid conflicting things we have heard.

 

[Blue Amethyst]

I have been reading some other sites. I am so glad that we do not post names of suspects here. Names are being thrown around that could be detrimental and ruin a person's reputation. If the person is innocent they must be devastated to have their name in public like that. Some people just don’t think how they can destroy another person with words. MOO

 

[Jax49]

Police expressed great concern in 2017 that the killer could strike again. moo

Sgt. Holeman said their number one priority right now is to bring justice for Abby and Libby’s family – but their second priority is to make sure something like this never happens again.

“The monster(s) that did this possibly could do this again, and next time it could be your sister or daughter or granddaughter or cousin – somebody you know and love and care about – and we don’t want that, that’s what keeps us awake at night as law enforcement officers.”

Delphi lead investigator: "We're close"

bbm

 

[I'm a katt]

You know what I just can't understand? If they couldn't get either girl on their phones then WHY did they give up the search that night. Obviously, if they weren't answering the phone something was wrong. Why didn't they get helicopters with flood lights or just flood lights. It is weird to me.
Two young girls missing at night, no answering phone...OK, don't worry we will pick it up in the morning.

Also at the press conference didn't the guy doing the talking say they had a wittness?? I think I remember him saying, you made a mistake, we have a wittness.

 

[Nadal]

My thought this week about the case keeps going back to...if the killer is local and he is so depraved, violent, evil, all those things...whether from drugs or just because he is all those things...that he would attack and brutally kill two children...no matter what the reason was in his mind....that that person because of prior behavior would be known to the people of Delphi and the surrounding community and to LE. And they would have called it in a thousand times and LE would have been all over it. So that means, in my opinion, either shame on people for not doing what’s right and shame on LE for lousy job or the killer is not a local. Just my thoughts. I’m just trying to make sense of all the stupid conflicting things we have heard.

Personally, i don't think he's local. I think he stayed there as a kid or had family in the area he visited which is why he chose Delphi but he stays outside Indiana now, possibly in a large City relatively close like Chicago. I moved away from a small town when i was 7, if i was to go walk around there now no one would recognize me 20 years later even though i imagine quite a few of the residents are the same. If it happened in Indianapolis i'd go with a local but Delphi is just too small IMO, although for all we know LE knows who it is but don't have the evidence. There's just so little to go on to form a proper opinion.

 

[Nadal]

You know what I just can't understand? If they couldn't get either girl on their phones then WHY did they give up the search that night. Obviously, if they weren't answering the phone something was wrong. Why didn't they get helicopters with flood lights or just flood lights. It is weird to me.
Two young girls missing at night, no answering phone...OK, don't worry we will pick it up in the morning.

I'm guessing the trail would be very difficult to search at night and they'd likely need to recover the ground they searched in the morning anyway in case they missed something. I doubt they stopped searching that night entirely, they probably did other work like asked locals if they saw anything or whatever.

 

[Nadal]

Following again...

Scroll to the top of the thread, there's a blue button that says "watch thread" in line with the page numbers, click that.

 

[JnRyan]

Personally, i don't think he's local. I think he stayed there as a kid or had family in the area he visited which is why he chose Delphi but he stays outside Indiana now, possibly in a large City relatively close like Chicago. I moved away from a small town when i was 7, if i was to go walk around there now no one would recognize me 20 years later even though i imagine quite a few of the residents are the same. If it happened in Indianapolis i'd go with a local but Delphi is just too small IMO, although for all we know LE knows who it is but don't have the evidence. There's just so little to go on to form a proper opinion.

I'm leaning in that direction. I don't believe he is currently local. I do believe it is possible that he either lived there at one time or was a frequent visitor. And as you point out he was likely young enough that no one would recognize him now. I wonder if he lived there sometime in the last 10-20 years. Or was a visitor there 10-20 years ago and the person he visited moved away or is deceased.

It would be a massive effort, but I wonder if an organization such as the FBI has computer software to do age progressions. Then, of course, LE would have to have a source like a middle school yearbook. IOW take the individual photos and age progress them.

 

[Nadal]

I'm leaning in that direction. I don't believe he is currently local. I do believe it is possible that he either lived there at one time or was a frequent visitor. And as you point out he was likely young enough that no one would recognize him now. I wonder if he lived there sometime in the last 10-20 years. Or was a visitor there 10-20 years ago and the person he visited moved away or is deceased.

It would be a massive effort, but I wonder if an organization such as the FBI has computer software to do age progressions. Then, of course, LE would have to have a source like a middle school yearbook. IOW take the individual photos and age progress them.

It's definitely worth a try, problem is we don't know how accurate the sketches are especially after the mixup.

Your first paragraph is exactly what i'm thinking, if he's fantasized about this for a long time then he could've thought it out well and carrying it out in an area he knows pretty well but could go unnoticed since he no longer has that connection and hasn't for a long time would unfortunately be a great idea.

 

[JnRyan]

Again I wonder about the reference to the possible duffle bag early on. This could simply be a guessed inference by LE based on initial thoughts that the perp could be a drifter, or perhaps this is specific due to the clothing or potential weapons aspect.

We heard about that person and a duffel bag very early on and then nothing ever again. That was strange. Like LE mentioning a vehicle at the CPS building - over 2 years later but not before then.