Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #116

[Awsi Dooger]

Thanks so much for your info. I have also seen your photos and videos. Just one question. What does "give me the under" mean?

It means I seriously doubt many people were at the bridge that day. In betting terms, let's say the number would be set at 3 people, besides Abby and Libby and Bridge Guy, at the bridge area that afternoon within the general window. I would take the under...less than 3.

I would be extremely confident taking the under. I would ignore all the details and all the interviews and all the YouTube desperation to place people there so we can get their story. I don't care about reports of people arguing under the bridge or walking their dog, etc. I believe Cheyenne was there and the flannel shirt guy sounds like an old local who frequents the bridge area quite often. Fine. I'll go with those two, in the general window. Otherwise I would rely on base normalcy. There is nobody on these trails. The local Delphi Reddit poster replied an hour or so ago that he has visited Monon High bridge trail 15 times and only twice has anyone else been there. The exceptions stood out so much he remembered the details of how old they were and what they looked like.

I fully believe it. Popular trails at major tourist spots draw traffic. That is not true at Delphi, no matter how much they tout the trails. Those trails rely on local traffic. Since the population is so low, then naturally not many people are there at a given point in time. I'm actually being quite generous in the dual acceptance above.

There is nobody on these trails. Posters in Reddit comments have made me more nervous than I ever was on site.

 

[JnRyan]

It means I seriously doubt many people were at the bridge that day. In betting terms, let's say the number would be set at 3 people, besides Abby and Libby and Bridge Guy, at the bridge area that afternoon within the general window. I would take the under...less than 3.

I would be extremely confident taking the under. I would ignore all the details and all the interviews and all the YouTube desperation to place people there so we can get their story. I don't care about reports of people arguing under the bridge or walking their dog, etc. I believe Cheyenne was there and the flannel shirt guy sounds like an old local who frequents the bridge area quite often. Fine. I'll go with those two, in the general window. Otherwise I would rely on base normalcy. There is nobody on these trails. The local Delphi Reddit poster replied an hour or so ago that he has visited Monon High bridge trail 15 times and only twice has anyone else been there. The exceptions stood out so much he remembered the details of how old they were and what they looked like.

I fully believe it. Popular trails at major tourist spots draw traffic. That is not true at Delphi, no matter how much they tout the trails. Those trails rely on local traffic. Since the population is so low, then naturally not many people are there at a given point in time. I'm actually being quite generous in the dual acceptance above.

There is nobody on these trails. Posters in Reddit comments have made me more nervous than I ever was on site.

With so few persons on the trail, this killer's presence - IF he was seen by someone other than Abigail and Liberty - would have at least been noted. I don't know if the flannel shirt guy frequents the trail (but I agree that it sounds like he does) he might have noted the killer as someone who was either there before or a new face. With such low traffic on the trail, what the odds that flannel shirt guy saw someone other than the killer.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

BG path from Freedom Bridge start of trail to Monon High Bridge
-.-
ends at the red barrier ...... and flowers at the South end of MHB ......

That doesn't mean they know what happened or where. Crime scene reconstruction is an absolute crock. It is an ongoing insult. There is no way to piece together exactly what route was taken, nor by how many people or in what order. You have disgraceful prosecutors arguing all the time in court that they can piece together how it played out. That is how you get preposterous verdicts like the Leah Askey/Russ Faria situation. Absolutely the same thing would have played out in the Kay Mortenson case, if the former wife hadn't come forward with the supporting details of the strange story. That couple would have been charged and sent away for life via a prosecutor supplying a totally false version of crime scene reconstruction. That prosecutor would have insisted no evidence of others there, besides the couple. Meanwhile there were multiple people in that house for a long time, committing one heinous murder while allowing two others -- the couple later charged -- to live.

Sorry, but that topic is a long time pet peeve for me, in fact my number one pet peeve in all of true crime. Just because blood splatter analysis came along and provided greater clarity in that area doesn't mean lawyers on both sides somehow can toss out preposterous point to point crime scene reconstruction. I would be in the jury box trying to restrain laugher. They are presenting perhaps a 2% likelihood and somehow pretending it as absolute.

Monon High an open setting subject to elements of all types. There is no way to piece together how it played out. Just once I wish we had a "solved" case and then an actual video showed up. That one example would destroy the myth of crime scene reconstruction.

 

[Falling Down]

With so few persons on the trail, this killer's presence - IF he was seen by someone other than Abigail and Liberty - would have at least been noted. I don't know if the flannel shirt guy frequents the trail (but I agree that it sounds like he does) he might have noted the killer as someone who was either there before or a new face. With such low traffic on the trail, what the odds that flannel shirt guy saw someone other than the killer.

I agree with the "over/under" from above posts. There would have been little foot traffic there that day, considering the time of year and it was a regular, non-holiday work day here in IN. I'd imagine that between 8AM and 4PM there would have been under 30 people there for walks, even though the temps were unseasonable.

People make it sound like "oh there should have been people in the area to see and hear this and that". I'm a hiker, and often times am alone for many minutes to more than an hour on trails, even in urban areas. Furthermore, only the Girard Reserve along that section of the creek is public property, the rest is private, and there are few ways in and out of the bridge area, or "choke points" as I call them. I can kind of see why BG would have been able to slip in and out of there, without more than a few witnesses being able to say they think they saw him. He planned it that way, probably observed that day, and perhaps other days, folks' behaviors at the short trails and the bridge area.

My hunch has been all along that people saw him before A&L got there, but those who saw him did not cross the bridge, and perhaps had been creeped out by BG.

JMO

 

[Falling Down]

I just breezed through J Kyle Keener's SM posts from around the time of the murders, the Pharos-Tribune reporter. He yanked the image of what he figured was an article of clothing in the creek, I now remember he did it over two years ago. Yet he left the commentary up about the clothing in the creek.

Also, and I think this is important when looking through his posts, he changed the dates of some of the information he shared, the dates of the FB posts, which anyone can do on that site. Just for reference.

For example, he posted, and I think it's still up, a post showing images he or someone else took near to the bridge area. Dated the 13th, which is impossible.

So I take some of the stuff I've seen over the last two and a half years with grain of salt...

JMO

 

[tresir2012]

It means I seriously doubt many people were at the bridge that day. In betting terms, let's say the number would be set at 3 people, besides Abby and Libby and Bridge Guy, at the bridge area that afternoon within the general window. I would take the under...less than 3.

I would be extremely confident taking the under. I would ignore all the details and all the interviews and all the YouTube desperation to place people there so we can get their story. I don't care about reports of people arguing under the bridge or walking their dog, etc. I believe Cheyenne was there and the flannel shirt guy sounds like an old local who frequents the bridge area quite often. Fine. I'll go with those two, in the general window. Otherwise I would rely on base normalcy. There is nobody on these trails. The local Delphi Reddit poster replied an hour or so ago that he has visited Monon High bridge trail 15 times and only twice has anyone else been there. The exceptions stood out so much he remembered the details of how old they were and what they looked like.

I fully believe it. Popular trails at major tourist spots draw traffic. That is not true at Delphi, no matter how much they tout the trails. Those trails rely on local traffic. Since the population is so low, then naturally not many people are there at a given point in time. I'm actually being quite generous in the dual acceptance above.

There is nobody on these trails. Posters in Reddit comments have made me more nervous than I ever was on site.

TY for explaining. Kelsi, Libby's sister has clarified maybe 10-20 people but noone has ever said when they were there so that most likely is thru the day. I know of maybe up to 10 by name from non quotable sources but believe 20 is a stretch. MOO

 

[Awsi Dooger]

Great post, thanks!

"Abby and Libby weren't overly concerned about a stranger accelerating in the late going. They anticipated an awkward greeting and nothing else."

Abby's mom did state in the Renner interview, about being allowed to listen to some of the audio before BG got to the girls. She said Abby voiced something to which Libby responded with a comment saying, but the trail ends up there we can't go that way...her mom goes on to say how the girls certainly weren't going to start crossing back over that bridge until BG finished crossing because there was no room to be on there together. It certainly sounded like Anna felt Abby wanted to physically go away from the approaching BG and then you have Libby starting the recording him after this.

I think it sounds lije they were uneasy with BG coming their way, nobody else was around. I think for whatever reasons, he made them nervous.

I think they were somewhat nervous. But that is within normal range, albeit on the high end. There are all types of awkward situations on trails. I walked trails in Pennsylvania, West Virginia and Tennessee on this trip, along with the Delphi area. It is so rare for someone to approach. Once they do approach you don't know if there will be words spoken, or eye contact, or anything at all. Often you get head down and the other person totally ignores you even if you gesture or say something.

Abby and Libby could have been in that exact situation thousands and thousands and thousands of times. Only once would it play out that way. I think my background as a gambler with applied situational odds helps me to understand that. The reason these cases become famous is the extreme rarity. Then everyone plays the safety card. Understandable. We know the result, the tragedy. But if Abby and Libby had scampered beyond the railing into that open yard then no doubt they would have been living their lives in fear beforehand, and not experienced softball or volleyball, etc. Sheltered lives at home.

On my trip I remember thinking several times that I was undertaking considerably more risky maneuvers than Abby or Libby did. I got away with it. No articles. No Websleuths threads. Normalcy prevailed.

 

[Falling Down]

I think they were somewhat nervous. But that is within normal range, albeit on the high end. There are all types of awkward situations on trails. I walked trails in Pennsylvania, West Virginia and Tennessee on this trip, along with the Delphi area. It is so rare for someone to approach. Once they do approach you don't know if there will be words spoken, or eye contact, or anything at all. Often you get head down and the other person totally ignores you even if you gesture or say something.

Abby and Libby could have been in that exact situation thousands and thousands and thousands of times. Only once would it play out that way. I think my background as a gambler with applied situational odds helps me to understand that. The reason these cases become famous is the extreme rarity. Then everyone plays the safety card. Understandable. We know the result, the tragedy. But if Abby and Libby had scampered beyond the railing into that open yard then no doubt they would have been living their lives in fear beforehand, and not experienced softball or volleyball, etc. Sheltered lives at home.

On my trip I remember thinking several times that I was undertaking considerably more risky maneuvers than Abby or Libby did. I got away with it. No articles. No Websleuths threads. Normalcy prevailed.

I agree with all of this, and can relate as an avid hiker.

BG was gambling, too.

JMO

 

[Awsi Dooger]

Interesting in that you state you got lost after going in the possible direction of the killer. In spite of the area not being that large. That would seem to indicate this killer seemed to be very familiar with the area. Unless, he has spent a lot of time in forests and is very comfortable in that environment.

I got lost in a possible alternate direction for the killer to escape. I did not cross the creek and go up to the bank by the cemetery. I did not want to venture onto private property. Apparently that route toward the cemetery is straightforward and not very far until you reach County Road 300. I would not have gotten lost in the direction most often proposed for Bridge Guy.

I went in the opposite direction, back under the bridge. Then I thought all I had to do was cross Deer Creek to the right and ascend up the hill back toward the trails near the beginning of the bridge. It still makes sense to me. I wanted to check out the lower section of the 505 trail.

I did manage to cross the creek on a downed log, as I showed in the pictures. I really have no idea how I ended up so far west. I would walk up a hill and check out the relationship to the creek. I was always still on the wrong side, and now the creek is too far down below. Too steep to go down and cross, too wide and watery to cross anyway, and too steep to ascend on the other side. So I kept wandering west in the woods, while listening to the traffic on State Road 25 and heading in that general direction. I finally emerged more than a quarter mile west of Freedom Bridge. That is closer to Delphi.

Regardless, my impression down there was that Bridge Guy had countless options, notably to the west. North is back toward State Road 25 and south is toward residential areas. If he knew the area or scoped the area he would have been aware he could traipse through the woods to the west without concern. I became far less convinced that he took that route back to the abandoned building. That takes you alongside homes and alongside County Road 300. There are no tall trees to hide within. He would be exposed along the road or look suspicious traipsing through short farm crops.

I did not check out the cemetery area. Maybe he parked nearby and never did walk back toward Freedom Bridge along County Road 300.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

But I also see no reason for the killer to carry the girls across the creek.

I agree. After visiting the creek area near where the bodies were found I reject that theory completely. The darn bank on the opposite side is 4-5 feet higher than the creek bed level. I took multiple pictures in attempt to display that. Why would a killer undertake that type of unnecessary risk? He could wrench his back and be wobbling around.

The bank on the bridge side is gentle. You merely walk out. Opposite side is a chore to ascend. If the girls were fleeing I think it also depends heavily on footing they encountered. That varied dramatically every time I approached the creek while trying to depart. Some areas were shockingly soft and my shoes plunged. Other areas looked soft but were not. If you're scrambling toward a 4-5 foot embankment and your plant foot unexpectedly gives way, then a pursuer behind you has an easy mark even if otherwise you seemingly had time and room to avoid him.

 

[sunshineray]

I think they were somewhat nervous. But that is within normal range, albeit on the high end. There are all types of awkward situations on trails. I walked trails in Pennsylvania, West Virginia and Tennessee on this trip, along with the Delphi area. It is so rare for someone to approach. Once they do approach you don't know if there will be words spoken, or eye contact, or anything at all. Often you get head down and the other person totally ignores you even if you gesture or say something.

Abby and Libby could have been in that exact situation thousands and thousands and thousands of times. Only once would it play out that way. I think my background as a gambler with applied situational odds helps me to understand that. The reason these cases become famous is the extreme rarity. Then everyone plays the safety card. Understandable. We know the result, the tragedy. But if Abby and Libby had scampered beyond the railing into that open yard then no doubt they would have been living their lives in fear beforehand, and not experienced softball or volleyball, etc. Sheltered lives at home.

On my trip I remember thinking several times that I was undertaking considerably more risky maneuvers than Abby or Libby did. I got away with it. No articles. No Websleuths threads. Normalcy prevailed.

I don't think young teen girls scampering away from something that makes them uncomfortable will lead to a lifetime of not experiencing life and all it has to offer. I grew up with a cop Dad and believe me I had a healthy dose of awareness "fear" drummed into me. I still did all sorts of things out in the world, more than I probably should have, haha.

I have also enjoyed hiking the woods throughout life, mostly in the Northeastern US and have found other hikers on the whole to be very friendly, even stopping to chat awhile.

 

[cryssyx3]

That doesn't mean they know what happened or where. Crime scene reconstruction is an absolute crock. It is an ongoing insult. There is no way to piece together exactly what route was taken, nor by how many people or in what order. You have disgraceful prosecutors arguing all the time in court that they can piece together how it played out. That is how you get preposterous verdicts like the Leah Askey/Russ Faria situation. Absolutely the same thing would have played out in the Kay Mortenson case, if the former wife hadn't come forward with the supporting details of the strange story. That couple would have been charged and sent away for life via a prosecutor supplying a totally false version of crime scene reconstruction. That prosecutor would have insisted no evidence of others there, besides the couple. Meanwhile there were multiple people in that house for a long time, committing one heinous murder while allowing two others -- the couple later charged -- to live.

Sorry, but that topic is a long time pet peeve for me, in fact my number one pet peeve in all of true crime. Just because blood splatter analysis came along and provided greater clarity in that area doesn't mean lawyers on both sides somehow can toss out preposterous point to point crime scene reconstruction. I would be in the jury box trying to restrain laugher. They are presenting perhaps a 2% likelihood and somehow pretending it as absolute.

Monon High an open setting subject to elements of all types. There is no way to piece together how it played out. Just once I wish we had a "solved" case and then an actual video showed up. That one example would destroy the myth of crime scene reconstruction.

hi from reddit!

I'm glad you mentioned Russ Faria, I enjoyed the dateline podcast, even if it was enraging. I keep seeing mentions of "I bet they know who it is, but there's an alibi someone lied about that's holding them up from an arrest" or what have you about an alibi. is there an alibi so strong that would prevent any movement from the police? I mean Russ Faria had witnesses and receipts proving he wasn't home during the murder and they said "nah, that's too convenient, you probably murdered her."

so what alibi could someone lie about that would stop the law enforcement?

 

[Charlot123]

I don't want to start any rumors as I am just brainstorming here. What if the shoe thing was more sinister. As in BG went into a rage bc Libby was trying to get away. He caught her, and let's just say there was something in that shoe (shudder......a foot). It would keep her from running away any more. *shudder* I hate that I even thought of this.

Just how bad was it? What do you think? And how rageful this person might be? And if what you imply is right, how can they even allow him to walk the streets of Delphi? Or think there is no risk to anyone else?

 

[tresir2012]

hi from reddit!

I'm glad you mentioned Russ Faria, I enjoyed the dateline podcast, even if it was enraging. I keep seeing mentions of "I bet they know who it is, but there's an alibi someone lied about that's holding them up from an arrest" or what have you about an alibi. is there an alibi so strong that would prevent any movement from the police? I mean Russ Faria had witnesses and receipts proving he wasn't home during the murder and they said "nah, that's too convenient, you probably murdered her."

so what alibi could someone lie about that would stop the law enforcement?

Maybe if they were driving someone somewhere and that person didn't have a licence themselves so that person lied and said the person drove them when in fact they drove themselves on a suspended licence. They unwittingly or knowingly gave an alibi to a murderer to protect themselves. AJMO.

 

[tresir2012]

Just how bad was it? What do you think? And how rageful this person might be? And if what you imply is right, how can they even allow him to walk the streets of Delphi? Or think there is no risk to anyone else?

I think the sheriff virtually admitted in the interview posted up thread that they did not want to instill panic by saying there was a threat. I also think that was why they said no foul play suspected the first night? To allay any fears. They had no clue really. MOO.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I don't put any stock in that statement, I've seen his SM post with the image taken from the bridge and there's nothing to it, in my mind. I haven't seen anything else about "clothing in the creek". The other thing is from where he was standing on the bridge he was about 3/8 of a mile from the CS, as the crow flies. Which he would not have known, and the CS can't be seen from the bridge, anyway.

Sensational, in my opinion. That and I don't know how someone could discern whether an article of clothing from a distance is for a male or female from 75 yards away, unless they could zoom in and focus on it somehow.

.375 miles = 1980 feet. Just for reference, let's say A&L were left 1800 feet from where he was standing, as the crow flies. Now throw in the sharp bends in Deer Creek, and the clothing being 75 yards (in his words) from him/the bridge, or 225 feet. I have my doubts about the clothing, or what he thought was clothing, or whatever, being related to the crime.

JMO

Thanks for your comments. I'm impressed with all your math but I didn't take his wording that way. IMO, he never said he was on the bridge; he said he was 75 yards away from the clothing...which was on the east side of the bridge. He could have been down along the bank with the groups of searchers.

From 75-yards away I could see girls clothing in Deer Creek east of the bridge

Regarding your other post, I agree to take everything with a grain of salt. However, we do know Libby's shoe was found and we take into consideration what is in the scanner thread...I tend to believe he saw clothing.

I see what you're saying about his timeline being a bit off. It was probably a very hectic 24-48 hours for him; easy to make a mistake on the time.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

I don't put any stock in that statement, I've seen his SM post with the image taken from the bridge and there's nothing to it, in my mind. I haven't seen anything else about "clothing in the creek". The other thing is from where he was standing on the bridge he was about 3/8 of a mile from the CS, as the crow flies. Which he would not have known, and the CS can't be seen from the bridge, anyway.

Sensational, in my opinion. That and I don't know how someone could discern whether an article of clothing from a distance is for a male or female from 75 yards away, unless they could zoom in and focus on it somehow.

.375 miles = 1980 feet. Just for reference, let's say A&L were left 1800 feet from where he was standing, as the crow flies. Now throw in the sharp bends in Deer Creek, and the clothing being 75 yards (in his words) from him/the bridge, or 225 feet. I have my doubts about the clothing, or what he thought was clothing, or whatever, being related to the crime.

JMO

You are making some very good points here.

Thank you for breaking it down like this.

I somehow had the idea that he was in the helicopter when he saw the clothing (from above) not thinking that he was on the ground and also not grasping the concept of how low the helicopter could actually fly in proximity to the creek.

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

You are making some very good points here.

Thank you for breaking it down like this.

I somehow had the idea that he was in the helicopter when he saw the clothing (from above) not thinking that he was on the ground and also not grasping the concept of how low the helicopter could actually fly in proximity to the creek.

JMO

It's interesting that you thought he was in the chopper. I never saw a photo of clothing by Keener but I seem to recall a screen cap someone took from the flyover video that was supposed to be the clothing.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

It's interesting that you thought he was in the chopper. I never saw a photo of clothing by Keener but I seem to recall a screen cap someone took from the flyover video that was supposed to be the clothing.

I recall the screencap as well.... a searcher who was in the water near the creek bank holding on to something in the branches, but I also have a fuzzy memory of a post here which debunked that theory.

JMO

 

[Falling Down]

It's interesting that you thought he was in the chopper. I never saw a photo of clothing by Keener but I seem to recall a screen cap someone took from the flyover video that was supposed to be the clothing.

Just for reference, he was a Pharos-Tribune reporter at the time, but the claim he made about clothing was on SM and not in a MSM article.