Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #116

[Justice101]

This bothered me from the beginning as well. I eventually came to my own personal conclusion that, yes, they have DNA - and - It's completely unusable. IMO if they had usable DNA none of us would be here right now.

Let's hope they do have DNA like in the case of Jesse Matthew, murderer of Hannah Graham and Morgan Harrington. They had DNA from Morgan's T-shirt that matched an attempted rape in Fairfax Virginia a few years before. They had plenty of DNA.. just no suspect or someone in any database that matched. Let's hope.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Another possibility - covering up for a local hero, a big-time role model.
The simplest question - who was manning the tip lines? Maybe some tips “disappeared” because the person(s) the LE trusted to screen tips was not trustworthy?

Maybe the combination of both these things ... MOO

 

[Charlot123]

This bothered me from the beginning as well. I eventually came to my own personal conclusion that, yes, they have DNA - and - It's completely unusable. IMO if they had usable DNA none of us would be here right now.

Nothing is completely unusable if it still exists, even in bits and pieces.

Some versions of what could have happened.

1) LE with his "Shack" outlook, did not really pay that much attention to DNA, it took a long time to process/divide the mess/mixture of them, and when finally came out to be compared to what is in GEDMATCH, the latter became, essentially, closed to law enforcement. Possible? Yes. They were following wrong clue for 2 years.

2) The BG managed to destroy much of the DNA, so whatever they have is too sketchy to nail him in - but it exists, and it points at him.

3) They do have DNA, and have matches (in CODIS or Gedmatch), but the DNA does not point at their main POI. In facts, it points at a very different person, who does not make any sense as an assassin, and they are trying to sort it all out.

4) It is a very possible situation, btw. A mix of clues. The car points at one person, the witness describes someone recognizable but different, the voice resembles someone but not the person who the witness points at, the DNA implicates someone very, very different. What is found around the south end of the bridge or at the clearing does not belong to any of them.

How the heck you make a case out of it? You probably methodically follow the clues - assign someone to a car, someone to the person pointed at by the witness, someone to trace the voice, and decide how much $$ you can spend on Parabon, or any other company working with DNAs.

But your manpower is limited.

5) the worst situation - the DNA is nonexistent any longer. Or the chain of custody is broken because one of their own, whom they trusted to deliver the DNA, is now among the suspects.

And this is what could have happened, and it could effectively close this case.

But not totally. In this case, the only way is to open everything they have. It will not nail the person, but it will cut any of his careers short.

In the meantime, they could work at the clues that Libby could have had... This part is still very workable.

 

[taximama24]

Did they say that she recorded it on SC? I always figured that she started her phone camera and that's how they got the video, especially because they said they got the media off Libby's phone, not snapchat.

The poster I was responding to suggested snapchat over my previous suggestion of vlogging as to why the rest of the chatter LE refers to as being just girl talk. Just bouncing ideas back and forth, no confirmation one way or the other from LE.

 

[busymcmoody]

The assassin theory for two little girls is a little too wild and far fetched for me. But hey, weirder things happen.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I still wonder about the possible similarities between the girls and the Watkins case still as it still gets thrown around now and then.

Imagine, it could be PERHAPS a new sort of serial killer, who thrill-kills (senseless) men, women, girls, boys, a duo or single victim, in several states over the years. Common ground: area, where it takes place (woods/trails/creeks/lakes/bridges/mountains/churches); the same weapons; puncture wounds to head/chest of the victim; murder in a flash; murderer in disguise; escaped into no-where. Hiding in plain sight after the killing, in HIS state, in HIS successful life.
I don't want to think, it could be something like that!

 

[IceIce9]

Has anyone considered the possibility that someone who knew the girls targeted them, but commissioned some t h u g to do the actual killing?

 

[Cutiekitty]

I agree. The only hangup I have with it being SC is that you have to actually then click what you want to do with it after the record time expires or you stop holding the circle down. Considering she got "down the hill" on the recording, I'm assuming she was completely preoccupied with BG and what was happening at that point that her video recording ended, and I can't reconcile how she would have completed the process to save it to memories, that is a small little button down in the corner....

You just have to click the save thing in the corner. If it’s the first time you’ve done it you also have to select where to save it otherwise it auto saves to where you set it. I was thinking about the conversations regarding reasons why she would have to factory reset her phone and one person said to save space. If a teenaged girl had SC set to auto save to memories and camera roll that would def take up space. I go back and forth with it.

 

[busymcmoody]

Has anyone considered the possibility that someone who knew the girls targeted them, but commissioned some t h u g to do the actual killing?

Some people here have but I don't see it. But then again, since we don't know a lot about the case all theories are valid.

 

[sunshineray]

Why have police not found man who teens filmed before their murder?

This is an article that I had not seen before from Sept 2019. It mentions the girls being found side by side and covered in undergrowth.


"Their bodies were hidden in the undergrowth on a remote hiking trail near their hometown of Delphi, Indiana, in the American Midwest.



They had been placed alongside one another, and although police have not released any details of the cause of death, it was clear they had been murdered.

Abby and Libby’s deaths reverberated through the small town, because it was unlikely that anyone other than a local would have known about the track the girls were walking on that day."

Wow thanks for posting this, I hadn't seen this one. Quite a few new tidbits in there from AW. My heart aches for her.

 

[JnRyan]

Imagine, it could be PERHAPS a new sort of serial killer, who thrill-kills (senseless) men, women, girls, boys, a duo or single victim, in several states over the years. Common ground: area, where it takes place (woods/trails/creeks/lakes/bridges/mountains/churches); the same weapons; puncture wounds to head/chest of the victim; murder in a flash; murderer in disguise; escaped into no-where. Hiding in plain sight after the killing, in HIS state, in HIS successful life.
I don't want to think, it could be something like that!

I'm thinking that is a possibility. It isn't new though. Ted Bundy ventured outside the immediate area where he lived and so did Israel Keyes. Robert Brashers also did the same thing. The Redhead Murders and the I-70 Killer are others:
Redhead murders - Wikipedia
I-70 Killer - Wikipedia

Bundy was caught. Keys was caught when he violated his rule of not killing where he lived. Brashers was never caught and by the time LE discovered he was a killer he had been dead for 2 decades. The serial killers of the Redheads and the I-70 victims have never been caught. Years ago the FBI created a task force to look into the possibility that long haul truck drivers might be committing murder in different jurisdictions.

I believe this is the only murder this guy committed. But your theory cannot be discounted. Keyes killed an elderly couple in the Northeast US and he was never on LE's radar till after he was caught for killing a young girl in Alaska. If Abigail and Liberty's killer killed a young man several states away and an older lady on the other side of the country, for example, LE isn't going to make the connection without DNA. And the killer here is apparently not in the system. IF LE has the killer's DNA. Of course, there are thousands of rape kits across the country sitting in storage untested. On top of that, some jurisdictions where there was a 10 year statute of limitations on rape destroyed the kits that were over 10 years old. Who knows, this killer could have committed rape in Georgia, Ohio or even the west coast and his DNA is just sitting in an unprocessed rape kit.

Sorry for rambling. Maybe I had too much coffee today.

 

[Fizzle]

My guess is that they only have touch DNA, but I hope that they can arrest & convict anyway.

Even if the sicko is already in jail for life (speculation only), I want him to be accountable for what he did to A & L.

 

[taximama24]

Yes thank you for that article @tresir2012 I also was intrigued by a few things. AW says this "Sometimes I pass someone, and my hair stands up. It’s strange" and I have to say, I feel like that instinct should never be discounted. Also, the pic they posted of BG on the bridge seems to answer the question of whether it was her phone or snapchat. The other two pictures have the snapchat icon in the corner, this one does not, so I presume its from the phones camera feature. I also have always assumed the timeframe they give for that "car parked at the abandoned building" of "1-5pm" was because of when they were dropped off, and when police arrived on scene and cleared the area. But this article says police were called at 5:30pm, so somehow that 5pm time for the car no longer being there is from some other info. Also, the girls being placed side by side is new, and to me at least, feels like it could suggest they were moved/positioned after they were murdered, which again, the time frame from when they posted the photo to when DG says he was there is so short...I'm almost wondering if they were placed there after dark.

 

[sunshineray]

Yes thank you for that article @tresir2012 I also was intrigued by a few things. AW says this "Sometimes I pass someone, and my hair stands up. It’s strange" and I have to say, I feel like that instinct should never be discounted. Also, the pic they posted of BG on the bridge seems to answer the question of whether it was her phone or snapchat. The other two pictures have the snapchat icon in the corner, this one does not, so I presume its from the phones camera feature. I also have always assumed the timeframe they give for that "car parked at the abandoned building" of "1-5pm" was because of when they were dropped off, and when police arrived on scene and cleared the area. But this article says police were called at 5:30pm, so somehow that 5pm time for the car no longer being there is from some other info. Also, the girls being placed side by side is new, and to me at least, feels like it could suggest they were moved/positioned after they were murdered, which again, the time frame from when they posted the photo to when DG says he was there is so short...I'm almost wondering if they were placed there after dark.

I know we are limited by what we don't know but if we take into consideration what has been said by LE and maybe a few not confirmed things possibly true, what category do we put BG in? IMO, I'm thinking an organized killer with a signature.

Serial Killers: Modus Operandi, Signature, Staging & Posing

 

[Charlot123]

Has anyone considered the possibility that someone who knew the girls targeted them, but commissioned some t h u g to do the actual killing?

Exactly. This is what I meant by "assassin". Some hired career criminal. The question is, why would the DNA not match him, the thugs would be in CODIS system, I assume. But there might be explanations for this.

If it was the hired criminal, I wonder if he is still alive.

 

[Falcon500]

There may be very many people who have this power or money, but not the person implied by the @Tiger Stripes.

But, if the person has power/money, why not hire an assassin? (That could explain the DNA not matching anyone.)

Another possibility - covering up for a local hero, a big-time role model.

The simplest question - who was manning the tip lines? Maybe some tips “disappeared” because the person(s) the LE trusted to screen tips was not trustworthy?

What possible reason would cause someone to hire an assassin to kill two pre-teen girls? The “person” who was screening tips? How about the 10-20 people who were manning the tip line? Why would one officer decide to throw away the magic tip that would solve the case? What possible reason would cause that to happen?

 

[Rossymom]

I thought this was an interesting arrest in Indiana. Dugger is quite a distance from Delphi. It is the young age of his victims that caught my eye, plus he resembles the NBG a bit. My own opinion.
Dugger Man Arrested for Sexual Battery

 

[flashy09]

Wow thanks for posting this, I hadn't seen this one. Quite a few new tidbits in there from AW. My heart aches for her.

The Sun is a pure tabloid, but somehow gets the info. They did a really good article on Serenity Dennard (runaway/lost 9 yr old from a remote Children's Home) as well. There is something off about the speed of the murders yet the care taken to place the bodies together and cover them. I can't put my finger on it, but a little more personal than a random attack.

 

[stattlich1]

Did people continue to search through the night, I mean, were people in those woods overnight even when LE was not, as LE had called off the search?

Did LE cordon off the entire area, and post sentries?

Anybody know who called off the search that fateful night?

 

[Trebor5591]

In the last photo Libby took, showing Abby on the bridge, there is a shadowy figure at the end of the Bridge, in the background, in the center. Could this be the Bridge Guy starting his crossing of the bridge? See attached photos.The 2nd photo is a blowup of part of the first photo.