Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #116

[HockeyMom330]

They (LE, DC) said, they believe he might have spoke n to someone about the murder. My feeling is, they got a “tip” from that someone, but the person who tipped them is not willing to testify (for understandable reasons). Then the LEOs rushed to look at the initial interviews, and (Lord!) noticed the car that they might have forgotten about (I honestly think they forgot about own scanner info). So now they either need a witness who would independently place this person on the bridge around the time of murders, or someone who is close to him crack up and shell out the information, or something else that would be a proof.

Because what they heard from someone BG confided in is not direct information, DNA buried in 20+ others is good but not enough, so they need something more direct.

This, or something like this.

I think the tip, if there was one as you state, was likely anonymous (but for some reason very credible). The PC was directed in part at this person, hoping their conscience would crack and they would come forward (LE begged for them to trust). I do think the vehicle increased in significance after reviewing their initial interviews. I don't think they forgot about it, so much as dismissed it or cleared the owner(s) based on a false alibi. That's why they need information about the driver of the vehicle, in order to place their POI at or near the scene of the crime in the time frame of the crime to unravel their alibi.

 

[Charlot123]

OK, here is what I am thinking today.

- he is probably local
- 40/60% chance acting alone or someone helping him; 2 people scenario is very possible. The second was somehow involved, but maybe not the killer.
- not quite sure that everything was over by 3:30 pm or whatever time we are given
- the person was a first-time killer but might have liked it and may kill again. So taking him to court, even if it ends in mistrial, will make his name known all over the country. It will prevent new killings. The initial mistakes of the investigation are irreversible, and I feel it makes no sense to blame the LE.

However, never taking the perp to court because he may "walk free" would be wrong. After court, he will walk free and be known. Now, he walks free - and is unknown.

 

[155etta]

That photo wasn’t taken at the Monon High Bridge. It was taken in an area of Deer Creek at a totally different location. There’s a series of photos not just that one. I won’t elaborate further as I’m not sure it’s allowed. FSG has never been identified by LE even though we all know who he is.

Thanks. My bad.

 

[book-thinker]

It means I seriously doubt many people were at the bridge that day. In betting terms, let's say the number would be set at 3 people, besides Abby and Libby and Bridge Guy, at the bridge area that afternoon within the general window. I would take the under...less than 3.

I would be extremely confident taking the under. I would ignore all the details and all the interviews and all the YouTube desperation to place people there so we can get their story. I don't care about reports of people arguing under the bridge or walking their dog, etc. I believe Cheyenne was there and the flannel shirt guy sounds like an old local who frequents the bridge area quite often. Fine. I'll go with those two, in the general window. Otherwise I would rely on base normalcy. There is nobody on these trails. The local Delphi Reddit poster replied an hour or so ago that he has visited Monon High bridge trail 15 times and only twice has anyone else been there. The exceptions stood out so much he remembered the details of how old they were and what they looked like.

I fully believe it. Popular trails at major tourist spots draw traffic. That is not true at Delphi, no matter how much they tout the trails. Those trails rely on local traffic. Since the population is so low, then naturally not many people are there at a given point in time. I'm actually being quite generous in the dual acceptance above.

There is nobody on these trails. Posters in Reddit comments have made me more nervous than I ever was on site.

Somehow, I imagined less foliage along the trail. Extremely isolated. That place gives me the creeps.
Some else was on the trail that day, besides the girls and BG. Did the witness or
witnesses mention the time they crossed paths with BG and or the direction he was going?
The trail is narrow enough in my opinion to see who is approaching me on the trail. (I’m talking about the witnesses.) Unless he pulled his hat low over head.
I’m a hiker some of the trails in the pacific nw are similar to Delhi’s trail. I make it a point of making eye contact and saying hi approaching hikers. This is for safety reasons and just being friendly.

 

[Nadal]

However, never taking the perp to court because he may "walk free" would be wrong. After court, he will walk free and be known. Now, he walks free - and is unknown.

LE should never take anyone to court unless they have a case against them. The DA or whoever would prosecute the case would likely reject it too unless they believe they have a shot at conviction, especially in a high profile case like this. I think this comment clearly shows most people are in this for their own curiosity and not justice or concern for the victims/family, as there's no other reason people would want LE to bring a case they would lose.

 

[Falling Down]

I doubt an award winning photographer would lie about this subject imo.
I also doubt he would post THE photo of the clothing on his social media.

Do we know exactly where he was at? Was he searching/walking in the woods along the creek on the east side of the bridge? Was he on the bridge when he saw the clothing? I don’t think we know those answers.

Which direction does the water flow in Deer Creek? From videos on YT I think It flows from where the girls were found around the curve and under the bridge.

MOO

It was posted on his FB account, then he yanked it.

 

[TL4S]

AFAIK, LE has never asked about anyone parked at the cemetery, anyone walking along CR 300, or any other roads north, east, southeast, or northeast of the area. Early on they asked if anyone was seen walking along Hoosier Heartland Hwy between Logansport and Lafayette, or vehicles parked at the trailhead, and now the vehicle at the CPS lot.

It's possible that LE staging at the cemetery might have destroyed evidence there, but I also think it's possible that there was some clue at the crime scene as to which way he left. If they had no idea which way he left, why only ask about (and conduct road checks/blocks) on the roads south, west, and northwest of the crime scene?

I agree that if this was a planned attack, with a planned location for the murder, the cemetery would be the most logical place to park. But as has been mentioned above, what are the chances that everything would fall into place just right for him to get those girls where he wanted them (which involved crossing a creek), without being seen, or heard, and with no evidence he was ever at the cemetery at all? There's a hearsay witness to someone leaving the cemetery, but we don't know if it's true, and that was during the OBG sketch era.

A lot of focus has been put on the fact that Abby lived south of the trail. That is curious. But I'm more interested in the fact that Libby lived northeast of the trail. There were only a couple rural routes KG could have taken to get to where she dropped off the girls. Who might have seen them driving? Who could have had reason to be on those roads already? How easy would it have been to drive past and see the girls get out, then drive around the curve and park at the CPS lot?

These are the thoughts that make me lean toward an unplanned attack that ended with BG wet, muddy, possibly bloody, and forced to find an alternate route out. Who knows, maybe he kept in the woods and cleaned himself elsewhere in the creek. Or lived nearby so walked an inconspicuous route home, cleaned up, then went back for his car later.

There are so many options in my mind. All my theories are like swiss cheese, though...

 

[Ozoner]

AFAIK, LE has never asked about anyone parked at the cemetery, anyone walking along CR 300, or any other roads north, east, southeast, or northeast of the area. Early on they asked if anyone was seen walking along Hoosier Heartland Hwy between Logansport and Lafayette, or vehicles parked at the trailhead, and now the vehicle at the CPS lot.

It's possible that LE staging at the cemetery might have destroyed evidence there, but I also think it's possible that there was some clue at the crime scene as to which way he left. If they had no idea which way he left, why only ask about (and conduct road checks/blocks) on the roads south, west, and northwest of the crime scene?

I agree that if this was a planned attack, with a planned location for the murder, the cemetery would be the most logical place to park. But as has been mentioned above, what are the chances that everything would fall into place just right for him to get those girls where he wanted them (which involved crossing a creek), without being seen, or heard, and with no evidence he was ever at the cemetery at all? There's a hearsay witness to someone leaving the cemetery, but we don't know if it's true, and that was during the OBG sketch era.

A lot of focus has been put on the fact that Abby lived south of the trail. That is curious. But I'm more interested in the fact that Libby lived northeast of the trail. There were only a couple rural routes KG could have taken to get to where she dropped off the girls. Who might have seen them driving? Who could have had reason to be on those roads already? How easy would it have been to drive past and see the girls get out, then drive around the curve and park at the CPS lot?

These are the thoughts that make me lean toward an unplanned attack that ended with BG wet, muddy, possibly bloody, and forced to find an alternate route out. Who knows, maybe he kept in the woods and cleaned himself elsewhere in the creek. Or lived nearby so walked an inconspicuous route home, cleaned up, then went back for his car later.

There are so many options in my mind. All my theories are like swiss cheese, though...

There's no evidence whatsoever that an attack was planned in advance against these two girls. I'm not sure why some people continue to cling to that idea; perhaps the thought of a double-homicide like this being random is too scary for some people.
It's possible that BG planned to commit murder that day, and maybe he had a vague idea of using the bridge as a trap, but his precise movements were probably decided in the moment.
He may have intended to sexually assault the girls and then kill them, or he may have intended only to sexually assault them but may have become enraged because he couldn't perform sexually. It's difficult to say without knowing how the girls were killed and how they were placed.

 

[Cryptic]

There's no evidence whatsoever that an attack was planned in advance against these two girls. I'm not sure why some people continue to cling to that idea;

Perhaps because the police have not ruled it out, nor have they even down played the possibility.

Instead, the police seem to be saying that there is not enough evidence to exclude either a targeted or random derived motive.

It's possible that BG planned to commit murder that day, and maybe he had a vague idea of using the bridge as a trap, but his precise movements were probably decided in the moment.

All very possible.

The fact that the perpetrator apparently did not park his car directly at the site might support a scenario of a pre planned intent for the day rather than a "loitering" for the "right" set of circumstances followed by an impulsive decision type scenario.

 

[almagata]

"These are the thoughts that make me lean toward an unplanned attack that ended with BG wet, muddy, possibly bloody, and forced to find an alternate route out. Who knows, maybe he kept in the woods and cleaned himself elsewhere in the creek. Or lived nearby so walked an inconspicuous route home, cleaned up, then went back for his car later."


For people who live in cities, having dirty clothing at the end of a day is very uncommon and draws attention but for people who live and work in farm areas, wearing clothes that have stains or are dirty at the end of a day is part of farm life.

I've been watching a show on Youtube called "Cole the Cornstar". Cole and his family are farmers in Iowa. They wear clothes that have stains on them. They wash them but the stains sometimes remain. They go to the parts store with clothes that have stains on them. They go and pick up lunch with clothes that have stains on them. They meet with representatives from various companies with clothes that have stains on them. They get dirty working on the equipment and during their normal work days.

My point is that dirty muddy clothing in a farm area does not draw attention like it does in an urban area.

I do think that the attack was likely unplanned and BG was able to walk out of the area unnoticed even with people looking for Abby and Libby. MOO

 

[TL4S]

You're right. I live in a rural area and dirty clothing in farm country does not necessarily draw attention. However, IMO, someone walking a trail system with wet and/or muddy clothes and shoes in mid-February might. I guess it depends the setting and/or if he had blood on him.

I've even considered that he was fishing below the bridge when he saw the girls. If he was carrying fishing gear, than being wet and muddy wouldn't look quite as strange. I haven't heard of any witnesses seeing anyone carrying fishing gear, but that might be the kind of thing LE keeps under wraps because only the killer would know he was fishing. IDK.

 

[stattlich1]

In my opinion, if LE likely interviewed him, or someone close to him, if they thought he could possibly actually be in the presser, if they claim him to be hiding in plain sight, if they believe him to be from Delphi, or have been from Delphi, if they state the NBG sketch is the man on the bridge, the person they are interested in, then, for me, I have to conclude BG is/was a local known to LE.

If I am to believe BG did not plan this murder, then how do I rationalize his presence at the bridge that day? Was it a place he visited often, and this day decided to sexually assault two girls, which led to the murders? He obviously had prior intent to interact with these two girls for some reason. The random appearance of the two girls that day, while he was there, is possible too, making it a crime of opportunity.

Maybe the actual murder was not planned, and maybe the interacting with these particular two girls was not planned, but some criminal act that day was planned by this guy. Possibly the next available target was all he was interested in.

I also must believe that he has/had SOME understanding of the local terrain. This guy knew the trails, the bridge, the path to the creek, the surrounding woods. OR, maybe he didn't. Maybe he corralled them down the hill, they ran, he followed, and the crime scene was random, simply where the girls ran whilst he was in pursuit.

However, I don't think this was his first time across that bridge, or in those woods. No matter his original intent that day, he almost had to have an escape route planned. To not have one would be extremely risky.

So he could have been there over the past weeks, numerous times, awaiting his opportunity. But do you really think he would have chosen TWO girls for sexual assault and/or murder? That in and of itself would substantially increase his risk factor. This is one of the reasons I think this murder was planned, if not murder, then some other reason to confront these particular two girls. He knew the girls would be there. And this is also the reason I believe there is likely another perp in the picture.

 

[stattlich1]

One more thought, in my opinion, the fact that someone, early on, took the initiative to steer the investigation down the wrong path, shows to me that there is more than one person involved in this murder, unless the NBG is the actual person that did so.

This little misdirection early on also leads me to believe that the entire thing is local, all the players are local.

Somebody's hidin' something. I believe that murder may not have been the objective that day, yet it very well may have been, however, a confrontation was planned that day, and it resulted in murder. What was the motive for the confrontation? Random guy wanting to engage in sexual assault/murder? I don't buy in to that premise.

 

[Vesta66S]

One more thought, in my opinion, the fact that someone, early on, took the initiative to steer the investigation down the wrong path, shows to me that there is more than one person involved in this murder, unless the NBG is the actual person that did so.

This little misdirection early on also leads me to believe that the entire thing is local, all the players are local.

Somebody's hidin' something. I believe that murder may not have been the objective that day, yet it very well may have been, however, a confrontation was planned that day, and it resulted in murder. What was the motive for the confrontation? Random guy wanting to engage in sexual assault/murder? I don't buy in to that premise.

Revenge? One suspect we have discussed here, had a motive.

 

[TL4S]

One more thought, in my opinion, the fact that someone, early on, took the initiative to steer the investigation down the wrong path, shows to me that there is more than one person involved in this murder, unless the NBG is the actual person that did so.

This little misdirection early on also leads me to believe that the entire thing is local, all the players are local.

Somebody's hidin' something. I believe that murder may not have been the objective that day, yet it very well may have been, however, a confrontation was planned that day, and it resulted in murder. What was the motive for the confrontation? Random guy wanting to engage in sexual assault/murder? I don't buy in to that premise.

I consider that BG might have known the girls on some level, and that when he saw them dropped off alone, he saw an opening to engage them in some way. Or he engaged on some level with them earlier on the trail and something happened to make him to follow them. I don't think they knew who he was, or if they did, it was by vague familiarity at best. So when I say unplanned, I don't necessarily mean random. But I also wouldn't be surprised if it was simply something about one of them triggered something in him. It's curious.

 

[sunshineray]

There's no evidence whatsoever that an attack was planned in advance against these two girls. I'm not sure why some people continue to cling to that idea; perhaps the thought of a double-homicide like this being random is too scary for some people.
It's possible that BG planned to commit murder that day, and maybe he had a vague idea of using the bridge as a trap, but his precise movements were probably decided in the moment.
He may have intended to sexually assault the girls and then kill them, or he may have intended only to sexually assault them but may have become enraged because he couldn't perform sexually. It's difficult to say without knowing how the girls were killed and how they were placed.

Without knowing everything their phones and social media accounts contained, it's really impossible to judge if either girl was being tracked or even groomed by someone online. We also know next to nothing about what their friends saw or talked about with them that could hold clues to a possible ominous presence in their lives, directly or indirectly. With all we don't know, anything is possible. With what we do know, just the small number of Delphians, the LE saying the killer is local, killer has probably been interviewed by them or someone close to them has been interviewed...just those things make it a real possibility the girls could have been stalked or enticed. AJMO

 

[Falling Down]

This, or something like this.

I think the tip, if there was one as you state, was likely anonymous (but for some reason very credible). The PC was directed in part at this person, hoping their conscience would crack and they would come forward (LE begged for them to trust). I do think the vehicle increased in significance after reviewing their initial interviews. I don't think they forgot about it, so much as dismissed it or cleared the owner(s) based on a false alibi. That's why they need information about the driver of the vehicle, in order to place their POI at or near the scene of the crime in the time frame of the crime to unravel their alibi.

Why are LE holding on to a vehicle description, though?

 

[Boxer]

MOO they saw the vehicle in a satellite photo -maybe in the later case review.

 

[Betty P]

"These are the thoughts that make me lean toward an unplanned attack that ended with BG wet, muddy, possibly bloody, and forced to find an alternate route out. Who knows, maybe he kept in the woods and cleaned himself elsewhere in the creek. Or lived nearby so walked an inconspicuous route home, cleaned up, then went back for his car later."


For people who live in cities, having dirty clothing at the end of a day is very uncommon and draws attention but for people who live and work in farm areas, wearing clothes that have stains or are dirty at the end of a day is part of farm life.

I've been watching a show on Youtube called "Cole the Cornstar". Cole and his family are farmers in Iowa. They wear clothes that have stains on them. They wash them but the stains sometimes remain. They go to the parts store with clothes that have stains on them. They go and pick up lunch with clothes that have stains on them. They meet with representatives from various companies with clothes that have stains on them. They get dirty working on the equipment and during their normal work days.

My point is that dirty muddy clothing in a farm area does not draw attention like it does in an urban area.

I do think that the attack was likely unplanned and BG was able to walk out of the area unnoticed even with people looking for Abby and Libby. MOO

Cole's show is addicting, haha! As for Abby & Libby's killer, I have to agree the killer wouldn't stand out if he just had dirt, etc. on his clothing. Pretty sure he would stand out some if he was soaking wet and/or had blood on his clothing.

I like the theory that he ended up going up the creek or through the woods to find an alternate way out from the crime scene. How does that square, though, with LE asking for info about cars parked at the old social services office that day?

 

[Charlot123]

LE should never take anyone to court unless they have a case against them. The DA or whoever would prosecute the case would likely reject it too unless they believe they have a shot at conviction, especially in a high profile case like this. I think this comment clearly shows most people are in this for their own curiosity and not justice or concern for the victims/family, as there's no other reason people would want LE to bring a case they would lose.

If we become personal.. why some announce that they leave and then return, seemingly to protect the reputation of the killer?

My opinion:
If LE knows but is not taking the case to court, we’ll have a future Dracula on our hands. Who will continue killing. Or might graduate, marry and have kids. Or set up a business. Or, if he is not in college, god forbid, get off his meds. Or move to any other neighborhood. Be our neighbor. Move out of the state.

This case will make him unwelcome in the country, in any house or city. It is safety for all of us.