Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #120

[Sillybilly]

Hey everyone,

Social media is off limits. Please stop discussing who may or may not have accusations against them in that wild and crazy world of social media.

Also, as time goes by it is hard to recall specifically what was in MSM and what was just social media, so please check out your sources and only bring it to the board if it is in fact MSM.

Thanks.

 

[Falling Down]

Has LE ever asked locals to call them with info about being asked about hiking trails in the area in the days leading up to the murders? I was just reading through the last few pages where the idea of a serial killer was being discussed and how it may not necessarily be someone local. And I can see that, but he would have to know about the trail system.

Now, you could Google hiking trails + Delphi, sure. But someone on here had mentioned when they went out to the trails they had a hard time finding the parking lot and almost passed it even though they knew what they were looking for. So it sounds a bit hard to find. And if it was BG's vehicle at the CPS lot, would that be a place to park that would be known to someone just merely passing through?

All just MOO but I wonder if any local person--could be a grocery store clerk, a server at a diner, a gas station attendant, etc.--remembers being asked about local hiking trail access by a man they didn't recognize the day of the murder or the couple days prior. If this was someone merely passing through (maybe a delivery driver or truck driver or someone else who had a reason to be driving through or to Delphi who had never lived there or even been there before) who had these sick urges to attack/kill people (maybe even having done it before but not being caught), maybe he posed as an interested out-of-towner asking casually about "Are there any good hiking trails near here where people go?" He could have been given directions and tips for finding a place to park at the Monon High Bridge area.

On a day to day basis, this would not necessarily be a suspicious interaction. You'd think it was just an out of towner making conversation and asking about a place to take a walk on an unseasonably nice day in February. Probably wouldn't even ever think of that conversation again...until this happened. I'm just curious if they ever got any tips to this effect (of course, we won't know, but it's just something I wonder about and is maybe a different angle of approaching this).

Good post.

I had a difficult time finding exactly where to turn off of IN 25, using GPS, and it was flaking out. Took me over two years to figure out why, I don't recall looking closely at the Street View for Old 25, which meets C.R. 300 right by the Freedom Bridge. Going south on 25, your only landmarks are the water tower just east of 25, the Andersons grain terminal, and the Freedom Bridge.

t hit me like a ton of bricks why GPS was flaky, IN 25 opened only in 2014, Google maps in 2017 when I went out there had not been updated yet, and the Street View is from 2008! The latter I discovered some months ago, and it floored me. If you look at this view, you can see the old alignments of 25, now Old 25, when you swing the viewer around guess what you see, and don't see? You see the Delphi water tower, and Andersons, but you don't see the Hoosier Heartland Highway, which would be between the Google vehicle and the water tower!

خرائط ‪Google‬‏‏

The Satellite view was last updated in April of 2017, IIRC.

Now you can put in grid coordinates and other doodads into a GPS to find, say, the MHB, but again I'd argue that even armed with that info, trying to find driving directions to the bridge area via Google are impossible. I just searched Logansport to the Monon High Bridge, and the blue line comes down 25, does the turn off, and stops there, Main Street on the east side of Delphi. Doesn't go up to C.R. 300, etc.

It just grinds at me that this guy had to have known how to get there, possible parking places, and where to walk on the trails to get to the bridge area. Then he had to have familiarized himself with the area around the bridge, the private properties, the private trails, and the CS, I believe he had the CS picked out well in advance. Easier to leave a body or bodies at that specific area on RL's land, and be far away when they're finally found, than to kill closer to the bridge or at some other point along that winding creek.

When I drove out there I used a YouTube user's video of their drive from Indy to get a feel for the area to turn off at, how to meander that short little maze of turns, then the beautiful drive on 300 to where the girls were dropped off. I credit their video with showing folks how to get there, otherwise I would have probably had to have asked for directions which would have been awkward.

JMO

 

[tresir2012]

I totally agree!
This was a very tragic case, there’s no denying that. But, realistically, there are tragic horrendous murders that occur almost daily in this country. So my question has always been - what is it about this case that drew so much attention from LE & the FBI? I know it’s not uncommon for the FBI to assist with cases such as this one, but their level of direct involvement was noticeably different with this one (or at least appeared that way to me)
Those FBI billboards went up nationwide! Don’t get me wrong, I salute their efforts to find this guy!! But when you look at the bigger picture, it was a double homicide in a small rural midwestern town.
IMO, there was SOMETHING about this crime scene that created an unusual amount of urgency at all levels of LE to apprehend this killer.

The presser from last April was also extremely unique. The emotion, the direct statements to the killer, what appeared to be an “abrupt” change in sketches, the abundance of religious undertones, etc,...
But the one thing that surprised me was their level of certainty that the killer should be considered a local at least at some level. I do believe the killer had to have some level of familiarity with the area, but I can’t help but think the term “local” may have been over emphasized.
I’m assuming that whatever new evidence that was discovered had to be of great significance in order to go from national billboards to insisting a local connection.
Too many oddities in this case to ignore...
All MOO....

I think initially it had the FBI's attention because it was a double murder and it was on the 13th. The head of the FBI at the time wanted to know about all murders committed on the 13th, because of MS13 IIRC.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Not sure, I've seen a few pics of folks of late that have all resembled BG, some local, some not. It's a quandary, is there the obligatory "elephant in the room" or a random evil stranger from another place.
Someone that kills 2 girls at once is a ballsy *advertiser censored* so I'd think this wouldn't be their first murder venture tbf. Could be wrong, I just hope this is solved-predominantly to remove a very evil and dangerous person off the street, but also to give closure to the families and bring justice for the girls.
This is just my opinion, my words do not have any gravitas or bearing on proceedings.

bbm
Let me say it this way: It maybe the "elephant in the room", which came from another place. MOO

 

[tresir2012]

Has the possibility of an Andrsons delivery driver been discussed? I know we have mentioned Packers but Anderson's delivery guys may have similar staging and waiting times or just need to take a break and a walk. Someone who would be familiar with the area both before and after the building of the highway. I have often wondered about it but have not ever seen it discussed.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

I wonder if LE have set up any surveillance covering the trail since Abby and Libby were murdered. Their killer may be revisiting the crime scene, infact if he’s local I’d imagine he passes by there regularly reliving his sick fantasies. I understand it would take many man hours reviewing 1000’s of hours of footage covering that area, it’s a huge task. But if they did install cameras there, maybe they would spot a familiar figure with a unique walk, hands in pockets head down, walking near the crime scene, perhaps on a Monday which is when these murders were carried out. I imagine he’s still there, still watching, still getting pleasure out of watching these PC’s from his home working out what LE know and don’t know. After 3 years he’s probably feeling pretty confident that he got away with this, maybe now he’s becoming even more smug and confident, returning to the crime scene every now and again, revisiting his dark secret and enjoying every second.
JMO

 

[Falling Down]

Has the possibility of an Andrsons delivery driver been discussed? I know we have mentioned Packers but Anderson's delivery guys may have similar staging and waiting times or just need to take a break and a walk. Someone who would be familiar with the area both before and after the building of the highway. I have often wondered about it but have not ever seen it discussed.

I've wondered about this myself, and after going over the before-and-after aspect of the IN 25 project in recent weeks makes me wonder if he somehow knows the facility. A driver could park and walk a short distance, or may have merely asked about the trails from an employee, then come back later in their own vehicle to check them out. That's the scenario I picture if a driver is involved, which could also fit in with a flexible or semi-flexible work schedule that time of year. Some drivers might even take unemployment insurance when an employer gets low on work.

There are Andersons facilities across the Midwest and Great Lakes agricultural regions, some are kind of specialized in nature, like gluten-free like the one in Iowa.

Their schedules are sensitive to market conditions, prices, crop harvests, and other factors.

Honestly I don't know why Packers was obsessed over so much.

JMO

 

[TL4S]

I always wondered about that law enforcement question in the early days, regarding someone walking along State Road 25. I think it would have been possible. You had the great map back on page 42 of this thread. I really appreciated it because it's very similar to the route I unintentionally took back to my car after visiting the bridge in November. I crossed the bridge but wasn't going to do it on the way back, not after two stumbles. I thought it would be simple to walk back under the bridge, crosss Deer Creek to the right, and rejoin the trail back to Freedom Bridge.

It was anything but simple. I never managed. But throughout that traipse through the woods I kept thinking how easy it was, and why has it so seldom been proposed for Bridge Guy? The only problematic area would be the initial segment back under the bridge and then the next 200 yards or so. That is fairly open and not far from the beginning of the bridge. Beyond that there was plenty of nothing. The only thing I ran in to was the tree of shoes, which I found out later was a tribute from the homeowner to a son who died young.

Unlike your proposed route, I remained close to Deer Creek and followed as it looped, looking for any opportunity to cross. Not close. It is far too steep on both sides. That is the only problem I saw with your proposed version, the segment between .77 and .87. That is not a gentle walk on level terrain across Deer Creek. It isn't anything like the area where Libby's shoe was found. Deer Creek near the early stages of the Monon High trail is down a severe embankment, and also the creek is quite yucky.

Unfortunately I didn't take many photos of that area but this one demonstrates the severity of slope -- enough to cause a mudslide -- and also the mucky nature of the creek. This is to the right of the early section of the trail, perhaps 60% of the way between Freedom Bridge and the trailhead:

Imgur

Your map on page 42 had Bridge Guy crossing somewhat right from that photo. I think the slope and the difficulties would remain. Anyone emerging in that area would really be wet, muddy and exhausted. Very high likelihood to draw attention to himself if anyone noticed.

In contrast, the route I ended up taking wasn't bad at all. From your map at .77 I ascended the bank to State Road 25. That is exactly where I entered, just prior to the highway bridge over Deer Creek. The shoulder was plenty wide. Maybe 2 cars zoomed past while I was walking the overpass. Once I passed the bridge I moved onto the grass at right. I happened to take a picture there, solely to remind myself of my travails back to my car, but it is also useful in this discussion:

Imgur

From that point you've got traffic seeing your back and nothing else. Those vehicles are headed toward Logansport. The ones coming toward are headed toward Lafayette. Best of luck to anyone on either side to describe you or own anything but a vague memory of yeah...there was a guy walking alongside the road.

And from the area I took that picture it is an easy walk underneath Freedom Bridge and then short distance around the corner to the spot of that abandoned building.

I'll try to paste the map from page 42, courtesy of TL4S:

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachments/exit-jpg.233561/

This is incredibly helpful for those of us stuck using satellite maps to picture the lay of the land. Do you think trail users could have seen BG if he'd gone any route through those woods east of the bridge, even along the creek banks as you did?

It was LE's hitchhiker comments that got me wondering about BG taking an alternate route out to begin with. It's me trying to combine the hitchhiker idea along with the car at the CPS lot. Originally, I did consider he simply walked on the hwy bridge over the creek, and you make a good point that his back would have been to traffic. IMO, it might depend on how messy he was, because if he didn't have blood on his clothes, or had been able to wash it off in the creek and just been a little wet, he could have taken the bridge. If he was bloody, soaking wet, caked with mud, whatever, maybe he looked for the easiest spot to cross the creek. Riley did say BG had to know where to, and where not to cross the creek.

Anyway, I truly appreciate your post and all the information and images you included. Maps are so important, IMO!

 

[gregjrichards]

I wonder if LE have set up any surveillance covering the trail since Abby and Libby were murdered. Their killer may be revisiting the crime scene, infact if he’s local I’d imagine he passes by there regularly reliving his sick fantasies. I understand it would take many man hours reviewing 1000’s of hours of footage covering that area, it’s a huge task. But if they did install cameras there, maybe they would spot a familiar figure with a unique walk, hands in pockets head down, walking near the crime scene, perhaps on a Monday which is when these murders were carried out. I imagine he’s still there, still watching, still getting pleasure out of watching these PC’s from his home working out what LE know and don’t know. After 3 years he’s probably feeling pretty confident that he got away with this, maybe now he’s becoming even more smug and confident, returning to the crime scene every now and again, revisiting his dark secret and enjoying every second.
JMO

I have wondered many times if he has gone back up to the crime scene to relive it. Money was granted to put up trail cams to make the trail safer but I don’t know if they are operational yet. I think it would be risky for him to go back perhaps he doesn’t feel the need because of a “trophy” he has kept.

 

[TL4S]

Has LE ever asked locals to call them with info about being asked about hiking trails in the area in the days leading up to the murders? I was just reading through the last few pages where the idea of a serial killer was being discussed and how it may not necessarily be someone local. And I can see that, but he would have to know about the trail system.

Now, you could Google hiking trails + Delphi, sure. But someone on here had mentioned when they went out to the trails they had a hard time finding the parking lot and almost passed it even though they knew what they were looking for. So it sounds a bit hard to find. And if it was BG's vehicle at the CPS lot, would that be a place to park that would be known to someone just merely passing through?

All just MOO but I wonder if any local person--could be a grocery store clerk, a server at a diner, a gas station attendant, etc.--remembers being asked about local hiking trail access by a man they didn't recognize the day of the murder or the couple days prior. If this was someone merely passing through (maybe a delivery driver or truck driver or someone else who had a reason to be driving through or to Delphi who had never lived there or even been there before) who had these sick urges to attack/kill people (maybe even having done it before but not being caught), maybe he posed as an interested out-of-towner asking casually about "Are there any good hiking trails near here where people go?" He could have been given directions and tips for finding a place to park at the Monon High Bridge area.

On a day to day basis, this would not necessarily be a suspicious interaction. You'd think it was just an out of towner making conversation and asking about a place to take a walk on an unseasonably nice day in February. Probably wouldn't even ever think of that conversation again...until this happened. I'm just curious if they ever got any tips to this effect (of course, we won't know, but it's just something I wonder about and is maybe a different angle of approaching this).

I would also be curious to know if anyone was asking around. Even if he'd lived there as a kid, things change and he'd maybe need directions.

My feeling is that BG was familiar with the trail somewhat already because it seems he knew how to corner the girls. Basically, he knew that once they were on the south side of the bridge, they had nowhere to go. The creek served as a barrier, and the trail virtually ended with very few options, so all he had to do was block their way back on the bridge. That's maybe how one man could control the situation. To me, him cornering them says more about him than the actual cs. JMO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Has the possibility of an Andrsons delivery driver been discussed? I know we have mentioned Packers but Anderson's delivery guys may have similar staging and waiting times or just need to take a break and a walk. Someone who would be familiar with the area both before and after the building of the highway. I have often wondered about it but have not ever seen it discussed.

OK, I need to be the dummy here. What is Anderson’s and where is it in Delphi?

 

[What if...]

I’ve been following this thread for awhile, and I have to say some of these recent posts are fresh ideas that are thought provoking. Much more enjoyable than watching entire threads discussing the possibility of a puppy or baby goat in BG’s jacket!

Just a few random thoughts I would like to inject into the conversation...

Regarding the creek crossing - I’m still not convinced that BG did in fact cross the creek. What if he confronted the girls at the end of the bridge, and acting in an authoritative manner, told them they weren’t allowed to be on the bridge? He could have told them where they should cross the creek in order to get back to their pickup spot. This would have funneled them straight to the area they were murdered. He could have watched from the bridge, and knowing the embankment was steep, he would have had plenty of time to cross back over the bridge and cut them off.

If he did cross the creek, there’s been a lot of talk about how his clothing appears to be layered. I’ve wondered if perhaps he had on a pair of waders that fishermen often wear?

As far as finding a way out without being seen, I think we should consider that he may have simply cut through the woods in the most direct route to his escape. I used to hunt on a fairly regular basis and foot paths were rarely used. With a little bit of camouflage, a person may not be noticed at all even if they were only a few yards off of the trail.

I haven’t had a chance to look into it, but in wondering about a connection to the IA case, are there any colleges fairly close to where the girls were abducted? I’ve wondered if the perp could be a college professor, or perhaps a student in IA that is now a professor in IN. IMO, is the two cases are connected, there’s definitely a professional connection. Perhaps a truck driver, but it could really be any profession that could be tied in to both general locations.

Just some random food for thought...

And all just MOO....

 

[What if...]

I would also be curious to know if anyone was asking around. Even if he'd lived there as a kid, things change and he'd maybe need directions.

My feeling is that BG was familiar with the trail somewhat already because it seems he knew how to corner the girls. Basically, he knew that once they were on the south side of the bridge, they had nowhere to go. The creek served as a barrier, and the trail virtually ended with very few options, so all he had to do was block their way back on the bridge. That's maybe how one man could control the situation. To me, him cornering them says more about him than the actual cs. JMO

I agree. I’m not sure “how” he did it, but I have a very strong suspicion that he “funneled” the girls to that location. Directed them? Led them? Chased them?
Not sold one way another how he got them there, but I don’t think this occurred at a random location. I think that spot was chosen ahead of time for some unknown reason. Perhaps the most concealed area? Something personal about that spot for the killer? Best area for a planned escape route?
The vehicle at the CPS building is possible, but IF this was all pre-planned, the cemetery would be the most logical to me.
I have no firm opinion on whether or not the girls were specifically targeted, I honestly flip-flop on that quite often. But I’m almost certain that there was at least some planning on the killer’s part prior to the murders.
All MOO....

 

[dotr]

I agree. I’m not sure “how” he did it, but I have a very strong suspicion that he “funneled” the girls to that location. Directed them? Led them? Chased them?
Not sold one way another how he got them there, but I don’t think this occurred at a random location. I think that spot was chosen ahead of time for some unknown reason. Perhaps the most concealed area? Something personal about that spot for the killer? Best area for a planned escape route?
The vehicle at the CPS building is possible, but IF this was all pre-planned, the cemetery would be the most logical to me.
I have no firm opinion on whether or not the girls were specifically targeted, I honestly flip-flop on that quite often. But I’m almost certain that there was at least some planning on the killer’s part prior to the murders.
All MOO....

Are'' regular ''people known to fly drones in the area, good way to spy and stalk, imo, speculation.

 

[TL4S]

Regarding the creek crossing - I’m still not convinced that BG did in fact cross the creek. What if he confronted the girls at the end of the bridge, and acting in an authoritative manner, told them they weren’t allowed to be on the bridge? He could have told them where they should cross the creek in order to get back to their pickup spot. This would have funneled them straight to the area they were murdered. He could have watched from the bridge, and knowing the embankment was steep, he would have had plenty of time to cross back over the bridge and cut them off.


And all just MOO....

Snipped for focus:

For quite some time, I've considered a scenario much like this, except I don't think he ordered them to do anything. What if right after the bridge video, the girls decided to avoid an encounter with him. Clearly he made them uncomfortable. The only way back to their pick up location was by going below the bridge and crossing the creek. In this scenario, BG would have recrossed the bridge, watching them the entire time, and taken the woods on the north side of the creek, meeting up with them somewhere up the hill from the cs, thus, "down the hill." I'm not sure anyone agrees with me, but especially with headphones, I think the audio sounds very near to running water.

The problem with this scenario is it doesn't necessarily jive with some of LE's comments. Riley has said BG had to know where and where not to cross the creek, and Leazenby has said BG must know the area to lead the girls where nobody could see them. In my over-analytical mind, I can say Riley meant BG crossed at some point after the murder on his way out, and Leazenby led them from the woods north of the trail, but maybe I'm reaching.

 

[tresir2012]

OK, I need to be the dummy here. What is Anderson’s and where is it in Delphi?

It's the big grain terminal on 300. You know where the CPS building is on that road the look acroos the road in the opposite direction to the new highway and it is right there. I'll see if I can post a link.

Delphi Grain Elevator - The Andersons Trade Group

 

[TL4S]

I agree. I’m not sure “how” he did it, but I have a very strong suspicion that he “funneled” the girls to that location. Directed them? Led them? Chased them?
Not sold one way another how he got them there, but I don’t think this occurred at a random location. I think that spot was chosen ahead of time for some unknown reason. Perhaps the most concealed area? Something personal about that spot for the killer? Best area for a planned escape route?
The vehicle at the CPS building is possible, but IF this was all pre-planned, the cemetery would be the most logical to me.
I have no firm opinion on whether or not the girls were specifically targeted, I honestly flip-flop on that quite often. But I’m almost certain that there was at least some planning on the killer’s part prior to the murders.
All MOO....

It is completely impossible to be sold on any one idea, IMO. I respect anyone who's willing to admit that and be open to new ideas, because there's just so much we don't know.

If the girls, for example, were not somehow bound together, than I could see multiple ways for things to go astray for BG. I see a possible situation where he's controlling A, so L takes off running. It's very comforting to think the girls stuck by each other's side, but we don't know that for certain, and honestly, L seemed pretty astute. Wouldn't it be a tempting thing to do to take off while trying to dial 911 for help? Who knows? Is that how her shoe came off? It's frustrating because there could be a thousand scenarios, but I do know Holeman says all the reenactments are wrong.

 

[JnRyan]

I have wondered many times if he has gone back up to the crime scene to relive it. Money was granted to put up trail cams to make the trail safer but I don’t know if they are operational yet. I think it would be risky for him to go back perhaps he doesn’t feel the need because of a “trophy” he has kept.

Regarding the two sketches, maybe, after seeing LE's first sketch and thinking they didn't know what he looked like, he did go back. Probably confident LE couldn't ID him off that sketch. Like the rest of us he didn't know LE had a sketch of him on the 17th and maybe that witness saw him again. That is one possibility that could have caused LE to change direction last April. ISP Superintendent Carter did address the killer stating that the killer did not believe they would change the focus of their investigation, but LE did change. If he did show back up later and was recognized as the man in the first sketch that would make sense that LE suspected he might show up for the April PC.

 

[TL4S]

Regarding the two sketches, maybe, after seeing LE's first sketch and thinking they didn't know what he looked like, he did go back. Probably confident LE couldn't ID him off that sketch. Like the rest of us he didn't know LE had a sketch of him on the 17th and maybe that witness saw him again. That is one possibility that could have caused LE to change direction last April. ISP Superintendent Carter did address the killer stating that the killer did not believe they would change the focus of their investigation, but LE did change. If he did show back up later and was recognized as the man in the first sketch that would make sense that LE suspected he might show up for the April PC.

That's an excellent idea!

 

[JnRyan]

I have wondered many times if he has gone back up to the crime scene to relive it. Money was granted to put up trail cams to make the trail safer but I don’t know if they are operational yet. I think it would be risky for him to go back perhaps he doesn’t feel the need because of a “trophy” he has kept.

Regarding the two sketches, maybe, after seeing LE's first sketch and thinking they didn't know what he looked like, he did go back. Probably confident LE couldn't ID him off that sketch. Like the rest of us he didn't know LE had a sketch of him on the 17th and maybe that witness saw him again. That is one possibility that could have caused LE to change direction last April. ISP Superintendent Carter did address the killer stating that the killer did not believe they would change the focus of their investigation, but LE did change. If he did show back up later and was recognized as the man in the first sketch that would make sense that LE suspected he might show up for the April PC.

That's an excellent idea!

Of course, being devil's advocate on my own post, one would think LE would have some kind of video surveillance on the parking lots. Then again, he could have avoided both lots and parked where the CPS building used to be.