Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #121

[Charlot123]

I'm not local but regarding that question I would wager under 3 for any day of the year. Calendar year 2016 go back with video evidence and allow me to make 365 wagers under 3. I love my chances at a decisive profit.

That's my beef with the theory, and basically my pet peeve with the case in general. Too many people prefer to believe it is an oft-traveled trail with hikers and sightseers galore. Baloney. There's nobody on those trails. I thought one of the most valuable posts that bitterbeatpoet made on Reddit was when he matter of factly mentioned that during 15 visits to the bridge since the murders only twice did he see someone else on the trail...one person on two different occasions. That is the real world regarding that bridge, and trails in general. It's not a decline due to the murders. It is representative of trails in general. I walked at least 10 trails during my fall 2019 trip. Every year I walk trails during trips. Unless it is a high profile trail with an incredible view at dusk you can guarantee you'll be alone or all but alone.

There was a great post recently in this thread with a woman detailing a recent experience on a remote trail with a stranger who made herself and her husband nervous. I knew exactly where she was going as soon as she began. One person after another would change their mind regarding Delphi if they walked trails and had the inevitable experiences like that. It doesn't have to be a local. They don't have to know the area like the back of their hand. Simply being on a trail places the aspiring offender at a massive advantage already. If ideal prey shows up there almost certainly won't be anyone else behind them. Or in front of them. Or down by the bridge. He can make mistakes during the commission because there's nobody to rescue the girls or tell on him.

If Bridge Guy had waited at the south end of the bridge he was in jeopardy of rotting away like a corpse, before any victims actually showed up. I don't care about the Cheyenne example or anything else. Give me the under. He schemed from the north end because once he had victims out there he knew there wouldn't be anyone else. I think Abby and Libby were having fun and took an extraordinarily long time to cross the bridge, beyond any estimate. Libby must have been taking dozens of pictures and also some videos. Once Bridge Guy gauged their pace he eventually ventured out there. I suspect he looked very normal for the first half of the crossing. He wasn't speeding with his hands in his pockets throughout. He was stopping and looking at both sides of the creek. He might even have taken pictures.

During this period he continues to evaluate the situation. He knows he has to look normal enough and non-threatening enough for Abby and Libby not to get scared and dash away. They would view his presence as more of an uncomfortable oddity that anything else. This idiot walked out onto the bridge while we're still here. Libby wasn't suspicious of Bridge Guy. She took an otherwise normal video of Abby completing her first trek across the bridge, and Bridge Guy snuck into the bottom right of the video in only the final seconds. He was now accelerating because he had a plan. An accelerated pace isn't unusual over those final 100 feet because the footing is more secure and the scenic aspect is basically gone since you're now within trees on both sides.

True, if you assume the trails are just a hiking place. But bridges, embankments and beaches are “marketplaces” of all kinds. It could be in Hawaii. It could be in Delphi, Indiana. What I want to say, maybe in 2017 the area around MH bridge was more populous than now?

 

[tresir2012]

I'm not local but regarding that question I would wager under 3 for any day of the year. Calendar year 2016 go back with video evidence and allow me to make 365 wagers under 3. I love my chances at a decisive profit.

That's my beef with the theory, and basically my pet peeve with the case in general. Too many people prefer to believe it is an oft-traveled trail with hikers and sightseers galore. Baloney. There's nobody on those trails. I thought one of the most valuable posts that bitterbeatpoet made on Reddit was when he matter of factly mentioned that during 15 visits to the bridge since the murders only twice did he see someone else on the trail...one person on two different occasions. That is the real world regarding that bridge, and trails in general. It's not a decline due to the murders. It is representative of trails in general. I walked at least 10 trails during my fall 2019 trip. Every year I walk trails during trips. Unless it is a high profile trail with an incredible view at dusk you can guarantee you'll be alone or all but alone.

There was a great post recently in this thread with a woman detailing a recent experience on a remote trail with a stranger who made herself and her husband nervous. I knew exactly where she was going as soon as she began. One person after another would change their mind regarding Delphi if they walked trails and had the inevitable experiences like that. It doesn't have to be a local. They don't have to know the area like the back of their hand. Simply being on a trail places the aspiring offender at a massive advantage already. If ideal prey shows up there almost certainly won't be anyone else behind them. Or in front of them. Or down by the bridge. He can make mistakes during the commission because there's nobody to rescue the girls or tell on him.

If Bridge Guy had waited at the south end of the bridge he was in jeopardy of rotting away like a corpse, before any victims actually showed up. I don't care about the Cheyenne example or anything else. Give me the under. He schemed from the north end because once he had victims out there he knew there wouldn't be anyone else. I think Abby and Libby were having fun and took an extraordinarily long time to cross the bridge, beyond any estimate. Libby must have been taking dozens of pictures and also some videos. Once Bridge Guy gauged their pace he eventually ventured out there. I suspect he looked very normal for the first half of the crossing. He wasn't speeding with his hands in his pockets throughout. He was stopping and looking at both sides of the creek. He might even have taken pictures.

During this period he continues to evaluate the situation. He knows he has to look normal enough and non-threatening enough for Abby and Libby not to get scared and dash away. They would view his presence as more of an uncomfortable oddity that anything else. This idiot walked out onto the bridge while we're still here. Libby wasn't suspicious of Bridge Guy. She took an otherwise normal video of Abby completing her first trek across the bridge, and Bridge Guy snuck into the bottom right of the video in only the final seconds. He was now accelerating because he had a plan. An accelerated pace isn't unusual over those final 100 feet because the footing is more secure and the scenic aspect is basically gone since you're now within trees on both sides.

How did he know that there was not going to be anyone home at those properties at the end of the bridge or at the crime scene where the girls were found? He either had checked them out earlier or knew the occupants would not be around IMO.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Whatever theory anybody throws out there, you would be hard pressed to convince me some random guy was just waiting out there for some random female or person to take advantage of. Its not possible in my book. It is but you have better odds of getting struck by lightning.

IMO there has to be some connection before hand.

100% agree. I speculate the Perp was traveling on the dark web undetected, and was communicating through social media that is extremely hard to trace, if not impossible (today).

I have also pondered whether the snap chat photo of Abby on the bridge was posted specifically for the benefit of who she thought she was going to meet....a means for him to quickly identify her?

amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Charlot123]

For anyone out there who is hung up on the short amount of time that this crime apparently took and what that might or might not mean about motive, check out the sad facts that surround the murder of Shelbey Thornburgh (I'm NOT suggesting her case is related to the Delphi murders). But it's a similar case in many ways and shows that for a lot of details in the Delphi murders where you might think "how could there be only touch DNA in a crime like this" "how could the whole thing be over in a half an hour" "how can the suspect be clearly depicted in video and still get away with it"....well, in 2015 it already happened:

1. Suspect was only in Shelbey's apartment for 23 minutes
2. Sexual contact occurred but no DNA was left behind from this
3. Hair evidence did leave DNA but it's not a match to anyone in CODIS
4. Suspect used burner phone and deactivated it immediately afterwards
5. Suspect is on video arriving and leaving, is walking quite calmly with no trace of blood on him after killing Shelbey. His face and gait are clearly depicted.

Shelbey's killer seems to have highly organized predatory behavior that has kept his identity secret so far in spite of the risks he took to commit the crime. Same thing may be at work in the Delphi case.

PS - Shelbey's murder deserves more attention. Her thread here on Websleuths is light but there is an episode of The Murder Squad podcast which gives many details.

Interesting case, thank you.

I wonder if the MO in her case, the handedness, the type of the woman attacked (petite blonde) matches some other cases in the country? I would not look specifically at the fact she was an escort, it might have presented an opportunity, but he is probably into online dating.

The way he walks, he is so relaxed!

(If I were to guess his Nr 1 hobby, it would be VR *advertiser censored*).

ETA: the killing place is well-chosen. A smaller apartment building, or a house, and the neighbors might have paid attention. But in these huge buildings, everyone is detached.

I also think that the perp knew exactly how much time he had. When her BF would get concerned, etc. He might have observed her life for several days prior to the attack. I wonder if there are earlier shots of him from the camera.

If her BF had an alibi that stands, he must have he’d plans for that evening. Anyone around him knowing he was “engaged elsewhere” that day.

 

[katydid23]

Whatever theory anybody throws out there, you would be hard pressed to convince me some random guy was just waiting out there for some random female or person to take advantage of. Its not possible in my book. It is but you have better odds of getting struck by lightning.

IMO there has to be some connection before hand.

It's happens a lot, but not the way you are describing it. PREDATORS are predators. And they go about their business but always have their eyes open for that perfect opportunity.

So I wouldn't say that the killer randomly 'waited there' for someone to come along. More likely he was out hunting that day, and he went a few places. But at this exact place and this exact time, he came upon two young innocent vulnerable girls, in a moment when no one else was around, and in a place that he could control them both. And he seized the opportunity.

I have also wondered if he may have seen the girls earlier with their sister. Did they stop at the gas station or a convenience store on the way? Because he may have followed them and seen the girls being dropped off alone, and decided to follow them in the park.

 

[Ozoner]

There is no available evidence of a meeting. There is a possibility that some forms of social media communication simply cannot be later reviewed.

Do you have any evidence for that possibility? Do you have any evidence that Abby and Libby had the expertise to erase their digital footprints well enough to fool the FBI?

The actual police have stated emphatically that no scenario has been ruled out.

The actual police, huh? Really? When did they do that? Did they say that emphatically in a recent interview (i.e., as opposed to during the first weeks of the investigation)?

I meet people I know everyday (well I did, prior to Covid-19).

On many occasions, I do not state their names before discussing the subject of the meeting. Similarly, people who used to speak to me before Covid-19 may or may not have stated my name prior to speaking.

On the most of the occasions there is no need to state names. Likewise, on some other occasions, I know who the person is and why I need to speak to them. I just don't know their name.

A bad straw man argument.

BBM
Now that's a bad straw man argument. I didn't claim that all acquaintances always address one another by name. In this particular situation, if BG had set up some kind of meeting with the girls, addressing them by name would have made it much easier to gain their compliance. Like it or not, his not using their names is evidence that he didn't know them. (What you do with people you know well is irrelevant.)
-
There's also audio of Abby and Libby, and they made no reference to meeting anyone; we know that they chatted about ordinary girl stuff. That's also evidence that no meeting was planned (like it or not).
-
Finally, they didn't seem to be very particular about what time they wanted to visit the Monon High Bridge. That's another argument against any sort of meeting (like it or not).
-
You also have professional profilers stating that the victims were opportune. No one is claiming that profilers can't be wrong, but their analyses need to be considered.
-
In short, you have no evidence whatsoever for any kind of meeting, and you have substantial evidence against that scenario.
-
I would suggest that the idea of a meeting is being driven by wishful thinking; you wish to believe that Abby and Libby couldn't merely have been random victims of a sadistic serial killer. Because if they could be victims, anyone could be a victim—including you, including your loved ones. Believing that Abby and Libby participated in their own victimization, even in such a small way as setting up a mystery meeting, makes you a little more comfortable. From a psychological perspective, victim blaming is at the root of your theory, whether you realize it or not.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Anonymous social networking/texting

Secret-Sharing Social Networks

14 Best Apps For Secret Texting To Try In 2020

Ten Apps Teens are Using that Parents Need to Know - Island Learning Centre

 

[Charlot123]

Do you have any evidence for that possibility? Do you have any evidence that Abby and Libby had the expertise to erase their digital footprints well enough to fool the FBI?

First, FBI did not report to us what they found...but in general, you know, if anyone can fool the FBI, it would be exactly two teenagers.

MOO.

I have seen teenagers fool their parents who were esteemed programmers.

I have seen so many cases of teenage hackers fool the adults. In digital world, young age is on their side.

 

[Cryptic]

Did they say that emphatically in a recent interview (i.e., as opposed to during the first weeks of the investigation)?

Again, they emphatically stated that no scenario has been ruled out.

As they have made no changes to their position, their position stands- until demonstrated otherwise. Can you demonstrate otherwise?

Do you have any evidence for that possibility? Do you have any evidence that Abby and Libby had the expertise to erase their digital footprints well enough to fool the FBI?

Fooling the FBI? Try reading my posts.

There is apparently no need to "fool the FBI". Evidently, some forms of social media communication cannot be retrieved by anybody. That includes the FBI.

An example of how common technology today can stymie the FBI are the California Jihader's phones. Retrieving the erased information would be impossible- even for them.

The FBI spent a lot of time in Court with Apple. A third party (not even the FBI had the expertise "in house") then showed them away to disable the erase function. FBI–Apple encryption dispute - Wikipedia

The FBI was not "fooled" by the phones. Likewise, there could well be no need to "fool" the FBI regarding certain social media communication. Rather, both are simply erased permanently- even for the FBI.

I would suggest that the idea of a meeting is being driven by wishful thinking; you wish to believe that Abby and Libby couldn't merely have been random victims of a sadistic serial killer.

No, I am simply stating that I don't know why the girls were killed- period.

As a result, the two possible general scenarios include:
- planned meeting
-random attack.

No, the police have not ruled out either possibility. Yes, even the FBI has limitations. No, one does not need to have say, Mossad or DGSI level technical expertise to severely hinder the FBI. Rather, you just need to buy an Apple phone.

I didn't claim that all acquaintances always address one another by name. In this particular situation, if BG had set up some kind of meeting with the girls, addressing them by name would have made it much easier to gain their compliance.

Actually you said this (pretty blanket sounding to me):

BG didn't address the girls by name (which he almost certainly would have done if he had known their names)

 

[TL4S]

I thought the theory posed by the hosts of the "Down the Hill" podcast was a good one. If you keep in mind two specific points, it makes sense. First, in the pictures Liberty German took before her video of the man on the bridge, there is no one in them. So if, for example, the girls passed the man before getting to the Monon High Bridge he must have waited a while before deciding to attack them. Second, according to one piece of public information, Abby said something like "Is that guy behind me?" when she got to the end of the bridge at which point Libby informed her that they could not go any further on the trail. This gave me the impression the girls had crossed paths with him earlier.

As for whether or not the killer planned or rehearsed the crime, I don't know. I think many killers don't do much planning, but that is my opinion.

I think the killer is someone who is an outdoor person, but I hesitate to go so far as to think he must be from Delphi, Indiana because of the remoteness of the Monon High Bridge. I think the killer may be familiar with the area because he travels through it a lot. I see an older man in his late 50's at least who could possibly be a truck driver. It could be that the sketches and the idea that he must be from the Delphi or surrounding area is what is causing so much confusion with solving the case.

Knowing the girls discussed where else they could go to avoid BG also leads me to think they had encountered him prior to the bridge. It could have been something he said earlier on the trail, or simply his behavior. LE has stated that they believe LG was wary of BG and filmed him purposefully.

In regards to him planning the crime, I believe the only rehearsal BG needed was to have been on that trail/bridge at some point in his life, then coming to the realization that it would be a very lonely spot to be if a crime was to occur. JMO

The broken record that I am, I still think BG might have already been on those roads that day, for inoculus reasons. He could have either seen KG and the girls driving and followed them, or he just happened to drive past when they were being dropped off. I know the timing would have had to been crazy lucky, on his part, but it was an opportunity.

 

[Ozoner]

Actually you said this (pretty blanket sounding to me):

Ozoner said: ↑
BG didn't address the girls by name (which he almost certainly would have done if he had known their names).

I thought we all knew that we were discussing BG's encounter with the girls; clearly, he refers to BG and the girls refers to Abby and Libby. My "bad" as kids today say.
<modsnip>

 

[MistyWaters]

100% agree. I speculate the Perp was traveling on the dark web undetected, and was communicating through social media that is extremely hard to trace, if not impossible (today).

I have also pondered whether the snap chat photo of Abby on the bridge was posted specifically for the benefit of who she thought she was going to meet....a means for him to quickly identify her?

amateur opinion and speculation

That’s an excellent point - was the SC photo of the bridge and Abby posted more or less immediately by Libby to announce their presence on the bridge on that day, a casual and innocent means of alerting an intended recipient? Was it her frequent habit to share photos by SC of happenings and activities or were these two photos somewhat of an anomaly? I don’t think we know the answer to that.

ETA - When I was that age - back in the day of the sole means of communication was the telephone - I recall it was very common for a couple of teens to be somewhere and decide it would be more fun if others joined. Then to make just a couple of phonecalls expecting the recipients would fan out the info to others as an invitation to join. The sending of the SC photos sort of reminds me of a modern way to do the same.

We also don’t know if there was any text accompanying the SC photos but early on iirc LE did say social media was an important part of this investigation.

While it’s been widely recognized this case is highly unique because Libby captured video including audio of the killer....but I think the fact that she also took and shared photos of the bridge and Abby online shortly before is another very unusual aspect somehow interconnected. If not one would have to write it off to total coincidence that Libby just happened to share last photos of the location near where their bodies would later be found.

 

[ab01]

How did he know that there was not going to be anyone home at those properties at the end of the bridge or at the crime scene where the girls were found? He either had checked them out earlier or knew the occupants would not be around IMO.

Or he was both extremely brazen and lucky

 

[TL4S]

I just finished part 9 of the podcast, and I wholly admit the profiler is fathoms above me in knowledge and experience...like leagues and leagues above. So it is with utmost respect that I have to say I'm not comfortable with everything she presented. Much of it I did agree with, but here are some differences I see:

• What she said about his likely traits seemed to conflict with what she said about outdoor crimes. IMO. The one thing we know about BG for certain is that he did commit this crime outdoors. (Okay, so some might disagree and say he brought them to a shack, but Ives said (paraphrasing) the girls were killed in the same place they were found.)
  
• She said he planned it and was not impulsive. I agree, he was not nervous acting/sounding in the video/audio, but I don't know that we can completely dismiss that the crime was impulsive. A risk taker could be confident and very likely present himself as in control. A risk taker has likely honed the skill of repression.
• He planned and possibly rehearsed a crime which involved taking a victim(s) across the creek, not entirely out of view of the bridge? I have trouble with that.
• I agree he likely went on with his life as usual. He had a lot of time prior to the crime to decide what he was going to do, and/or back out, but didn't. So yes, he's a cold SOB, but I don't think he necessarily HAS to be someone "normal." There are a lot of creepy people who creepy is their normal.

IDK, I'm almost certain I'm wrong on all accounts when I talk about this crime...

 

[sunshineray]

I'm curious in reading all your thoughts what everyone thoughts are as to just how many people were on the actual trails or in the surrounding landscapes of the trails that day? I don't mean residences, just in the outdoors.

 

[JDough]

Whatever theory anybody throws out there, you would be hard pressed to convince me some random guy was just waiting out there for some random female or person to take advantage of. Its not possible in my book. It is but you have better odds of getting struck by lightning.

IMO there has to be some connection before hand.

Respectfully; I disagree with your statement(s). There are many young female victims that have been murdered, assaulted, or kidnapped (randomly) by an unknown perpetrator. Many of them in rural/wooded settings. Let's take a look at a few (there are many more here on WS- not taking into consideration the cases that aren't):

CT- Kathleen Flynn
CT - CT - Kathleen Flynn, 11, Ponus Ridge, 23 Sept 1986
NC- Hania Noelia Aguilar
Found Deceased - NC - Hania Noelia Aguilar, 13, abducted and murdered, Lumberton, 5 Nov 2018 *Arrest* - #5
CANADA- Marrisa Shen
Canada - Marrisa Shen, 13, found murdered, Burnaby, BC, 18 July 2017 *Arrest*
MO- Angie Housman
MO - MO - Angie Housman, 9, St Louis, 18 Nov 1993 *ARREST*
AL- Cupcake McKinney
Found Deceased - AL - Kamille "Cupcake" McKinney, 3, kidnapped from party, Birmingham, 12 Oct 2019 *Arrests* #7
MI- Ally Brueger
MI - MI - Alexandra Brueger, 31, Fatally Shot While Jogging, Rose Twp, 30 July 2016 #5
WI-Jayme Closs
Found Alive - WI - Jayme Closs, 13, Barron, missing after parents found shot, 15 Oct 2018 *Arrest* #44
WA-Lindsay Baum
FOUND DECEASED - WA - Lindsey Baum, 10, McCleary, 26 June 2009
AL- Aniah Blanchard
Found Deceased - AL - Aniah Haley Blanchard, 19, Auburn, Lee County, 23 Oct 2019 *Arrest* #5
TX- Salem Sabatka
Found Safe - TX - SS, 8, Fort Worth, kidnapped while walking w/mother, 18 May 2019
IA- Mollie Tibbets
Found Deceased - IA - Mollie Tibbetts, 20, Poweshiek County, 19 Jul 2018 *Arrest* #47

I have no idea why these girls (Abby and Libby) were murdered on this day, in this location, but (at this point) I do believe it was a random crime of opportunity. I believe this based on numerous statements from investigators : "the killer had no way of knowing these girls would be at the MHB on 02/13". (Please refer to the many articles, press conferences, Scene of the Crime, and HLN's Down The Hill podcasts).

While I am not claiming that the girls were murdered by a serial killer, I believe some of the same circumstances may apply when choosing victim(s).

No one knows for sure why a (serial) killer will choose a certain individual as their victim. When asked why, (serial) killers often give a wide range of answers regarding the reasons for their murders. The most common belief is that the killer wants to feel complete control over another person.
[...] the circumstances of each murder should indicate that the killer felt a sense of dominance over the people they have killed. The victims must also be vulnerable to the killer in some way, a characteristic which indicates that the killer has sought to achieve a feeling of superiority.
https://www.crimemuseum.org/crime-library/serial-killers/serial-killer-victim-selection/

 

[somequestions]

I just finished part 9 of the podcast, and I wholly admit the profiler is fathoms above me in knowledge and experience...like leagues and leagues above. So it is with utmost respect that I have to say I'm not comfortable with everything she presented. Much of it I did agree with, but here are some differences I see:

• What she said about his likely traits seemed to conflict with what she said about outdoor crimes. IMO. The one thing we know about BG for certain is that he did commit this crime outdoors. (Okay, so some might disagree and say he brought them to a shack, but Ives said (paraphrasing) the girls were killed in the same place they were found.)
  
• She said he planned it and was not impulsive. I agree, he was not nervous acting/sounding in the video/audio, but I don't know that we can completely dismiss that the crime was impulsive. A risk taker could be confident and very likely present himself as in control. A risk taker has likely honed the skill of repression.
• He planned and possibly rehearsed a crime which involved taking a victim(s) across the creek, not entirely out of view of the bridge? I have trouble with that.
• I agree he likely went on with his life as usual. He had a lot of time prior to the crime to decide what he was going to do, and/or back out, but didn't. So yes, he's a cold SOB, but I don't think he necessarily HAS to be someone "normal." There are a lot of creepy people who creepy is their normal.

IDK, I'm almost certain I'm wrong on all accounts when I talk about this crime...

The thing you have to remember about profilers is that they are giving you their opinion based on years of experience studying crimes. I thought the profiler on the Down the Hill podcast came off as very intelligent. She simply was stating what she thinks based on her years of experience studying and probably talking to various criminals.

I think about the only part I disagreed with was when she said he planned the crime. What she may have meant is that he planned the crime if the right opportunity presented itself. So basically he was familiar enough to know the area could be used to force two girls off the trail to some desolate area away from the bridge so he could do what he wanted to do. But I would be very surprised if he knew he was on someone's private property.

I do not think it is a stretch to guess that the individual who committed this crime probably has visited numerous trails, forest preserves, etc. But I think, in my opinion, that just because he may know about the Monon High Bridge trail does not mean he has to be from Delphi, Indiana or the surrounding area.

 

[tresir2012]

100% agree. I speculate the Perp was traveling on the dark web undetected, and was communicating through social media that is extremely hard to trace, if not impossible (today).

I have also pondered whether the snap chat photo of Abby on the bridge was posted specifically for the benefit of who she thought she was going to meet....a means for him to quickly identify her?

amateur opinion and speculation

We know that Libby had the app Kik, which has been widely condemned. Not even sure that LE can trace that app. Anyone familiar with it?

 

[tresir2012]

I'm curious in reading all your thoughts what everyone thoughts are as to just how many people were on the actual trails or in the surrounding landscapes of the trails that day? I don't mean residences, just in the outdoors.

20 kids based on Kelsie's statement, not necessarily all at the same time. 10 adults eg couple under the bridge, Cheyenne and friend, flannel shirt guy, couple of dog walkers, 3 or four others, plus BG, plus the girls.

 

[rosesfromangels]

We know that Libby had the app Kik, which has been widely condemned. Not even sure that LE can trace that app. Anyone familiar with it?

Westfield police warn of children sexting on Kik app