Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #121

[Deleted member 102539]

My friend just suggested to me, maybe BG is a representative for agricultural machinery, who came around a lot.
Just saying.

 

[scadagirl28]

I get the same impression from the community but don’t really understand it. If BG is a well known and popular member of the Delphi community, why would LG surreptitiously record him on the bridge? Also... if BG is such a great chameleon who can easily hide behind his (seemingly) affable personality, why wouldn't he continue this facade during his encounter with the 16-year-old witness (who later described him as “creepy”) on the trails that day?

This theory doesn’t make any sense to me.

The chameleon part might go with his ability to blend back in after the crime . He may have been prepared for variables. I interpreted her saying he went back to normal behavior. He may have never been affable. Moo

 

[cujenn81]

The chameleon part might go with his ability to blend back in after the crime . He may have been prepared for variables. I interpreted her saying he went back to normal behavior. He may have never been affable. Moo

I understand that's what the profiler on the podcast was saying. I was responding to that specific post -- the user I replied to said. They believe the community tends to lean more towards BG being someone who lives in Delphi and who may be popular or a pillar of the community. I agreed with them because this is also how I perceive the community.

I only added that I don't understand why the community would be leaning in that direction because it doesn't make any sense to me (at least, based on the small bit of info that has been provided to the public).

 

[tresir2012]

He has a hoodie, but laying on his coach jacket around his neck. It doesn't mean, the hoodie is on his head.

Some people see a hoodie on his head, some don't.

I wonder if it did blow up and down in the wind as some have suggested but FBI say hoodie anyway.

 

[Cryptic]

I’ve thought a lot about that private drive running under the bridge as well.

Other locals posting here early on said parking off the side of that road near the bridge was a common for fisherman.

My speculation is on the possibility the murders occurred during a botched kidnapping and instructions to go “down the hill” was the direct route to a parked vehicle, clearly visible from the end of the bridge.

I think a 'botched kidnapping' possibility could also work in conjunction with a planned meeting:

- One or both victims are contacted regarding a meeting. They are to return something, promise something, make an apology, or provide information etc.

- The girls arrive at the meeting spot. They see a stranger approaching them, get nervous and take his photo. They then either distantly recognize him or he just informs them that the actual meeting will be conducted 'down the hill'

- They comply and then do not give into the demands of the other party. This leads to an impulsive kidnaping attempt and then murder when the girls resist.

 

[drama_farmer]

When I look at the photo I keep trying desperately to zoom in, edit, make it sharper! I was hopeful that today's technology could do better than my laptop to bring the facial features and this beautiful photo that Libby took to better quality and really see who this person is! I know the things I see on tv for forensics is a bit of a stretch but really thought we had this technology to do better than this! Frustrating because it is right in front of us and we can't grasp it yet!

Everyone, try this:
Instead of trying to magnify the already lo-res image, do the opposite. View it on your computer from a few feet away, then a few more feet. I know it sounds super counter-intuitive, but our eyes/brain are funny that way. Sometimes, a little distance can provide clarity. Especially when it comes to poor quality video. JMO

 

[Michigan]

I do not understand how no one heard the crime being committed and how BG wouldn’t have worried that someone would hear the girls screaming. Were they really that far away from all others?

 

[JnRyan]

I do not understand how no one heard the crime being committed and how BG wouldn’t have worried that someone would hear the girls screaming. Were they really that far away from all others?

I've often wondered about that part. In one YouTube video by Anthony Greeno they have a lady scream in the general area of the crime scene and her scream could be heard at the other end of the bridge. I have heard of missing persons cases - Sierra Lamar? Jodi Husintruit? - where someone would later say they thought they heard a scream but really did nothing about it at the time. (In the case of Sierra Lamar the person said they thought it was a cougar at the time they heard it. That was chilling to me if it was a human in that distress.) I suppose someone could dismiss a scream as kids playing. But I've not heard of anyone coming up later and saying they heard anything - a gun shot, scream or anything alarming.

 

[JnRyan]

My friend just suggested to me, maybe BG is a representative for agricultural machinery, who came around a lot.
Just saying.

Wow! Now there's one theory I don't recall hearing before. Such a person could likely live a good distance from Delphi.

 

[Pavelsky]

Wow! Now there's one theory I don't recall hearing before. Such a person could likely live a good distance from Delphi.

I don't know why but I have always leaned toward the idea that he was a truck driver. Expanding that idea is worthwhile!

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Thanks to everybody who responded to the Day One questions!
Here’s some more questions if anyone would like to answer them.

Day Two

1) Were one or two people involved in the killing of the girls?
2) Was anyone else at the trails with the killer but did not participate in the killings?
3) Assuming there is only one killer, did the killer lead the girls across the creek or did the girls run across the creek to try and escape?
4) Do you think the girls were sexually assaulted?
5) Do you think the crime was interrupted and cut short by DG’s call to Libby that caused her phone to ring?
6) What weapon do you believe was used to kill the girls?
7) Were the girls killed in the woods where they were found?
8) If killed elsewhere, where do you think that was?
9) LE said the killer made a mistake. What do you think that might have been?
10) LE said there was a witness. What do you think the witness saw?

Thanks!

 

[cluciano63]

I think a 'botched kidnapping' possibility could also work in conjunction with a planned meeting:

- One or both victims are contacted regarding a meeting. They are to return something, promise something, make an apology, or provide information etc.

- The girls arrive at the meeting spot. They see a stranger approaching them, get nervous and take his photo. They then either distantly recognize him or he just informs them that the actual meeting will be conducted 'down the hill'

- They comply and then do not give into the demands of the other party. This leads to an impulsive kidnaping attempt and then murder when the girls resist.

I think there would be some record of any contact to either girl by anyone they could not identify...jmo.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Thanks to everybody who responded to the Day One questions!
Here’s some more questions if anyone would like to answer them.

Day Two

1) Were one or two people involved in the killing of the girls?
I flip-flop on this. I have wondered if the second sketch was an accomplice. However, if forced to choose one or the other, I will say solo.

2) Was anyone else at the trails with the killer but did not participate in the killings?
No

3) Assuming there is only one killer, did the killer lead the girls across the creek or did the girls run across the creek to try and escape?
My guess is that he had a knife to one of their throats, or a gun to one of their heads. He held on to one and instructed the other to proceed forward, with the Perp and the girl he held following. I think he grabbed Abby.

4) Do you think the girls were sexually assaulted?
One of them

5) Do you think the crime was interrupted and cut short by DG’s call to Libby that caused her phone to ring?
No

6) What weapon do you believe was used to kill the girls?
Combination of strangulation/hanging & knife wounds

7) Were the girls killed in the woods where they were found?
yes

8) If killed elsewhere, where do you think that was?
N/A

9) LE said the killer made a mistake. What do you think that might have been?
Left something behind; a receipt, a lighter, a cigarette butt, an empty pint bottle, zip ties, etc. or very distinct boot prints

10) LE said there was a witness. What do you think the witness saw?
The Perp lurking off trail or the Perp leaving and looking suspicious enough to catch the attention of the Witness.

Amateur opinion and speculation

Thanks!

 

[Charlot123]

Yes, I like venison, but it can't be cooked like beef or pork. It is very lean meat requires some fat to be introduced in cooking, especially frying. Quail is another I really liked. However, while I liked hunting doves or ducks, I never ate them because I did not like the meat, but at least one member of family did like it. Were it not for that I wouldn't have hunted them. I never hunted anything I or a member of my family would not eat.

Being a member of the military, it is somewhat offensive for others to hang on to the myth that most military 'get used to killing' in war. Most never do. I have at least relative who could never get out of veteran's military facilities due to his PTSD. Yes, part of that is due to the stress of just being in the field, but part of that is not getting over the fact that he took someone's life. My own father spent over 2 years in combat and his stories were almost always about non-combat stories about life in the military and what he and others did in their down time. BUT decades after the war if he fell asleep watching TV we had to be careful how we woke him up. Family members who knew him before he went into the military said he wasn't like that before. Of all the special operations men I've known I've NEVER heard even one talk about what they did in combat.

I've heard of Zimbardo's work. But Zimbardo to the best of my knowledge has no first hand experience with combat and almost all of his work involves life in a correctional facility. He did do some work on Abu Ghraib, but even his opinions on that are not universally accepted by those in the same field of work. Some have tried to extrapolate his work into the combat experience, but most who deal with veterans disagree that being involuntarily imprisoned is not the same as those who voluntarily join the military. If you want to read a more relevant book about veterans, killing in combat and PTSD, I would recommend "Haunted by Combat: Understanding PTSD in War Veterans".

@JnRyan, I honestly think that people have two sides to them. We are carnivores, we are predators. I think any of us can kill. The difference is, some hate it, some develop detachment, and a small group enjoys it. Even the kindest religion, the Jains, allow killing - if you or your family is attacked, and at war. I assume when they come back, they go to their traditions (walking barefooted to praying places, not to step on an ant), but the old reflexes...if they are attacked, I think they can respond, right?

As to Zimbardo, I think he should be respected because he was the witness for the defense for Abu Ghraib criminals. Surely it would have begun easier to "go with the flow", to be on the accusers' side. His theory was, “everyone can just explain these crimes by “a few rotten apples”, but I saw the same in my Cambridge experiment”.

I could tell more, as I love history, but suffice to say that fear and the need to survive bring out the worst in people who might have not been born or raised aggressive. I have thought much about it - I am gathering family history, and had enough time to ponder over people's destinies, and ways of survival.

It is easy to accuse. I feel we were simply lucky that we were not born in Russia, or Germany, or China of the first half of the XX century. And I probably would protest against the Vietnam war, but never yell at the soldiers coming back. I just know that “we were not there”, and we'd be exactly the same in their place.

(BTW, because of the unpopularity of the Vietnam war, this human tragedy of the soldiers returning back has never been discussed enough).

 

[Charlot123]

Thanks to everybody who responded to the Day One questions!
Here’s some more questions if anyone would like to answer them.

Day Two

1) Were one or two people involved in the killing of the girls?
2) Was anyone else at the trails with the killer but did not participate in the killings?
3) Assuming there is only one killer, did the killer lead the girls across the creek or did the girls run across the creek to try and escape?
4) Do you think the girls were sexually assaulted?
5) Do you think the crime was interrupted and cut short by DG’s call to Libby that caused her phone to ring?
6) What weapon do you believe was used to kill the girls?
7) Were the girls killed in the woods where they were found?
8) If killed elsewhere, where do you think that was?
9) LE said the killer made a mistake. What do you think that might have been?
10) LE said there was a witness. What do you think the witness saw?

Thanks!

You know, if there were two people, and one was a cool planner, and the other a crazy guy with brain burned out by meth, it could create such a scene- organized killing, little real traces, a horrible mess on top, and something to destroy the mess on top of the mess.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

Locals, on average, how many people would have hiked to the point on the bridge the girls did that day? Seems hard to believe he would lay in wait in such an untraveled (?) location?

amateur opinion and speculation

I'm not local but regarding that question I would wager under 3 for any day of the year. Calendar year 2016 go back with video evidence and allow me to make 365 wagers under 3. I love my chances at a decisive profit.

That's my beef with the theory, and basically my pet peeve with the case in general. Too many people prefer to believe it is an oft-traveled trail with hikers and sightseers galore. Baloney. There's nobody on those trails. I thought one of the most valuable posts that bitterbeatpoet made on Reddit was when he matter of factly mentioned that during 15 visits to the bridge since the murders only twice did he see someone else on the trail...one person on two different occasions. That is the real world regarding that bridge, and trails in general. It's not a decline due to the murders. It is representative of trails in general. I walked at least 10 trails during my fall 2019 trip. Every year I walk trails during trips. Unless it is a high profile trail with an incredible view at dusk you can guarantee you'll be alone or all but alone.

There was a great post recently in this thread with a woman detailing a recent experience on a remote trail with a stranger who made herself and her husband nervous. I knew exactly where she was going as soon as she began. One person after another would change their mind regarding Delphi if they walked trails and had the inevitable experiences like that. It doesn't have to be a local. They don't have to know the area like the back of their hand. Simply being on a trail places the aspiring offender at a massive advantage already. If ideal prey shows up there almost certainly won't be anyone else behind them. Or in front of them. Or down by the bridge. He can make mistakes during the commission because there's nobody to rescue the girls or tell on him.

If Bridge Guy had waited at the south end of the bridge he was in jeopardy of rotting away like a corpse, before any victims actually showed up. I don't care about the Cheyenne example or anything else. Give me the under. He schemed from the north end because once he had victims out there he knew there wouldn't be anyone else. I think Abby and Libby were having fun and took an extraordinarily long time to cross the bridge, beyond any estimate. Libby must have been taking dozens of pictures and also some videos. Once Bridge Guy gauged their pace he eventually ventured out there. I suspect he looked very normal for the first half of the crossing. He wasn't speeding with his hands in his pockets throughout. He was stopping and looking at both sides of the creek. He might even have taken pictures.

During this period he continues to evaluate the situation. He knows he has to look normal enough and non-threatening enough for Abby and Libby not to get scared and dash away. They would view his presence as more of an uncomfortable oddity that anything else. This idiot walked out onto the bridge while we're still here. Libby wasn't suspicious of Bridge Guy. She took an otherwise normal video of Abby completing her first trek across the bridge, and Bridge Guy snuck into the bottom right of the video in only the final seconds. He was now accelerating because he had a plan. An accelerated pace isn't unusual over those final 100 feet because the footing is more secure and the scenic aspect is basically gone since you're now within trees on both sides.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

Ahhh... I guess KG was more or less just announcing that John Walsh is doing a new show about the case.

Delphi murders: John Walsh to spotlight 2017 Abby and Libby case in Investigation Discovery show

O/T: This is my first time quoting multiple posts and I’m really impressed with myself for figuring it out!

It's actually going to be the son Callahan Walsh doing the report on Delphi. That is mentioned in the episode summary. John Walsh handles cases from the studio as narrator. When they send someone on a remote assignment it is Callahan.

 

[Ozoner]

I think there would be some record of any contact to either girl by anyone they could not identify...jmo.

I agree. There's no evidence whatsoever for any "meeting," BG didn't address the girls by name (which he almost certainly would have done if he had known their names), and every profile by a professional says that this was a crime of opportunity--yet some people continue to blather about previous contact between BG and the girls; it reads like victim blaming to me.

 

[sunshineray]

I get the same impression from the community but don’t really understand it. If BG is a well known and popular member of the Delphi community, why would LG surreptitiously record him on the bridge? Also... if BG is such a great chameleon who can easily hide behind his (seemingly) affable personality, why wouldn't he continue this facade during his encounter with the 16-year-old witness (who later described him as “creepy”) on the trails that day?

This theory doesn’t make any sense to me.

cujenn81, was there an article with that witness actually saying he looked creepy when she saw him? That was over by Freedom Bridge right? I remember BP saying the girls mentioned it in the little bit of audio the family was allowed to hear. I believe AW might even have mentioned it also. If you have a link I'd like to read it. TIA

 

[sunshineray]

I agree. There's no evidence whatsoever for any "meeting," BG didn't address the girls by name (which he almost certainly would have done if he had known their names), and every profile by a professional says that this was a crime of opportunity--yet some people continue to blather about previous contact between BG and the girls; it reads like victim blaming to me.

That's a very big jump from theorizing that young girls may have been taken advantage of by someone locally recognized or even catfished into meeting up with someone they met online and were deceived by to blaming them. I don't think anyone is ever blaming those two sweet girls for a monster's actions.