Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #122

[sunshineray]

Well this is something I don't recalled hearing about. BBM
"The composite sketch was created after
state police said they received new information from witnesses who were in the area at the time Libby and Abby went missing.

The suspect is described as a white man between 5-foot-6 and 5-foot-10, weighing 180-220 pounds with reddish brown hair and unknown eye color. Detectives say the man's hat was not drawn as described in order to make his facial features more easily recognizable."

One Year Later: Why the Delphi case isn't cold

 

[Kinderbelle]

I have searched around for a while about this and can't find anything referring to it. Why was the sketch changed so drastically? They are two completely different people.

 

[Charlot123]

I have searched around for a while about this and can't find anything referring to it. Why was the sketch changed so drastically? They are two completely different people.

It seems that they are. Maybe they were wrong, and OBG confirmed his alibi. And I could understand it, and accept, were it not one phrase said by DC on April 2019 conference. Imprecise citation, “we were onto something in the beginning”. So, they were following the right path in 2017...but OBG sketch was released in 2017... now they say the path was wrong and release the sketch of another suspect...but how then could they be right in 2017?... (I’m baffled and confused about the case).

 

[stattlich1]

It's an interesting notion of there being even more than two perps involved. I'm curious as to what kinda of senario do you think would have caused Libby to lose her shoe, if there were multiple people involved in getting them from point A, the bridge, to point B, the crime scene across the creek? It's those two bits of information that we know of that lend credence to less help, fewer or just one killer. IMO

Multiple people involved? I don't know, who does really? LE mentioned it in the vid I recently posted, a couple pages back. Personally I doubt multiple, as it increases the probability of someone talking.

Libby could have lost her shoe running, she could have been dragged along at some point, heck, her shoe could have been thrown by the killer.

I don't even recall LE or any other definitive source stating they in fact crossed the creek for that matter.

This is what I referenced earlier, there is so much we don't know as fact.

I tend to think they were forced down the hill, crossed the creek, and were murdered at the final murder scene, in a very short time period, with the killer heading out either through the cemetery, or in a direction away from the murder scene, assumed creek crossing, and bridge.

Here's a question I've thought of, when LE says they are 'one tip away', that they need 'one tip', do you think they are asking for a specific answer to a specific question?

Or is it that they are seeking a tip of which they have no idea what it may be, but will solve the case for them?

 

[MistyWaters]

Thank you for your response and link. Do you have thoughts then on why the initial sketch released is so detailed and the second released is not? Was it completed by a different agency?

Good point. I don’t recall it ever stated who completed the first sketch but the sketch artist for the 2nd did state he didn’t complete the first in one of the interviews iirc. In my opinion the 1st sketch seemed too detailed as it almost looks like a black and white photo. To recreate a likeness from witnesses memory that sharp and distinct, with or without support of the grainy video, always seemed unusual to me. At one time I wondered if LE had collected security video of this character as well but then why not release the video “we want to talk to this person”. So that can’t be so, must’ve just been an overly detailed-orientated sketch artist IMO.

 

[MistyWaters]

Multiple people involved? I don't know, who does really? LE mentioned it in the vid I recently posted, a couple pages back. Personally I doubt multiple, as it increases the probability of someone talking.

Libby could have lost her shoe running, she could have been dragged along at some point, heck, her shoe could have been thrown by the killer.

I don't even recall LE or any other definitive source stating they in fact crossed the creek for that matter.

This is what I referenced earlier, there is so much we don't know as fact.

I tend to think they were forced down the hill, crossed the creek, and were murdered at the final murder scene, in a very short time period, with the killer heading out either through the cemetery, or in a direction away from the murder scene, assumed creek crossing, and bridge.

Here's a question I've thought of, when LE says they are 'one tip away', that they need 'one tip', do you think they are asking for a specific answer to a specific question?

Or is it that they are seeking a tip of which they have no idea what it may be, but will solve the case for them?

That police are “one tip away” from solving a homicide appears to be standard terminology. When I google the words, the ask is the same for many other unsolved cases too. When police require a tip from the public it generally indicates they’ve exhausted all internal efforts to solve the crime. JMO

A couple of examples -
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/police-one-tip-away-from-catching-holly-s-killer-1.365209

COLD CASE: Patrick Santos' case just one tip away from being solved - 680 NEWS

 

[soylattesandsleuthing]

It seems that they are. Maybe they were wrong, and OBG confirmed his alibi. And I could understand it, and accept, were it not one phrase said by DC on April 2019 conference. Imprecise citation, “we were onto something in the beginning”. So, they were following the right path in 2017...but OBG sketch was released in 2017... now they say the path was wrong and release the sketch of another suspect...but how then could they be right in 2017?... (I’m baffled and confused about the case).

I thought I heard that the second sketch was made shortly after the murders, but never released for whatever reason. Am I wrong about this?

 

[Yemelyan]

Is it common for ISP to not state the cause of death in these kind of cases?

I'm trying to understand why they are holding this back?
Is it to protect the families? I can understand that but would have thought they pretty much know what went on, harrowing though it is?

I think I've also read that they are holding it back to stop the cranks and nutjobs offering false confessions. But surely that's cleaned up with DNA?, which leads me on to think the DNA case they have is very thin. Was the scene too heavily contaminated during the search?

Another theory I had is the 'signature' has the markings of a known serial killer that may have killed many more before this crime.
I say 'known', by that I mean by the FBI and LE and but not the general public. They may be trying to keep a lid on it to prevent national fears and paranoia.

This is an interesting question that I've often thought about myself. The families in this case have absolutely asserted that they do not know the cause of death. If I recall correctly, I think at least one of them has stated that as of right now, they do not want to know. There are other unsolved cases where authorities have stated they want to keep the cause of death a secret that only they and the perp know. The Evansdale murders is an example where LE said exactly this. So my feeling is that when police do this, they plan to use this info as an interrogation tactic and they do not want to risk any details leaking out, including by well-meaning family. If you listen to the Down the Hill podcast, you will hear Mike Patty describe both his trust in LE involved in the case and the promise he extracted from them. The promise clearly had to do with them bringing the killer to justice, but I think what is inferred is that in turn police asked him to be patient as there were details that he was not allowed to know yet.

 

[MistyWaters]

This is an interesting question that I've often thought about myself. The families in this case have absolutely asserted that they do not know the cause of death. If I recall correctly, I think at least one of them has stated that as of right now, they do not want to know. There are other unsolved cases where authorities have stated they want to keep the cause of death a secret that only they and the perp know. The Evansdale murders is an example where LE said exactly this. So my feeling is that when police do this, they plan to use this info as an interrogation tactic and they do not want to risk any details leaking out, including by well-meaning family. If you listen to the Down the Hill podcast, you will hear Mike Patty describe both his trust in LE involved in the case and the promise he extracted from them. The promise clearly had to do with them bringing the killer to justice, but I think what is inferred is that in turn police asked him to be patient as there were details that he was not allowed to know yet.

When the autopsy was sealed by the court, these were the stated reasons -

“4)The details related to the manner and mechanism of the deaths of Ms. Williams and Ms. German, if they remain confidential, make it easier for investigators to recognize a false confession as it is improbable for an innocent person to accurately describe the details of the deaths without personal knowledge. 5) Investigators are able to maintain a tactical advantage when speaking with a suspect if the manner and mechanism of the deaths of Ms. Williams and Ms. German are not made public...”

source - Petition to Seal Autopsy Reports filed
post #7
Found Deceased - IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #47

 

[Yemelyan]

@MistyWaters Thanks for the support that keeping details like this from the family is, in fact, an interrogation/tactical matter (though has nothing to do with the family's guilt or suspicion by LE, if any here were thinking that).

 

[TheVisual]

February 2020

ISP: 'One piece away' from solving Delphi homicides

"...He wants you to remember the two sketches are not photographs.

"I believe that eventually, we are going to be able to say this person's the killer, and there's a combination of those two images that will land on his face, whatever that might look like," Carter explained...."

I find it harder and maddeningly harder to understand why the ISP's website info for the Delphi murders and the FBI's website page both no longer display that first released sketch and yet ISP top officer still references it.

ISP came out on April 24, 2019, days after the 2 year press conference and stated the two sketches were NOT the same man. They also stated the new sketch more accurately represents the man in Libby's video.

Then ISP Carter also says this in that same article Feb 2020 interview..."I can't think of a time in my entire career, or in many other careers, where we have the voice of the person we believe is the killer, a photograph of who we believe is connected to the murder, and even a snip-it of how he moves," said Carter.

I'm seeing a change in description, BBM, in that statement that if thought upon for too long could lead one to believe he's talking about two people. So one person's image and another person's voice? Why not just continue with the phasing..."is the killer" vs. changing it to "who we believe is connected to the murder", a much milder description.

I don't know why but this just bothers me and makes me think there's so much we really don't realize about what happened that day.

ISP Carter also mentions LE, "...will do everything within our power, and within the parameters of law...". "within the parameters of the law".... and then he also repeats, "Somebody knows. Somebody knows."

I unfortunately think LE's hands are tied and they're at a huge impasse. Just some thoughts and I know it's rehashing a bit. AJMO

Yes, why couldn't LE just say " BG is the man who spoke to the girls immediately after Libby took the video and ordered them down the hill". Would that be a problem but wouldn't it let us know that BG IS their killer without compromising the case?

 

[MistyWaters]

@MistyWaters Thanks for the support that keeping details like this from the family is, in fact, an interrogation/tactical matter (though has nothing to do with the family's guilt or suspicion by LE, if any here were thinking that).

You’re welcome. I agree, if withholding the cause of death assists LE, I’m certain the family would certainly support that.

 

[UnderWhelmed405]

So....the girls were out of school (extra snow day) on a random Monday & this guy just happened to be there too? Does BG not work? Was he on a lunch break? Makes the targeted theory a little dicey unless he was privy to this school schedule.

 

[TheVisual]

RL left his property that day to drive to the dump. Did he encounter a visitor that day? One of his son’s or grandson’s friends who were familiar with the property and knew he would be gone for a certain timeframe? I wish we knew if LE considered or even questioned any of those friends. Maybe even someone with an axe to grind but more likely just an opportunist.
Also we have no way of knowing whether the girls were murdered there or somewhere close by nor do we know if they were taken and returned since the bodies weren’t found until the previous day. i cannot wrap my head and heart around someone randomly abducting and or murdering two girls without knowledge of the terrain and the fact that the property they were found on belongs to someone with an alibi who served time for a ridiculously stupid reason. I wonder if someone meant to set up RL or took advantage of his absence that day to suit their needs.

Could RL have been the one to give LE the second sketch a few days after the murders? He is old but when pressed remembered seeing the younger version out on his road. (not that that younger man was necessarily BG but a stranger to him).

 

[MistyWaters]

Yes, why couldn't LE just say " BG is the man who spoke to the girls immediately after Libby took the video and ordered them down the hill". Would that be a problem but wouldn't it let us know that BG IS their killer without compromising the case?

That’s very common police lingo. Until charges are laid, a trial is held and a conviction occurs what police “believe” occurred is not a proven fact.

Early on it was asked the man photoed on the bridge voluntarily come forward as he was a person of interest who might have information relating to the murders. Because he didn’t, his status changed to suspect.

There’s always a very remote possibility the man on the bridge who was videoed and recorded by Libby is eventually arrested, yet denies having any involvement or knowledge of the murders whatsoever (after a walk on the trail he’d immediately returned home to Planet Mars). Until such time as he’s convicted, he’s not legally guilty. Meanwhile LE are careful to wordsmith because they have to.

JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

More about releasing additional information, maybe of interest to those who just began following the case -

BBM

Why Police Have Not Released Details on the Murders of Libby German and Abby Williams from Delphi, Indiana
“When asked why police have held back these details on such a high-profile case, Indiana State Police First Sgt. Jerry Holeman tells A&E Real Crime that it is standard protocol for his officers to keep mum on those issues during ongoing investigations.

“Speaking on behalf of state police, we don’t ever release information about ongoing investigations,” Holeman says. “In this case, we gave out audio and photo evidence from [German’s] video to help locate [the perpetrator]. We do that so when we get key evidence, only the killer or killers know the cause of death. We don’t release it to the media because then everyone and their brother would know, and it’s common to get false confessions from mentally disturbed people. So we’re trying to keep the details close to our vests.”.....

......We get 10 to 12 tips daily and sometimes more, depending on what the media or social media is putting out there. But a lot of those are false tips,” he says. “We are continuing to use all the resources available to find the person or persons responsible for this heinous crime.”....”

 

[Davemac1]

This is an interesting question that I've often thought about myself. The families in this case have absolutely asserted that they do not know the cause of death. If I recall correctly, I think at least one of them has stated that as of right now, they do not want to know. There are other unsolved cases where authorities have stated they want to keep the cause of death a secret that only they and the perp know. The Evansdale murders is an example where LE said exactly this. So my feeling is that when police do this, they plan to use this info as an interrogation tactic and they do not want to risk any details leaking out, including by well-meaning family. If you listen to the Down the Hill podcast, you will hear Mike Patty describe both his trust in LE involved in the case and the promise he extracted from them. The promise clearly had to do with them bringing the killer to justice, but I think what is inferred is that in turn police asked him to be patient as there were details that he was not allowed to know yet.

The families faith in LE must be dwindling on a daily basis.
I listened earlier to Doug Carter at the 2019 press conference where LE stated they were going to release ground breaking new evidence and a change of direction.
Carter: "The information being released today is the result of literally thousands and thousands of hours of extraordinary investigative efforts by Delphi, Carol county the FBI and ISP."

He then proceeded to release a sketch that was drawn up a couple of days after the incident and some audio and video that were obtained the day after! Hardly the months of hard graft Carter described.
The car info was new but details were so vague they bordered on unhelpful.
It's quite clear to me they have very little on this perpetrator.

I'm increasingly of the belief that Doug carter thinks the Guy is so engulfed with guilt that he can't sleep at night and will let slip to someone what evil he has committed?
I believe the complete opposite.

That this guy is a sick individual that gets off on the fact he killed two little girls and can't wait to do it again. He's losing no sleep over it whatsoever and has told nobody.

The police need to come clean with what they know before he does in fact do it again.

 

[Charlot123]

I thought I heard that the second sketch was made shortly after the murders, but never released for whatever reason. Am I wrong about this?

I don’t know any longer. So I heard, but I can’t “copy” any information that is coming from LE.

I feel sorry for LE, they are not operating in easy conditions. But with the case being so loaded with details, so sensationalized (how many podcasts? Shows?) , but also, so disorganized, I am past being even surprised, and I can’t process what they say because it is totally illogical and changes more drastically than the weather in Indiana.

I don’t rely on the sketches.

What we have are two sources, the video and four words that the guy said, these are the messages the victims sent to the LE in he hope their murderer will be apprehended.

Just do it, LE. If you think it is all local, and the public can not help, why appear in so many podcasts and shows? And if we can help, why so little information?

 

[Yemelyan]

The families faith in LE must be dwindling on a daily basis.
I listened earlier to Doug Carter at the 2019 press conference where LE stated they were going to release ground breaking new evidence and a change of direction.
Carter: "The information being released today is the result of literally thousands and thousands of hours of extraordinary investigative efforts by Delphi, Carol county the FBI and ISP."

He then proceeded to release a sketch that was drawn up a couple of days after the incident and some audio and video that were obtained the day after! Hardly the months of hard graft Carter described.
The car info was new but details were so vague they bordered on unhelpful.
It's quite clear to me they have very little on this perpetrator.

I'm increasingly of the belief that Doug carter thinks the Guy is so engulfed with guilt that he can't sleep at night and will let slip to someone what evil he has committed?
I believe the complete opposite.

That this guy is a sick individual that gets off on the fact he killed two little girls and can't wait to do it again. He's losing no sleep over it whatsoever and has told nobody.

The police need to come clean with what they know before he does in fact do it again.

I agree with you completely on the fact that the killer gets off on this.

IMO the police think that there's nothing more they can share publically about the crime that will trigger the tip they need. They feel that what they've said so far should be enough to get the info they want. Putting together what Ives said about the crime scene being odd and displaying signatures, my conclusion is that there are very disturbing aspects of the crime. Going along with what you said about the killer being a sick individual, IMO they don't want to give him the satisfaction of having it be widely known to the public exactly what he did at that scene. And they want to use that info tactically.

Having said that, what they are doing is definitely a gamble. By preserving bits of info only the killer would know, they can weed out good tips from bad and catch potential POIs in lies. But then you look at a case like April Tinsley where police concealed for many years that a distinctive type of sex toy was found with her body. And you wonder if that had been known to the public, disturbing and disrespectful to her family as it might have been, would that have generated the tip that solved the case earlier? Or were police confident in their ability to investigate all avenues regarding that item of evidence and thought the benefit to secreting it more valuable than putting the information out?

With regard to LE releasing more info: when LE do these press conferences and interviews, you have to keep in mind they are not asking the wider public (us for instance) to gather up all the clues and solve the crime for them by providing some tip or idea they haven't thought of. They are reaching out to a specific person who already has the knowledge of who did this. They just need that person to recognize that they hold the key.

 

[sunshineray]

Multiple people involved? I don't know, who does really? LE mentioned it in the vid I recently posted, a couple pages back. Personally I doubt multiple, as it increases the probability of someone talking.

Libby could have lost her shoe running, she could have been dragged along at some point, heck, her shoe could have been thrown by the killer.

I don't even recall LE or any other definitive source stating they in fact crossed the creek for that matter.

This is what I referenced earlier, there is so much we don't know as fact.

I tend to think they were forced down the hill, crossed the creek, and were murdered at the final murder scene, in a very short time period, with the killer heading out either through the cemetery, or in a direction away from the murder scene, assumed creek crossing, and bridge.

Here's a question I've thought of, when LE says they are 'one tip away', that they need 'one tip', do you think they are asking for a specific answer to a specific question?

Or is it that they are seeking a tip of which they have no idea what it may be, but will solve the case for them?

I agree that the senario you mention is most likely how it all occured. As far as the one tip required to arrest, I tend to think it may have something to do with an alibi. So the tip could destroy an alibi. Maybe it's a family member of BG that LE is sure is lying? Other than that I really don't know what besides the collected crime scene evidence would be the one thing. Maybe something to do with a vehicle?