Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #122

[tresir2012]

In this recent (April 29,2020) article, Leazenby says they go back and forth on whether one or more were responsible for the deaths.

“It has not been determined if it was one or more perpetrators.”

Lots of tips, no arrest in 2017 double homicide | Carroll County Comet

Wouldn't the recording give them a clue as to how many participated?

 

[Jabarn]

Wouldn't the recording give them a clue as to how many participated?

I would think so but possibly it’s so garbled it’s impossible to make out all the words. I also wonder of BG used a ruse instead of a weapon to get them down the hill, like pretending to be an authority of some sort (I think that was brought up a few threads ago). Maybe he used both a weapon and a ruse.

 

[stattlich1]

Wouldn't the recording give them a clue as to how many participated?

It's my belief that there is more than one perp involved. The second perp could have been in a location other than where the recording took place.

From the wording of the vid I posted, there could even be more involved, DC used the word 'group'.

So, maybe there was one perp, maybe two or more. I'm of the opinion there are two or more. BG directs them down the hill, they do what they're told, they then run in to second perp, causing the ease of controlling the girls to increase exponentially.

All speculation of course, but makes sense to me.

I don't think these murders were random. I think these girls were killed for a reason. By someone who had/has something to hide, and a lot of reputation to lose.

 

[tresir2012]

I could see it. As the generations have progressed within my family I've long noted how some youngsters are immediately in tune with direction and distance, while others not at all. It is seemingly not related to intelligence. I think lots of kids just jump into the back of a car and inherit a ride...wherever it is going...and then step right out with no ability to recreate or describe the route they just took. That tendency is even more pronounced and logical in this era with the phone face tendencies from an early age.

Besides, the reference points are not obvious or logical on that trail and especially on the bridge itself. Tree cover everywhere. Tons of weaving angles -- like the creek itself -- instead of square to square. Very isolated. Nothing in the background. It's not as if you are crossing the bridge with a huge landmark in the background to gauge exactly where you are.

Basically it's enter and exit, whether it's the Freedom Bridge area or the Mears lot. I think lots of Delphi adults would struggle to pinpoint where they were, if asked to point to something -- like the Carroll County Courthouse -- from the end of that bridge.

However, if Abby and Libby had dashed into those yards beyond the bridge I think they would have quickly figured it out. They would recognize the homes and yards based on often seeing from the other side along the road. It would be a case of, "Hey, I know where we are."

Then they either call Derrick and change the pickup point, or call if off completely and giggle all the way to Abby's home.

Here's a link to a post in thread 107 that explains how familiar she was with the area.

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #107

 

[Yemelyan]

I sort feel the same way except I wouldn't say I don't trust him. I believe his approach to a murder would work with 99% of the murders one would expect in his jurisdiction. However, this isn't your typical Carroll County crime. And trying to overlay your typical local crime procedure onto this case isn't going to work. By the time he realized he was over his head it was too late. Yes, I know he called in ISP and FBI, but how long did his staff muddle around with this crime scene just like they would with any other Carroll County crime? For so long I believe they thought this crime was going to be solved within a a couple of weeks using the usual techniques going after the usual suspects.

Maybe we are saying the same thing, just a different way.

He does seem overly simplistic in his approach but luckily Tobe Leazenby isn't in charge of how the investigation is or has been run. He was apparently in charge of making the decision to not continue searching overnight, but the ISP, specifically Detective Jerry Holeman, have the lead role in investigating this case and were introduced as such way back at the very first press conference. From comments in the Down the Hill podcast, it seems that as soon as the girls were found, this decision was made. We don't hear a ton from Detective Holeman but he's been working the case as case manager from the very first day. So the answer to "how long did the Carroll County Sheriff Department have control of the crime scene?" Is: not very much time if any at all.

This article has some info about Holeman and his opinions of the investigation in the early stages.
Lead detective in Delphi murders confirms police have more audio from phone, DNA evidence

 

[soylattesandsleuthing]

I hesitate to say this but are LE positive BG is the killer? What if he just walked on and the girls recorded someone else's voice and the ensuing crime? Why can't they be more detailed about what they have on the recording and how long it is? Why can't they show more video or audio?

I have thought the same thing. My guess is that he is in more of the video, though I’m a bit confused about how much more video there is. I’ve heard it said that there’s more audio than video, so my guess is that Libby either put the phone in her pocket or held it at her side. If she held it at her side, it’s possible the video features the lower part of his body, and based on his clothing LE knows it’s the same guy. If she put it in her pocket, it’s possible based on what the girls were saying they know it’s BG. I’m imagining something like, “He’s coming over here” or something else that kind of narrates what’s happening as he approaches. Other than that, I’ve got nothing. I can’t comprehend why they aren’t releasing more after three years, even if it’s just another short clip. I have no doubt that someone knows who this guy is, but seeing as they aren’t coming forward, releasing more might make recognition click for someone else.

 

[MistyWaters]

Are you from that area? I wondered, because since you know the population, do you know if the people all pretty much know everyone else and the town area is all within walking distance or if it's more spread out?

No I’m not from that area. However early on there were several people who claimed to be more or less local who posted on these threads and described it that way. Also one of the police officers, I don’t recall which one, also mentioned it as a community where everyone knows each other, children go to school together, families go to church together. I realize that’s a bit of an over generalization but it portrays the dynamics of similar size communities everywhere.

One thing that surprised me is the magnitude of the Delphi Historic Trail System, reportedly a total distance of 10 miles. There’s a map on this link.
A 360 tour of the Monon High Bridge

 

[MistyWaters]

I don't trust Tobe Leazenby. I think he's overly simplistic local cop and that causes him not to be able to see more than 3 blocks in any direction from his office. He's convinced the killer has to be local, and using the strictest definition of local. Since he can't figure it out after 3 years he allows himself to fall into traps like rationalizing it might be multiple perpetrators.

The recent local article indicated that they have conducted polygraphs. Yikes. We've gone from hopes of CeCe Moore deciphering a genealogical family tree to the reality of Tobe Leazenby dishing out polygraphs to a selection of local creeps. I can just picture Leazenby with a few polygraph results he's not fully satisfied with, and using that sample to debate toward the killer.

I hope the FBI and others step in to make sure that if there is an arrest in this case it is consensus driven and evidence driven, instead of Tobe Leazenby relying on his gut and his faith and his impatience.

Often times when police provide media briefings and are asked questions, etc they will state something to the effect of “we deal only with the facts, not speculation” and refuse to answer.

But in this case I will say I’m sometimes alarmed at how various policing positions appear to thrive on offering vague or opinion-based comments leading to speculation and then follows the impression they must know something they’re not saying. It causes me to wonder if key figures have elevated themselves to celebrity status in their minds where there’s always the risk that media and public attention and followers taking precedence over solving this murder.

Whether or not that’s been a hindrance to solving this case, I don’t know but I do think it can be counter-productive. Is the enormous volume of 50,000 tips a good thing, considering more than 3 years have passed without any charges being laid? I’d be very curious to know what percentage of tips are from total strangers who have no connection to Delphi nor the person they’re sending in a tip on but I bet it’s very high. Sometimes I get the impression this unsolved murder of two innocent teens is verging toward becoming very similar to a virtual reality show for some.

JMO

 

[IceIce9]

Are you from that area? I wondered, because since you know the population, do you know if the people all pretty much know everyone else and the town area is all within walking distance or if it's more spread out?

Early on in the case quite a few news reports mentioned that Delphi was a small town with a population of approximately 3000. Some reports said less than 3000. And it is easy to google population of any city or town.

 

[pearl]

I just think Delphi LE is like small LE in places all over the United States limited in manpower and resources. They knew immediately that local LE did not have the needed personnel and resources to work a crime of the magnitude of the girls' murder. They did what they should have done and called in LE that could handle, for lack of a better word, the type of investgation needed. Delphi LE is not directing this investigation. I do not mean they are shut out as they help. Tobe Leazenby's office is the local "faces" of the investigation. They live in or near Delphi and know the families, etc. They are also privy to the information LE knows and have helped gather it. Some local LE are talkative and others not. Leazenby talks but does not cross the line to provide info that would compromise the investigation. There is something about these murders that has greatly affected LE involved in investigation. Tobe works daily in Delphi. He sees family members and friends whenever he leaves his office. He probably even encounters the perp as I think they know who it is. He also lives with the knowledge that this psycho is in the midst of his people. It weighs heavy on his mind.

 

[Charlot123]

Wouldn't the recording give them a clue as to how many participated?

Not necessarily. It all depends on when the recording stopped. Sadly, it might have stopped when the call came. My own opinion, I don’t quite subscribe to the official version of the death, but I think that maybe Libby, the stronger one, was killed first as most of the anger was towards her. I don’t quite understand the sequence of events, but that the girls could be lured into a car under the simplest pretext and taken away from the bridge is also possible. MOO.


Remembering Jake Patterson. If he could drive a car with JC past the police and none the wiser, something could have always happened here. If the police did not suspect foul play at that time, the girls could have been brought to the creek virtually under the cops’ noses. Not criticizing the police, no one thought abduction and murder on Feb 13, it seems.

 

[stattlich1]

Not necessarily. It all depends on when the recording stopped. Sadly, it might have stopped when the call came. My own opinion, I don’t quite subscribe to the official version of the death, but I think that maybe Libby, the stronger one, was killed first as most of the anger was towards her. I don’t quite understand the sequence of events, but that the girls could be lured into a car under the simplest pretext and taken away from the bridge is also possible. MOO.


Remembering Jake Patterson. If he could drive a car with JC past the police and none the wiser, something could have always happened here. If the police did not suspect foul play at that time, the girls could have been brought to the creek virtually under the cops’ noses. Not criticizing the police, no one thought abduction and murder on Feb 13, it seems.

I've considered this possibility, 'down the hill' leads to the driveway, and if a car was there, they'd be out of there in less than a minute. But then there would be the issue of how did they get the girls bodies, or the girls themselves prior to the murder, to the site where they were found?

Even the thought of such a possible scenario is evidence that we know so little. LE knows if the girls actually crossed that creek that day, and I strongly suspect that they did. I doubt the girls left that area in a car that day.

MOO

 

[Blue Amethyst]

I've considered this possibility, 'down the hill' leads to the driveway, and if a car was there, they'd be out of there in less than a minute. But then there would be the issue of how did they get the girls bodies, or the girls themselves prior to the murder, to the site where they were found?

Even the thought of such a possible scenario is evidence that we know so little. LE knows if the girls actually crossed that creek that day, and I strongly suspect that they did. I doubt the girls left that area in a car that day.

MOO

It is my opinion and I agree that the girls crossed the creek that day.

If he took them in a vehicle, why would he bother to bring them back? He could have left them anywhere.

I don’t think he could come back and park under the bridge because by then people were searching that area and under the bridge in case they had fallen off.

So if he came from the other direction, he would have to park at the cemetery or near RL's land and walked down to the crime scene. He would take a big chance of being seen by the cemetery but could he have snuck through RL's property in the dark? I don’t think he could make two trips and carry the girls.

Didn’t RL say the LE had set up their command post at the cemetery?

To me it is like robbing a store and going back for the one thing you still wanted and walking right into the midst of the LE. But he still may have returned for the search because he knew exactly where the girls were.

 

[wdmcmahan]

I'm sure this has been discussed in the past, but I either don't remember or I missed it...

Did either of the girls have a gaming console such as a Playstation or an Xbox?

When my older kids were young teens, they used gaming consoles online and played games/ chatted with their friends.

Could one of the girls (or both) have been catfished by someone pretending to be a kid through a gaming console?

 

[soylattesandsleuthing]

Often times when police provide media briefings and are asked questions, etc they will state something to the effect of “we deal only with the facts, not speculation” and refuse to answer.

But in this case I will say I’m sometimes alarmed at how various policing positions appear to thrive on offering vague or opinion-based comments leading to speculation and then follows the impression they must know something they’re not saying. It causes me to wonder if key figures have elevated themselves to celebrity status in their minds where there’s always the risk that media and public attention and followers taking precedence over solving this murder.

Whether or not that’s been a hindrance to solving this case, I don’t know but I do think it can be counter-productive. Is the enormous volume of 50,000 tips a good thing, considering more than 3 years have passed without any charges being laid? I’d be very curious to know what percentage of tips are from total strangers who have no connection to Delphi nor the person they’re sending in a tip on but I bet it’s very high. Sometimes I get the impression this unsolved murder of two innocent teens is verging toward becoming very similar to a virtual reality show for some.

JMO

I completely agree. I think there is something about this case that appeals to people who normally wouldn’t be interested in true crime. I’ve seen it in social media groups—it’s almost like they forget this is an actual murder that happened to actual people, and instead it becomes some kind of macabre hobby that more often than not borders on obsession. They take it upon themselves to dig into people’s histories, openly pointing fingers without any justification other than “_____ looks kind of like BG” and then spend an unhealthy amount of time trying to convince others why their chosen POI MUST have done it. I’m positive they make up a large majority of the people running to the tip line for every little thing, as this is often encouraged in these groups.
That being said, I think there’s a certain sensational and dramatic quality to the case that appeals to some in the way a psychological thriller would. I’m not saying this is okay, but I do think the narrative around this case was unintentionally set up from the very beginning to look this way.

 

[kkdj]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed>

I think the recording caught the whole thing. I wonder what all words were spoken between the three of them.
LE knows quite a bit more than we do, and yet they haven't been able to arrest BG. Strange.

 

[tresir2012]

I think the recording caught the whole thing. I wonder what all words were spoken between the three of them.
LE knows quite a bit more than we do, and yet they haven't been able to arrest BG. Strange.

I thought when Leazenby was asked if the murders were on the recording he said no. I'll try and find it.

I think it might have been an interview, haven't found it yet but this is a link I had not seen before at all.

'I'm absolutely hopeful.' On anniversary of Delphi killings, community has faith next tip leads to justice

 

[kkdj]

I thought when Leazenby was asked if the murders were on the recording he said no. I'll try and find it.

Oh really? I hadn't heard that. At least not that I remember.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I thought when Leazenby was asked if the murders were on the recording he said no. I'll try and find it.

I think it might have been an interview, haven't found it yet but this is a link I had not seen before at all.

'I'm absolutely hopeful.' On anniversary of Delphi killings, community has faith next tip leads to justice

IIRC, LE inferred the opposite; that The totality of the audio was longer and disturbing. I don’t need to know more than that.

I truly pray for the LE working on this case. I’m sure, despite their training, it is very traumatizing.

amateur opinion and speculation

 

[tresir2012]

Oh really? I hadn't heard that. At least not that I remember.

I found it. Leazenby states the attack is not on the recording in this interview with James Renner.