Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #123

[Charlot123]

I did not notice this before. Who is the man standing there. It looks like the heart was burnt into the ground.

Or dug in the ground. It could have been done before the murders. Or after. It might have been not meant to be seen from the ground, or the bridge. We don’t know if it is a signature.

But these are “patterns”. Heart on the beach - heart in the grass - St. Valentine’s.

 

[Yemelyan]

View attachment 252328

Looks like a natural depression in the riverbank to me. JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

Are we to understand that it is the fault of these 24,000 or 30,000 members that the case has not been solved?

That would be a question for LE, I merely cut and pasted the media report. And it doesn’t say it was the fault, but it does say it could slow the case and even could harm the case.

I’m not a member of any of those groups so I don’t know the inner-workings but I do recall somebody posting here who was frustrated over something that resembled a sort of group-tipping, giving the impression the mindset was similar to an online petition where more is better. But I don’t know this for a fact and hopefully mega duplication is not the reason for the 50,000 tips.

 

[Yemelyan]

At first blush I took Ives' statements on the podcast as carrying some weight. I no longer do, and it was something Ives brought up that made me put less weight on his words, and I think others here have brought it up.

Prosecutors here in Indiana do not lead investigations. LE leads them. At this point I don't know how to take Ives' statements about the investigation, we really don't know what he's been privy to with regards to evidence.

JMO

Ives said he saw the crime scene, and he saw the entire video, so that's more than anyone else has seen who is willing to talk. He did say at one point "I'm not an expert on serial killers," which I thought was.... interesting. He admitted that in his career he normally sees murder scenes that are acts of domestic violence, etc. But we know child abduction murders are so rare that most jurisdictions the size of Carroll County won't deal with one very often if at all. So in that light, the crime scene was odd to him. I can take that at face value.

 

[MistyWaters]

I did not notice this before. Who is the man standing there. It looks like the heart was burnt into the ground.

I’m not seeing a burnt area. It looks to me as the sandy soil has eroded away from under the grassy groundcover, causing a shadow. The erosion continues beyond the left and right of the photo as well. It appears to be a dry creek bed which carries water during heavy rains or during spring runoff.

 

[Yemelyan]

Per the caption, the gentleman standing there is a Delphi Police detective.

I think the caption might be wrong, I believe this is Detective Tony Liggett, he actually works for the Carroll County Sheriff's Department, not the City of Delphi.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Ives said he saw the crime scene, and he saw the entire video, so that's more than anyone else has seen who is willing to talk. He did say at one point "I'm not an expert on serial killers," which I thought was.... interesting. He admitted that in his career he normally sees murder scenes that are acts of domestic violence, etc. But we know child abduction murders are so rare that most jurisdictions the size of Carroll County won't deal with one very often if at all. So in that light, the crime scene was odd to him. I can take that at face value.

The serial killer remark was very interesting indeed. Perhaps he defined “serial” because two children were murdered, but more likely his inner monologue slipped out revealing he suspected a tie to the Evansdale case, as I have long believed is definitely the case.

amateur opinion and speculation

 

[JDough]

Thank you @JDough

Supposedly ISP worked with GBI and various FBI Field Offices. Do we know which field offices?

Sorry for the late reply- I'm a little behind.

I am not certain if every field office working on the case has been identified publicly? I do know (according to news reports), that local LE asked for GBI and agents from "other FBI field offices" to review the case in January/February 2018. (Sorry I don't have a better answer- I'll take a peek and see if I can find additional information).

Here's one of the earlier articles addressing this:

[...] Delphi investigators have asked the Georgia Bureau of Investigations and agents from other FBI field offices to look over the case with a fresh set of eyes in and offer recommendations in the hopes of finding the missing puzzle piece that will help them solve the crimes. [...]

Indiana State Police say they have worked with a number of agencies across the country as they track down leads from the thousands of tips they have received. [...] More at link.

Georgia investigators, FBI review Delphi case

 

[EmmaRose]

Dbm

 

[Yemelyan]

The serial killer remark was very interesting indeed. Perhaps he defined “serial” because two children were murdered, but more likely his inner monologue slipped out revealing he suspected a tie to the Evansdale case, as I have long believed is definitely the case.

amateur opinion and speculation

I think it was his inner monologue too. He had just been asked, "we know you can't discuss the specific signatures in this case, but can you compare it to other well-known murders, is it similar to any others that are widely known?" (Paraphrasing.) His mind immediately went to "serial killer" when he was asked to compare the Delphi crime scene to others.

I have read that child abduction murderers, even if they do it only once and are not "serial," are more similar to serial killers in motivation, use of bindings, and other behaviors, than they are to "regular" killers. So it makes sense in a way why his mind went there.

 

[sunshineray]

From the beginning of this case, even when only the photo was initially circulated for the first few months and then later came the release of the first sketch, several times LE has sternly requested SM to cease and desist making online allegations.

So if the suspect in sketch #2 was known to LE at the time of the PC last year, do you really think it’s logical LE would’ve willingly facilitated yet other round of online feeding frenzy, plus accumulate another immense volume of useless tips? To have done so reeks of utter investigative incompetence, if it was anything but a genuine ask for tips from somebody who is able to assist LE in identifying the suspect IMO.

That many people in these large online groups seem to believe LE is providing clues to reveal the identity of the killer of Abby and Libby, as if their real life murders have become some sort of virtual guessing game, leaves me with a feeling of great sadness for the families of the girls and the investigators actively involved as well.

BBM

Police warn online sleuthing could hamper investigation into Delphi murders
“But one area that could hurt their investigation are online web sleuths who attach names and faces to online gossip attempting to solve the Delphi murders. Police warn that this practice could slow the case and put the public at risk.

Some online groups have upwards of 20,000 members, and accusations within the groups run rampant. Police stress, the bottom line is, if you have a tip, send it to the tip line.

“When you have people who are trying to solve this case with unorthodox methods, it could not only be detrimental to innocent people, but it could harm the case as well,” said Indiana State Police Sgt. John Perrine......

.......On social media, accusations fly, including names, pictures and where people work or go to school.

“There are some issues with defamation of character,” Perrine cautioned.

One Delphi group on Facebook has 24,000 members; another on Reddit has 30,000. Countless smaller groups exist boasting thousands of members each....”

I agree, only LE knows for sure if there are any viable suspects considering LE alone knows the exact facts of the crime scene.

 

[Charlot123]

Simple question.

How often the “handiwork” of serial killers is found the next day? Is it even typical?

And also: how easy is it for a really smart person to “pretend” he is a SK?

 

[Blueberry2720]

Haven't posted for awhile, but have been reading and keeping up with the threads.
I have 2 comments tonight which I hope someone could help with:

1.) I recently watched a video with a man who specializes in human gaits. He was shown the clip of BG's few steps on the bridge and immediately said he (BG) has drop foot on his left. I recall when the clip was first release "way back when" that Charlot123 said the exact same thing. I was fascinated by this man's analysis of BG's gait, but I can't for the life of me find where I watched this. I thought it was a link in a Reddit thread, so back tracked through there but came up empty handed. In the mean time, I found another video on YouTube with another guy analyzing BG's gait. This was even more interesting than the first one. I will link it if anyone is interested. But, that 1st video is bugging me - if anyone saw it and can point me back to it I'd be forever grateful!

2.) First off, I want to state that I DO WANT TO BEAT A HORSE TO DEATH AND GO WASTE HOWEVER MANY MORE THREADS DISCUSSING THE MEANING AND USE OF THE WORD "GUYS" (as in DTH) IN VARIOUS PARTS OF THE COUNTRY.
However, while listening to that clip for the umpteenth time last night, I heard something I had not heard before and am wondering if it may have any significance. What I assume we have all heard is "GIZE" like "EYES". By listening very carefully last night in a particular clip, what I heard over and over was "GICE" just like "ICE". BG's pronunciation of the "S" was soft "S" or "C", and NOT a hard "Z". It was almost as though he had a slight lisp. Perhaps it was a clip that had been more cleaned up than others, I don't know. Wondering if I have gone around the bend to crazy land or has anyone else picked up on this?????

 

[rosesfromangels]

Simple question.

How often the “handiwork” of serial killers is found the next day? Is it even typical?

And also: how easy is it for a really smart person to “pretend” he is a SK?

I think this depends on their “signature” and whether they intended for the children to be quickly found in some macabre poses. (Which I think is likely). I don’t think he pretended anything, I believe everything was intentional.

amateur opinion and speculation

 

[somequestions]

I'm sorry, as you can probably tell, I'm going through a bit of a rough time with this case. It's heartbreaking, agravating and my feelings about it all are on edge lately, not very objective.

Apologies from my heart to any who are really on the front lines with this. My prayers are always with you, thinking of Abby and Libby.

It is kind of sad how much time has passed in a case that looked like it would be solved so easily at the beginning. June 23rd was Abigail Williams birthday. She would have been 17.

 

[Charlot123]

I think this depends on their “signature” and whether they intended for the children to be quickly found in some macabre poses. (Which I think is likely). I don’t think he pretended anything, I believe everything was intentional.

amateur opinion and speculation

Thank you, @rosesfromangels.

If true, this speaks against the Evansdale murders and the Delphi case being the work of the same killer.

 

[Yemelyan]

Simple question.

How often the “handiwork” of serial killers is found the next day? Is it even typical?

And also: how easy is it for a really smart person to “pretend” he is a SK?

No idea on your second question.

As for your first question, a study of 733 child abduction murders found that about 80% were found within 24 hours, if I recall correctly. That's children under 18 though, who were abducted before being killed by non-familial perpetrators. This study did include cases of child abduction murders by serial offenders. I'm not aware of data like this for serial killers of adults.

The Evansville case is a bit of an outlier, both in the time it took to find the bodies and the location of the bodies relative to the abduction site. Normally kids of the age the Evansville victims were are found much closer to the place where they first contacted the offender, according to the study.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Haven't posted for awhile, but have been reading and keeping up with the threads.
I have 2 comments tonight which I hope someone could help with:

1.) I recently watched a video with a man who specializes in human gaits. He was shown the clip of BG's few steps on the bridge and immediately said he (BG) has drop foot on his left. I recall when the clip was first release "way back when" that Charlot123 said the exact same thing. I was fascinated by this man's analysis of BG's gait, but I can't for the life of me find where I watched this. I thought it was a link in a Reddit thread, so back tracked through there but came up empty handed. In the mean time, I found another video on YouTube with another guy analyzing BG's gait. This was even more interesting than the first one. I will link it if anyone is interested. But, that 1st video is bugging me - if anyone saw it and can point me back to it I'd be forever grateful!

2.) First off, I want to state that I DO WANT TO BEAT A HORSE TO DEATH AND GO WASTE HOWEVER MANY MORE THREADS DISCUSSING THE MEANING AND USE OF THE WORD "GUYS" (as in DTH) IN VARIOUS PARTS OF THE COUNTRY.
However, while listening to that clip for the umpteenth time last night, I heard something I had not heard before and am wondering if it may have any significance. What I assume we have all heard is "GIZE" like "EYES". By listening very carefully last night in a particular clip, what I heard over and over was "GICE" just like "ICE". BG's pronunciation of the "S" was soft "S" or "C", and NOT a hard "Z". It was almost as though he had a slight lisp. Perhaps it was a clip that had been more cleaned up than others, I don't know. Wondering if I have gone around the bend to crazy land or has anyone else picked up on this?????

I always thought he said “GICE” too.

 

[Charlot123]

Haven't posted for awhile, but have been reading and keeping up with the threads.
I have 2 comments tonight which I hope someone could help with:

1.) I recently watched a video with a man who specializes in human gaits. He was shown the clip of BG's few steps on the bridge and immediately said he (BG) has drop foot on his left. I recall when the clip was first release "way back when" that Charlot123 said the exact same thing. I was fascinated by this man's analysis of BG's gait, but I can't for the life of me find where I watched this. I thought it was a link in a Reddit thread, so back tracked through there but came up empty handed. In the mean time, I found another video on YouTube with another guy analyzing BG's gait. This was even more interesting than the first one. I will link it if anyone is interested. But, that 1st video is bugging me - if anyone saw it and can point me back to it I'd be forever grateful!

2.) First off, I want to state that I DO WANT TO BEAT A HORSE TO DEATH AND GO WASTE HOWEVER MANY MORE THREADS DISCUSSING THE MEANING AND USE OF THE WORD "GUYS" (as in DTH) IN VARIOUS PARTS OF THE COUNTRY.
However, while listening to that clip for the umpteenth time last night, I heard something I had not heard before and am wondering if it may have any significance. What I assume we have all heard is "GIZE" like "EYES". By listening very carefully last night in a particular clip, what I heard over and over was "GICE" just like "ICE". BG's pronunciation of the "S" was soft "S" or "C", and NOT a hard "Z". It was almost as though he had a slight lisp. Perhaps it was a clip that had been more cleaned up than others, I don't know. Wondering if I have gone around the bend to crazy land or has anyone else picked up on this?????

1) I was positive it was the steppage, or neuropathic gait, but then DC said “condition of the bridge”. No, I never saw a man explaining the gait of BG, but there are two Youtube videos I would advise to see.

One is “neuropathic gait” (just search)

The other one can be found under “slap gait, steppage gait”. I never realized that one could “hear” this gait, it is “slapping”. Also, this video explains some reasons for the gait. Maybe it could refresh someone’s memory.

Also: Looking at the video, I recently started
wondering about R elbow of BG. One wonders if the strange position of his R elbow (some tended to explain it by BG holding a gun) is, in fact, slightly forced and stiff.

I think that BG has, or might have had, one of the conditions affecting his R elbow joint, and it caused either ankylosis (certain degree of fusion of the bones), or at least some stiffness in the area.

Am I the only one seeing it?

Anyhow, it brings me back to BG being older.

2) if it is a lisp and not an accent, then, BG could have an open bite that is always difficult to correct. But I would not exclude a prior accent that now manifests only in softer consonants.

ETA: looked up. Yes, for a lisp, most likely, the person has to have either open bite or overbite. Problems are with:
“fricative consonant sounds like “t” “s” or “ch” which require tongue-to-tooth contact. “ (do we have speech pathologists here?)

 

[Andreee]

Haven't posted for awhile, but have been reading and keeping up with the threads.
I have 2 comments tonight which I hope someone could help with:

1.) I recently watched a video with a man who specializes in human gaits. He was shown the clip of BG's few steps on the bridge and immediately said he (BG) has drop foot on his left. I recall when the clip was first release "way back when" that Charlot123 said the exact same thing. I was fascinated by this man's analysis of BG's gait, but I can't for the life of me find where I watched this. I thought it was a link in a Reddit thread, so back tracked through there but came up empty handed. In the mean time, I found another video on YouTube with another guy analyzing BG's gait. This was even more interesting than the first one. I will link it if anyone is interested. But, that 1st video is bugging me - if anyone saw it and can point me back to it I'd be forever grateful!

2.) First off, I want to state that I DO WANT TO BEAT A HORSE TO DEATH AND GO WASTE HOWEVER MANY MORE THREADS DISCUSSING THE MEANING AND USE OF THE WORD "GUYS" (as in DTH) IN VARIOUS PARTS OF THE COUNTRY.
However, while listening to that clip for the umpteenth time last night, I heard something I had not heard before and am wondering if it may have any significance. What I assume we have all heard is "GIZE" like "EYES". By listening very carefully last night in a particular clip, what I heard over and over was "GICE" just like "ICE". BG's pronunciation of the "S" was soft "S" or "C", and NOT a hard "Z". It was almost as though he had a slight lisp. Perhaps it was a clip that had been more cleaned up than others, I don't know. Wondering if I have gone around the bend to crazy land or has anyone else picked up on this?????

Very interesting what your friend who specializes in gaits said! I have always felt that despite the uneven wood planks being a reason for BG walking the way he did, that he also had something wrong with his left leg in addition.