Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #125

[StarryStarryNight]

So either we have to widen the time slot, which is not impossible, or maybe they were killed and kept somewhere else, as the perp was not sure if the search would continue into the night. But when everyone left (an unexpected gift), he/they used the possibility to move the bodies.

If the rigor mortis set in, the positioning of the bodies could have not been totally the result of someone’s whim.

Although LE called off the search that night, everybody did not leave. Family and friends stayed and kept searching. They have said that many times. That has been said repeatedly throughout this case. The girls died where they were found according to LE. That is one aspect of the case which they have never changed. I tend to believe them. Just my thoughts.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

duplicate

 

[JDough]

When you think about all that, what are the chances that all that staging/oddities/signatures which were described as evil and awful, were done within that tiny window of time ( Libby’s father had already arrived to pick them up, it was broad daylight, people were around and the killer needed to flee)?

<snipped and bolded>

The time frame has always been a part of the crime that I haven't always agreed with others on.

We know from numerous (public) LE interviews that investigators believe the girls were murdered shortly after the recording "Guys- down the hill". What we don't know is what time the recording took place. We can speculate, but there has never been confirmation- this is one of the things LE has kept to themselves. It may play a large role in the case.

Another fascinating fact is that DC has remarked that the murder took place where the girls were found. They were not removed from the crime scene and brought back. They lost their lives right where they were found.

I have no doubt whatsoever that BG was still present when DG arrived to pick the girls up. BG picked the location very carefully; which leads me to believe he was very familiar with the layout of the trails, the location of homes, and at least the bottom half of RL's property. He knew no one could see or hear the girls, or anything that might be occurring from the time of the abduction to the end of their lives.

Let's say for a moment I am correct about BG still being on-site at the time of Derrick's arrival. Let's say that additional family members did not begin arriving until closer to 4pm. We know that family members (and searchers) focused on the trails near the bridge, as well as the areas near the creek. IMO, BG knew searchers would focus closer to the drop-off (the Snap Chat photo with Libby on the bridge was not discovered until much later in the evening). BG also knew the location of the crime scene was isolated and difficult to get to. He probably knew searchers would need permission to search on private property. All of these things could potentially extend the timeframe by a couple of hours- leaving him plenty of time to complete his "task", spend time at the crime scene (after the murders), and escape the area. Because of the number of searchers present on the evening of the 13th, the early sunset, and the use of flashlights due to the darkness, I believe it is entirely possible BG may have blended right in without notice. I don't necessarily believe he participated in the search, but I believe he could have used the opportunity to disappear much, much later than any of us has imagined.

 

[SMK777]

I have no doubt whatsoever that BG was still present when DG arrived to pick the girls up. BG picked the location very carefully; which leads me to believe he was very familiar with the layout of the trails, the location of homes, and at least the bottom half of RL's property. He knew no one could see or hear the girls, or anything that might be occurring from the time of the abduction to the end of their lives.

Let's say for a moment I am correct about BG still being on-site at the time of Derrick's arrival. Let's say that additional family members did not begin arriving until closer to 4pm. We know that family members (and searchers) focused on the trails near the bridge, as well as the areas near the creek. IMO, BG knew searchers would focus closer to the drop-off (the Snap Chat photo with Libby on the bridge was not discovered until much later in the evening). BG also knew the location of the crime scene was isolated and difficult to get to. He probably knew searchers would need permission to search on private property. All of these things could potentially extend the timeframe by a couple of hours- leaving him plenty of time to complete his "task", spend time at the crime scene (after the murders), and escape the area. Because of the number of searchers present on the evening of the 13th, the early sunset, and the use of flashlights due to the darkness, I believe it is entirely possible BG may have blended right in without notice. I don't necessarily believe he participated in the search, but I believe he could have used the opportunity to disappear much, much later than any of us has imagined.

Very compelling...

 

[MistyWaters]

<snipped and bolded>

The time frame has always been a part of the crime that I haven't always agreed with others on.

We know from numerous (public) LE interviews that investigators believe the girls were murdered shortly after the recording "Guys- down the hill". What we don't know is what time the recording took place. We can speculate, but there has never been confirmation- this is one of the things LE has kept to themselves. It may play a large role in the case.

Another fascinating fact is that DC has remarked that the murder took place where the girls were found. They were not removed from the crime scene and brought back. They lost their lives right where they were found.

I have no doubt whatsoever that BG was still present when DG arrived to pick the girls up. BG picked the location very carefully; which leads me to believe he was very familiar with the layout of the trails, the location of homes, and at least the bottom half of RL's property. He knew no one could see or hear the girls, or anything that might be occurring from the time of the abduction to the end of their lives.

Let's say for a moment I am correct about BG still being on-site at the time of Derrick's arrival. Let's say that additional family members did not begin arriving until closer to 4pm. We know that family members (and searchers) focused on the trails near the bridge, as well as the areas near the creek. IMO, BG knew searchers would focus closer to the drop-off (the Snap Chat photo with Libby on the bridge was not discovered until much later in the evening). BG also knew the location of the crime scene was isolated and difficult to get to. He probably knew searchers would need permission to search on private property. All of these things could potentially extend the timeframe by a couple of hours- leaving him plenty of time to complete his "task", spend time at the crime scene (after the murders), and escape the area. Because of the number of searchers present on the evening of the 13th, the early sunset, and the use of flashlights due to the darkness, I believe it is entirely possible BG may have blended right in without notice. I don't necessarily believe he participated in the search, but I believe he could have used the opportunity to disappear much, much later than any of us has imagined.

Just a comment...I doubt the killer had any way of knowing where searchers would likely search because he can’t have known what plans the girls had told others about, including if they’d told anybody their only destination was to hang out on the bridge in advance.

He also wouldn’t have known if others had planned to meet up with the girls on the bridge later or who might’ve been walking behind by minutes, nor could he have known what time it was planned for them to be picked up.

If the killer had intended to spend any amount of time with the bodies after the murders occurred, considering how close their bodies were to the bridge, then I really do believe his plans got thwarted and it’s more likely his victims didn’t cooperate, instead they attempted to flee. Regardless of what signatures may have been noted, IMO the killer was gone almost immediately.

 

[Charlot123]

<snipped and bolded>

The time frame has always been a part of the crime that I haven't always agreed with others on.

We know from numerous (public) LE interviews that investigators believe the girls were murdered shortly after the recording "Guys- down the hill". What we don't know is what time the recording took place. We can speculate, but there has never been confirmation- this is one of the things LE has kept to themselves. It may play a large role in the case.

Another fascinating fact is that DC has remarked that the murder took place where the girls were found. They were not removed from the crime scene and brought back. They lost their lives right where they were found.

I have no doubt whatsoever that BG was still present when DG arrived to pick the girls up. BG picked the location very carefully; which leads me to believe he was very familiar with the layout of the trails, the location of homes, and at least the bottom half of RL's property. He knew no one could see or hear the girls, or anything that might be occurring from the time of the abduction to the end of their lives.

Let's say for a moment I am correct about BG still being on-site at the time of Derrick's arrival. Let's say that additional family members did not begin arriving until closer to 4pm. We know that family members (and searchers) focused on the trails near the bridge, as well as the areas near the creek. IMO, BG knew searchers would focus closer to the drop-off (the Snap Chat photo with Libby on the bridge was not discovered until much later in the evening). BG also knew the location of the crime scene was isolated and difficult to get to. He probably knew searchers would need permission to search on private property. All of these things could potentially extend the timeframe by a couple of hours- leaving him plenty of time to complete his "task", spend time at the crime scene (after the murders), and escape the area. Because of the number of searchers present on the evening of the 13th, the early sunset, and the use of flashlights due to the darkness, I believe it is entirely possible BG may have blended right in without notice. I don't necessarily believe he participated in the search, but I believe he could have used the opportunity to disappear much, much later than any of us has imagined.

What if it is in general like you say, but with some deviations from your scenario that only LE, and the killer, know? Then LE is fine sending us for a wild-goose chase.

I can say I am at the stage of disregarding anything coming from this LE. Not that I don’t believe them. I just think this case is above anyone’s head, or pay grade. And solved it had to be.

I think that this case needs a dedicated task group, and instead, it is being investigated by the LEs that have their routine job to do. I think they are overwhelmed. Honestly, I would be, if on top of my regular job I had to investigate a completely new syndrome, all during work time, and with no additional help.

 

[Yemelyan]

I agree that the killer likely had a little more time at the crime scene than what we imagine. One person (DG) searching the trails is not going to cover a lot of ground very quickly. The presence of the creek between the crime scene and the rest of the trails probably gave the offender the illusion of privacy and time to do whatever he wanted to do.

I personally think he did take time to scope the area well, either previously that day or on previous visits. But if by chance he didn't know the area well and lucked into the spot where they ended up, he may have originally thought they were isolated enough that they would not be found for a couple of days. Sad to say, he may not have even realized at first how old they were. He may have assumed they were older and that people wouldn't be looking for them right away.

Signatures (whatever those may be) do not have to be time consuming or even elaborate. Very little of what went on at the crime scene would probably make sense to the average person, so applying conventional thoughts about how much time this speculated activity or that potential activity would take has little utility IMO.

 

[TheVisual]

<snipped and bolded>

The time frame has always been a part of the crime that I haven't always agreed with others on.

We know from numerous (public) LE interviews that investigators believe the girls were murdered shortly after the recording "Guys- down the hill". What we don't know is what time the recording took place. We can speculate, but there has never been confirmation- this is one of the things LE has kept to themselves. It may play a large role in the case.

Another fascinating fact is that DC has remarked that the murder took place where the girls were found. They were not removed from the crime scene and brought back. They lost their lives right where they were found.

I have no doubt whatsoever that BG was still present when DG arrived to pick the girls up. BG picked the location very carefully; which leads me to believe he was very familiar with the layout of the trails, the location of homes, and at least the bottom half of RL's property. He knew no one could see or hear the girls, or anything that might be occurring from the time of the abduction to the end of their lives.

Let's say for a moment I am correct about BG still being on-site at the time of Derrick's arrival. Let's say that additional family members did not begin arriving until closer to 4pm. We know that family members (and searchers) focused on the trails near the bridge, as well as the areas near the creek. IMO, BG knew searchers would focus closer to the drop-off (the Snap Chat photo with Libby on the bridge was not discovered until much later in the evening). BG also knew the location of the crime scene was isolated and difficult to get to. He probably knew searchers would need permission to search on private property. All of these things could potentially extend the timeframe by a couple of hours- leaving him plenty of time to complete his "task", spend time at the crime scene (after the murders), and escape the area. Because of the number of searchers present on the evening of the 13th, the early sunset, and the use of flashlights due to the darkness, I believe it is entirely possible BG may have blended right in without notice. I don't necessarily believe he participated in the search, but I believe he could have used the opportunity to disappear much, much later than any of us has imagined.

The only problem I have with this is that if the girls did indeed flee across the creek(which I believe has been confirmed) then this was NOT in his plans (if there was a plan to begin with). All this might have been triggered by a giggle he thought was aimed at him. His hair trigger goes off and he is mad. Going across an ice cold creek would have been stupid. . When they ran across the creek then panic on his part sinks in and he has to get them so as not to have anyone Iding him. Narcissists and sociopaths are like this. JMO

 

[Yuletide]

I also believe that the killer was on site when the person arrived to pick up the girls. I believe he knew he was on private property and may even have been an acquaintance of the property owner or had a run in with the property owner in the past. Being on private property bought him a little time to escape. He hustled the girls off the trail system for a reason.

 

[Yemelyan]

The only problem I have with this is that if the girls did indeed flee across the creek(which I believe has been confirmed) then this was NOT in his plans (if there was a plan to begin with). All this might have been triggered by a giggle he thought was aimed at him. His hair trigger goes off and he is mad. Going across an ice cold creek would have been stupid. . When they ran across the creek then panic on his part sinks in and he has to get them so as not to have anyone Iding him. Narcissists and sociopaths are like this. JMO

As to the bolded part, anything about them fleeing instead of being taken across under some kind of duress or coercion has NOT been confirmed in an official statement by LE to the best of my knowledge.

 

[SMK777]

Sad to say, he may not have even realized at first how old they were. He may have assumed they were older and that people wouldn't be looking for them right away.

Great observation. From a distance they could look 25. If they were, they could be returning to their own apartment and it might take days before they were noticed as missing. I’ve read of cases like that.

If BG was initially unaware that these were minor children and would be missed immediately, that could explain a few things....

 

[Yemelyan]

Great observation. From a distance they could look 25. If they were, they could be returning to their own apartment and it might take days before they were noticed as missing. I’ve read of cases like that.

If BG was initially unaware that these were minor children and would be missed immediately, that could explain a few things....

Yes, they really were in the size range of adult women (or at least older teens).

 

[MistyWaters]

What if it is in general like you say, but with some deviations from your scenario that only LE, and the killer, know? Then LE is fine sending us for a wild-goose chase.

I can say I am at the stage of disregarding anything coming from this LE. Not that I don’t believe them. I just think this case is above anyone’s head, or pay grade. And solved it had to be.

I think that this case needs a dedicated task group, and instead, it is being investigated by the LEs that have their routine job to do. I think they are overwhelmed. Honestly, I would be, if on top of my regular job I had to investigate a completely new syndrome, all during work time, and with no additional help.

I suppose LE never asked the general public to guess what occurred - they’ve consistently stressed they only want a tip from somebody who knows who the killer is. It must be painful to the loved ones of both girls to read endless speculation about the manner of the girls’ tragic deaths, given their energies have moved to honouring their young lives through the building of the new park.

But I think the message from LE and others inside the investigation which they want heard - there are facets of the killings they are keeping close to their chest because the information is something only the killer would know. And the reason it’s withheld is to protect the integrity of the investigation as it gives them the ability to recognize false confessions or malicious tips from what’s the real mccoy. JMO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I agree that the killer likely had a little more time at the crime scene than what we imagine. One person (DG) searching the trails is not going to cover a lot of ground very quickly. The presence of the creek between the crime scene and the rest of the trails probably gave the offender the illusion of privacy and time to do whatever he wanted to do.

I personally think he did take time to scope the area well, either previously that day or on previous visits. But if by chance he didn't know the area well and lucked into the spot where they ended up, he may have originally thought they were isolated enough that they would not be found for a couple of days. Sad to say, he may not have even realized at first how old they were. He may have assumed they were older and that people wouldn't be looking for them right away.

Signatures (whatever those may be) do not have to be time consuming or even elaborate. Very little of what went on at the crime scene would probably make sense to the average person, so applying conventional thoughts about how much time this speculated activity or that potential activity would take has little utility IMO.

“Signatures....do not have to be time consuming or elaborate.”
I think this is the key here. I believe the killer was still at the crime scene when DG arrived to pick up the girls, but the killer didn’t know that. I doubt the killer spent a huge amount of time laying out signatures, not because he was afraid someone would spot him at the crime scene, but because he was agitated and frazzled because things had not gone like he had them planned out in his head. Whether the girls tried to flee across the creek is unknown, but once there I think they put up a huge fight and fought hard for their lives(can’t prove it, I just believe it). I think he left a lot quicker than he had planned.

 

[MistyWaters]

As to the bolded part, anything about them fleeing instead of being taken across under some kind of duress or coercion has NOT been confirmed in an official statement by LE to the best of my knowledge.

That’s correct, in fact nothing has been confirmed about the crime scene location which involved the crossing of the creek. However at various times family members on both sides have offered comments that could give an inkling about how they might’ve reacted. Specifically Libby’s great-grandfather from Flora said she was strong-willed and would’ve put up a fight. Abby’s mother commented something similar. Libby’s grandfather said they would’ve stuck together. It’s hard to imagine they’d cross an almost freezing creek with a stranger, away from the bridge, unquestioning what was about to occur.

 

[Yemelyan]

That’s correct, in fact nothing has been confirmed about the crime scene location which involved the crossing of the creek. However at various times family members on both sides have offered comments that could give an inkling about how they might’ve reacted. Specifically Libby’s great-grandfather from Flora said she was strong-willed and would’ve put up a fight. Abby’s mother commented something similar. Libby’s grandfather said they would’ve stuck together. It’s hard to imagine they’d cross an almost freezing creek with a stranger, away from the bridge, unquestioning what was about to occur.

I'm pretty strong-willed and I'd like to think I'd put up a fight. If something ever happens to me my family may swear that I did. But I can tell you there's a very good chance I WOULD cross a freezing creek in February if there was a gun to my head or being held, God forbid, on my child or even a friend. I know the best strategy is to break off and try to run but in the moment, could I? Not sure, honestly. Hopefully I won't be in a situation to find out.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I’m probably alone in thinking all this, but....
....I don’t think the killer had a huge complex plan.
....I don’t think he is particularly smart or criminally organized.
....I do think he was hunting for a victim that day
....I don’t think he targeted the girls
....I don’t think he has any physical affliction
....I don’t think the girls or their families know him
....I don’t think he knew the girls
....I think the 2017 sketch is closer to what the killer looked like than the 2019 sketch

 

[Yemelyan]

“Signatures....do not have to be time consuming or elaborate.”
I think this is the key here. I believe the killer was still at the crime scene when DG arrived to pick up the girls, but the killer didn’t know that. I doubt the killer spent a huge amount of time laying out signatures, not because he was afraid someone would spot him at the crime scene, but because he was agitated and frazzled because things had not gone like he had them planned out in his head. Whether the girls tried to flee across the creek is unknown, but once there I think they put up a huge fight and fought hard for their lives(can’t prove it, I just believe it). I think he left a lot quicker than he had planned.

Totally agree that the murders may not have gone according to the fantasy he had in mind. This is why crime scene behaviors, even for crimes in series by the same offender, can be quite varied though they revolve around the same psychological imprint. He can be rushed, he can be experimenting, he can be limited in victim selection. I sort of question your terminology "laying out signatures" because that implies they were objects and they were much more likely to be behaviors than items.

 

[SMK777]

I’m probably alone in thinking all this, but....
....I don’t think the killer had a huge complex plan.
....I don’t think he is particularly smart or criminally organized.
....I do think he was hunting for a victim that day
....I don’t think he targeted the girls
....I don’t think he has any physical affliction
....I don’t think the girls or their families know him
....I don’t think he knew the girls
....I think the 2017 sketch is closer to what the killer looked like than the 2019 sketch

I am in agreement with nearly all of what you say, but I do at times entertain other ideas, as it’s all grist for the mill until an arrest is made and hopefully all the facts come out.

Your last item I’m totally in agreement with.

Your 3rd point I go back and forth on. I’ve sometimes had the intuition that this was a man who fantasized, never thought he’d act on anything, and suddenly found himself acting on it when he saw A & L, sadly.

 

[Justice101]

The only problem I have with this is that if the girls did indeed flee across the creek(which I believe has been confirmed) then this was NOT in his plans (if there was a plan to begin with). All this might have been triggered by a giggle he thought was aimed at him. His hair trigger goes off and he is mad. Going across an ice cold creek would have been stupid. . When they ran across the creek then panic on his part sinks in and he has to get them so as not to have anyone Iding him. Narcissists and sociopaths are like this. JMO

100% agree with your take on this as a possible scenario.

Additionally, maybe if they giggled or he thought he'd try to teach them a lesson for being on the bridge by scaring them.. he may have said he was a park ranger and they needed to get off the bridge because it is off limits and quickly hustled them down the hill. Then for some reason (maybe he enjoyed how scared they looked and the power he had), it quickly escalated and maybe he panicked and got them across the creek.. "And now what???" - before he even knew it, he'd already committed a huge crime.

However, reading from the excellent transcribed podcasts yesterday, if he raped them, all bets are off on the angry white man theory and instead, this was his plan all along.

got my fingers still crossed for an arrest.