Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #125

[JDough]

DBM Duplicate

 

[JDough]

Isn't the topography mirrored on the other side of Deer Creek, the side the girls were found?

So BG's "Down the hill" command, according to LE saying it happened right after BG's approach to the girls, could only have happened right at the end of the bridge the girls were at, the area were there's no more trail.

That's the down the hill, where the girls were standing and waiting, according to Abby's Mom on the Renner 360 interview, because they couldn't go any father and passing someone out on the bridge is not something to be done.

They had to wait, BG came up to them, Libby started her phone and they were abducted "down the hill". AJMO

Oh I agree with what you are saying @sunshineray. The "shortly after" is left to interpretation, IMO. The actual (known to LE) timeline has never been shared with the public. We can also guess on the location of their first contact, and the direction they were told to go. The crime scene tape tells a story. Even if LE cannot confirm it (which all of us understand).

I am just throwing out ideas that come to mind with all of the great posts we've had recently. I am honored to participate in discussions with all of you! I've got to say- my mind has changed so many times on this case..... the inconsistent interviews with investigators throws me for a loop sometimes. I can't remember another case that I've followed so closely having so many twists and turns. Maybe that's what LE wants? To keep us (and BG) guessing- to stir the minds of anyone who may have witnessed something, to provoke someone with untruths so they eventually come forward to dispute them?

All I really know is that each and every one of us here want the same thing- an arrest, conviction, and justice. I look forward to celebrating with all of you when it happens!

 

[Yemelyan]

I totally must have missed the confirmation about the girls fleeing across the creek. The only thing I remember being confirmed by LE is that none of the reenactments posed by YouTube channels are correct. I believe DC said "none of them are even close." This was on of the news channel interviews- which I can't find at the moment. (So consider this statement MHO). Do you have the article(s) handy? I may have missed something important. TIA

You didn't miss it....in the interview where Holeman confirms that they crossed the creek, he doesn't say or imply anything about them fleeing. Just that they crossed.

This interview was transcribed by a member here so it still exists in the threads even though the video is gone from the news website.

 

[JDough]

You didn't miss it....in the interview where Holeman confirms that they crossed the creek, he doesn't say or imply anything about them fleeing. Just that they crossed.

This interview was transcribed by a member here so it still exists in the threads even though the video is gone from the news website.

Thank you; I'm off to the media thread to search!

 

[Charlot123]

I had to step back and think back on this aspect. Every day for years I drive in to the Norfolk Naval Base and there is a digital billboard up just as you turn off I-64 onto I-564. For those who haven't been in the Navy and stationed in Norfolk, I-564 is a spur off I-64 that leads primarily to Gates 1 & 2 of the base, the large medical clinic, large dental clinic and the commissary and Navy Exchange. Sure, you can make a left just before the gates and go down Hampton Blvd, but I'd say 90% or more are headed to the base or the ships. So the audience for the FBI putting up the Delphi Murders on the billboard to me would be to target sailors and marines who might recognize this guy. Those sailors and marines are from all over the country, including IN.

But then I think back and that is the ONLY non-Virginia case I can ever recall seeing on there. Some of the most highly publicized VA cases - Alexis Murphy, Morgan Harrington, Hannah Graham, Heidi Childs/David Metzler murders, for examples - were NEVER posted there. AJ Hadsell who disappeared from a home not far from the base was never featured there. Why then, did the FBI feel the need to post the case there? Don't get me wrong, every little bit of publicity helps. But what did the FBI see in this crime that convinced them to put up billboards in Norfolk and CA?

@JnRyan , and what exactly is on the billboard? The girls, or photo of the BG, or one of the sketches?

 

[glamourkitty1922]

I check in here every so often hoping to see "arrest" on the title. This is such a sad sad story.

 

[NMurphy02]

I check in here every so often hoping to see "arrest" on the title. This is such a sad sad story.

I never thought it would take this long.

 

[SMK777]

I never thought it would take this long.

I think most of us didn’t.

Really hoping this can be resolved in the near future, and never reach the 4 year mark.

 

[JnRyan]

@JnRyan , and what exactly is on the billboard? The girls, or photo of the BG, or one of the sketches?

The first one had the photo of the killer and a photo of the girls. I believe there was a second one later in the summer with a photo of the girls and sketch #1.

 

[JnRyan]

When this first happened I didn't think it would take 3 weeks. 3 years was not what I thought. I remember where I was when the news came out. I was in Washington state on an assignment.

 

[Yemelyan]

@JnRyan , and what exactly is on the billboard? The girls, or photo of the BG, or one of the sketches?

There were 6000 billboards in 48 states. See this article for reference.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...AhAB&usg=AOvVaw0_Ga9dyn-Dt011xbO3lKpk&ampcf=1

This is what many of them looked like.

 

[Marzipan]

There were 6000 billboards in 48 states. See this article for reference.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...AhAB&usg=AOvVaw0_Ga9dyn-Dt011xbO3lKpk&ampcf=1

This is what many of them looked like.

That's way too much/too busy for a billboard unless people are regularly stalled out on that road so they can take it all in. Looks more like a billboard for missing children than a plea for info on the suspect.

 

[Yemelyan]

That's way too much/too busy for a billboard unless people are regularly stalled out on that road so they can take it all in. Looks more like a billboard for missing children than a plea for info on the suspect.

This was a very common criticism at the time. The thought was that perhaps authorities could not show a bigger image of BG due to image quality and that the larger pictures of the girls were there to elicit an emotional response/tips. However, I agree with you.

 

[Justice101]

This is probably what you remember. I’ve never watched any youtube re-enactments of armchair sleuths acting out the actual murder occurring, that’s pretty disgusting IMO. LE have released very few specific details, so neither have they confirmed nor denied any either other than the reference to the re-enactments. For that same reason nobody but the actual killer could create a true re-enactment of the murders.

The 2nd last sentence would make more sense if he was misquoted and actually said “People watch (as if it’s) the news and think they are picking up on things, but it’s false.” Because I don’t think he’s a saying “the news” is false considering much of it contains LE comments and interviews.

Why Police Have Not Released Details on the Murders of Libby German and Abby Williams from Delphi, Indiana
“When asked why police have held back these details on such a high-profile case, Indiana State Police First Sgt. Jerry Holeman tells A&E Real Crime that it is standard protocol for his officers to keep mum on those issues during ongoing investigations.

“Speaking on behalf of state police, we don’t ever release information about ongoing investigations,” Holeman says. “In this case, we gave out audio and photo evidence from [German’s] video to help locate [the perpetrator]. We do that so when we get key evidence, only the killer or killers know the cause of death. We don’t release it to the media because then everyone and their brother would know, and it’s common to get false confessions from mentally disturbed people. So we’re trying to keep the details close to our vests.”

Rumors and Speculation Around the Delphi Murder Case
Of course, the lack of confirmed details about the circumstances of the girls’ murders has only fueled more obsessive speculation from crime-watchers on sites like Reddit, where users on at least one Delphi-dedicated board with 8,400 subscribers regularly share their theories, speculations and suspicions.

“There’s a lot of false information out there,” Holeman confirms. “Social media, although not new… does impede our investigation. Like when people put up side-by-side photos of innocent people—or, at least, people with no ties to the state of Indiana or Delphi—which creates false [information]. People believe it [though] because it’s on the internet.”

And armchair detectives are even taking their interest in the case a step further by creating YouTube reenactments of the crime.

“[The videos] help us know that people don’t know [the true details], because the facts haven’t been released,” Holeman says. “People watch the news and think they are picking up on things, but it’s false. Nothing out there is accurate, which only leads to more false tips.”....”

So, I am guessing my first inclination that BG WENT BACK to the north side of the bridge.. hid there in the woods.. and waited for the girls to come back across the bridge... and that the audio "Down the Hill" is actually on the north side of the stream traversing sideways and going "down the hill" to the crime scene.

If everyone is wrong on YouTube, then that's the only scenario that was not depicted. Everyone assumed that since the photo of BG is from the south end of the bridge that that is where BG took them down. But IF, and only IF, LE found their CLOTHES WERE NOT WET... then they didn't cross the creek at all.

 

[sunshineray]

Oh I agree with what you are saying @sunshineray. The "shortly after" is left to interpretation, IMO. The actual (known to LE) timeline has never been shared with the public. We can also guess on the location of their first contact, and the direction they were told to go. The crime scene tape tells a story. Even if LE cannot confirm it (which all of us understand).

I am just throwing out ideas that come to mind with all of the great posts we've had recently. I am honored to participate in discussions with all of you! I've got to say- my mind has changed so many times on this case..... the inconsistent interviews with investigators throws me for a loop sometimes. I can't remember another case that I've followed so closely having so many twists and turns. Maybe that's what LE wants? To keep us (and BG) guessing- to stir the minds of anyone who may have witnessed something, to provoke someone with untruths so they eventually come forward to dispute them?

All I really know is that each and every one of us here want the same thing- an arrest, conviction, and justice. I look forward to celebrating with all of you when it happens!

Didn't another LE also say in an article the crime was over and done and BG was gone by the time DG got there? But...then there's the GH show where someone he trusted with telling correct information (and GH being a WS trusted source) called in and said LE thinks the killer was actually still there when DG was hiking around looking for the girls.

I also appreciate discussing with everyone, throwing bits and pieces around to air them out and look at them once again.

How many times can someone watch the same movie over and over for years even and suddenly you see something you never noticed before. Never give up hope that a path to justice will open up someday.

 

[Yemelyan]

So, I am guessing my first inclination that BG WENT BACK to the north side of the bridge.. hid there in the woods.. and waited for the girls to come back across the bridge... and that the audio "Down the Hill" is actually on the north side of the stream traversing sideways and going "down the hill" to the crime scene.

If everyone is wrong on YouTube, then that's the only scenario that was not depicted. Everyone assumed that since the photo of BG is from the south end of the bridge that that is where BG took them down. But IF, and only IF, LE found their CLOTHES WERE NOT WET... then they didn't cross the creek at all.

Two issues, though.... reportedly there was crime scene tape at the other end of the bridge (the conventional "down the hill" location). Also some/an unknown amount of their clothes were physically in the water.

And then one third issue would be Holeman's interview appearing to confirm that they did cross in some manner.

 

[JnRyan]

That's way too much/too busy for a billboard unless people are regularly stalled out on that road so they can take it all in. Looks more like a billboard for missing children than a plea for info on the suspect.

Have you ever been in the traffic to get into the Navy base on a workday morning? It's often said that base is the largest US Navy base and one of the largest naval bases in the world. If you're parked there on I-564 waiting for traffic to move you've got plenty of time to read those billboards. That was the perfect place to put it where sailors and marines from all over the USA can sit and read.

 

[Charlot123]

When this first happened I didn't think it would take 3 weeks. 3 years was not what I thought. I remember where I was when the news came out. I was in Washington state on an assignment.

It is interesting that in WA state, I never saw any billboards about the case. Neither did I hear much in the news here, I think I read about the case on WS first, and it looked like a solvable case. Then in all petered out, and I returned to it when there was a possibility of it becoming a genetic genealogy case. But even these plans did not materialize. Instead, there was 2019 PC, that, essentially, closed it all. MOO.

I sometimes wonder. Imagine, these is DNA, and the perpetrator is youngish. There is a possibility that LE won’t find any matches, if the person was conceived via egg donation, or embryo donation, and not in a CODIS database. Sometimes the donor side might be limiting potential matches, and the whole genetic genealogy path becomes useless.

Or, everyone whose DNA was found on the crime site, has an explanation as to why it was there.... Which could be the way to start, again, if LE has the guts to not believe any alibis provided by the families or intimate partners of DNA owners, or starts asking that such alibis are proved by a second party. Then something interesting could still be found.
But for this, we need an independent, dedicated group, better from another state.

 

[Justice101]

Two issues, though.... reportedly there was crime scene tape at the other end of the bridge (the conventional "down the hill" location). Also some/an unknown amount of their clothes were physically in the water.

And then one third issue would be Holeman's interview appearing to confirm that they did cross in some manner.

ok, then how can they say all videos are wrong? Because I saw a couple that just had them going down to the creek from the south end of the bridge. That can't be wrong too. One or the other...

 

[sunshineray]

LE is NEVER going to come out on record & say 'yeah, that YouTuber sure nailed the reenactment & details of this case!'

They will never divulge those details - that is kept under wraps for reasons...so even IF some youtube enactment utterly nailed what happened they would NOT admit that...

So, I take that very definitive statement of NOPE by LE with a grain of salt....

JMO

Couldn't agree more. It's not the general public LE is trying to vex by saying "we/"they" know nothing of how the crimes happened. LE wants to keep the killer or killers guessing how much forensically they have figured out.

ISP Carter said directly to the killer "you want to know what we know". It makes great sense for LE to have muddied the waters a bit. I can only hope the lack of official news is dissatisfying and maddening to those responsible for the murders and the cover up.