Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #125

[StarryStarryNight]

If the killer was lucky enough to be able to corral two young teens into a car I would think he would drive them as far away as possible from where they were abducted and not circle around and wrangle them down a steep slope in a place close to where he knew there were other people.
We all know LE has not given us they’re official version of what happened. I doubt they know everything that happened right now. What they do know and have chosen to share with us is
1) The girls were killed where they were found. I am sure something at the crime scene indicated that to them, something we are not privy to. But LE told us that.
2) The girls and the killer crossed the creek. Something LE found indicated that to them. We are not privy to that information, but LE told us that.

 

[JnRyan]

I simply wonder if there is a system that would allow rotation of workers in Indiana? Whether future or currently used? Something where workers would be staying and working for 3-4 months, and then going back home? This is a good chance for the workers to know the state, especially if they are hiking. Because the guy could be anything, including military or technical personnel.

ETA: I googled shipyards in Illinois and found a large one, on the border with Indiana. Don’t know what it is, but geographically, could suit as well. (Checking other states, too. Very interesting. Interesting history of Minnesota shipyards in WWII, unrelated to Delphi).

I wouldn't say there is a 'rotation' of workers. However because NSWC-Crane Div. is a NAVSEA command and the shipyards work with NAVSEA, it probably would not be unusual for NSY personnel who actually work on current systems to go TAD to Crane and vice versa.

There might be some civilian shipyards in the midwest engaged in building and overhauling non-DoD and non-USCG vessels. But there are only 4 USN shipyards now. Norfolk (actually in Portsmouth VA), Portsmouth (actually in Kittery ME), Puget Sound WA and Pearl Harbor HI.

 

[carbuff]

It's hard to find bodies in the woods. Especially in the dark, with nothing but headlamps and flashlights. We have dozens of cases here over the years where the missing person was eventually found in areas that had been searched, sometimes repeatedly.

 

[somequestions]

I meant "local" as in "that part of the midwest," in relation to accents and states, not "local" in relation to the crime. Sorry, should have phrased that more clearly.

I think the discussion over the bridge guy's accent is not going to help narrow down where he lives. I guess if I participated in it, I would suggest that he does not sound like he has a Bostonian, New England accent. He also does not sound Southern.

But none of that is going to solve anything. In my opinion, if someone who is 40 years old and has lived in Michigan their whole life decides to then move to Alabama, they are still going to sound like someone from Michigan(if you can actually distinguish what someone who is from Michigan sounds like).

I think it is better to look at location in relation to the crime scene area. But even that has limitations with it being a public place anyone could visit. This person could be from Delphi, Indiana as much as from Omaha, Nebraska.

I cannot distinguish any other accents from such a short clip of audio. The man on the bridge could be from California as much as Indiana and I would not be able to tell based on his accent.

I think people think they hear things just like they think they see things, all in an attempt to help solve the case when in reality they are adding to the misinformation. People just want to see the case solved so badly so they think they have the answer. I think everyone has felt that way at some point about any case you can think of that is still listed as unsolved.

At least people still discuss this case. So many cases fade away unresolved.

 

[JDough]

Just wanted to repost the video footage from WRTV on February 14, 2017, for those who may not have viewed it. Great source for understanding the area.

WRTV

 

[SMK777]

Is BG on the bridge even related to the killings, or maybe he is a random passerby? I don’t know anymore.

Wow, now wouldn’t that be a shock, if in the end BG is not in any way related to the murders.

Do you think that’s possible?

What are the actual chances of that?

Or were you speaking rhetorically?

If he was a random passerby, he never came forward to identify himself. From fear he’d be suspected? Outstanding warrants? But then, he simply has to be the one who said down the hill.

 

[stattlich1]

Here's a post from August, 2019. At the time, for sure, LE says they think there was a creek crossing. My question is, at this juncture, do they STILL believe that to be so? I mean, LE totally changed course in the investigation, totally changed the sketch of the wanted man in this killing, so, what else may have changed?

If all the youtubers got it wrong, then why does this vid speak of a creek crossing? How different could a potential scenario be that would lead LE to say it's wrong to speculate they went down the hill, crossed the creek, and the were killed where they were found?

Doesn't make sense, and doesn't add up, my opinion.

@PaulaDC posted this video on the last thread, but I'm just getting around to watching it.

Anyway, around the 7:30 min mark, Riley talks about why they think BG is a local, or at least familiar with the area. I didn't transcribe it, but he basically said that the killer led the girls through a wooded area, from the bridge, down to a location, and that he had to have some knowledge of the river to know how deep it is, where to cross, where not to cross.

Does this pretty much clarify the question of how they got to the CS? To me it sounds like LE thinks he led them across the creek. Period. No fleeing, no recrossing the bridge, no getting into a car on the private drive.

Unless, they think he exited via crossing the creek. IDK.

It sounds like LE doesn't know everything about how it all went down, either, but IMO, this could be a significant piece of information we've been wanting. Maybe. The re-enactments wouldn't be wrong in theory, if he led them across the creek (and LE is lying when they say the re-enactments are wrong). Or like I said, maybe they think he left the scene via the creek. Riley did add that part in last. I'm flummoxed.

Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
MOO
TL4S, Aug 22, 2019 Report
#51 Like

 

[St. Anthony2017]

If we assume the YouTube reenactments to be erroneous, then what scenarios do we ponder?

How about a waiting vehicle, under that bridge, at the bottom of the hill, forced in to it, driven to a location say, that cemetery, and forced to the final murder scene from there?

Far fetched eh?

Did they really cross that creek?

A car or pick up truck could have been involved. Remember when they impounded RL’s truck? Not accusing him just saying his truck was taken in to be forensically combed for evidence.

 

[Charlot123]

Wow, now wouldn’t that be a shock, if in the end BG is not in any way related to the murders.

Do you think that’s possible?

What are the actual chances of that?

Or were you speaking rhetorically?

If he was a random passerby, he never came forward to identify himself. From fear he’d be suspected? Outstanding warrants? But then, he simply has to be the one who said down the hill.

Just another theory, and MOO. All we have is the video of BM, that slightly reminds first sketch (OBG), but has zero similarity to YBG. The LE says YBG is responsible for murders. Hence I assume that the guy on the bridge may not necessarily be responsible for the murders. Now, some people say "BG was in disguise, that is why". But - LE never stated it. So I can't assume.

Given the scarcity of what comes from LE and abundance of public guesses, it is quite possible to assume that BG is a passerby who accidentally got on the video. I don't see the piece where he'd approach the girls and say, "Hi, guys..", so there is no connection between him and the Voice.

Now about random passerby never identifying himself. Maybe he is afraid? RL spent a lot of time in jail and was very vocal about it later, so BG knows how desperate the LEs are to find the perpetrator...scared, maybe? There probably would be people not believing him, his life may be in danger? Again, MOO.

Or what if he did identify himself? And his voice is different, and he has an alibi, and his DNA doesn't match what LE has.

And in the meantime, for three years this man has been searched for as the perpetrator...

What would LE do?

MOO. IRL - I don't know. I see a lot of inconsistencies in the information coming from LE and think, either the killings were planned with devious trickery, and maybe LEs are beginning to see it, or they are silent so that we don't see the obvious...

 

[Charlot123]

I wouldn't say there is a 'rotation' of workers. However because NSWC-Crane Div. is a NAVSEA command and the shipyards work with NAVSEA, it probably would not be unusual for NSY personnel who actually work on current systems to go TAD to Crane and vice versa.

There might be some civilian shipyards in the midwest engaged in building and overhauling non-DoD and non-USCG vessels. But there are only 4 USN shipyards now. Norfolk (actually in Portsmouth VA), Portsmouth (actually in Kittery ME), Puget Sound WA and Pearl Harbor HI.

So, what I get, it is hardly likely that there is a team of shipyard workers who, with some regularity, would be sent to Indiana. To VA, maybe, but likely, they employ their own,and maybe send to other places. No big docks in Indiana.

Still there is a slim possibility of some other repair crews being sent to do other work at bases, but probably, not a high chance of the perp. being a repairman periodically sent to Indiana, right?

(I was just thinking of periodic workers other than truck drivers, but maybe, wrong idea).

 

[Charlot123]

I too, see no reason to not believe this. So, the killer(s) get the girls in the car, drive 10 minutes or so to the cemetery and force them down the hill to where their bodies were found.

Who knows, right? It's all speculation.

I have read of the little traveled road that passes Delphi Cemetery, and that when one is parked at the rear thereof, the vehicle can not be seen from that road.

It provides rather easy access to the very remote CS area.

It also solves the ease of escape issue, the ability to drive right out of there without being seen by anyone on the trails.

Say the video of BG is taken, then the phone is pocketed, but left on. The recording tells the story of abduction, but may also be silent. Maybe the girls were quickly gagged in the car. Then, they get out of the car at the cemetery, in to the woods, and 'guys' 'down the hill' is said at that spot, and NOT at the end of the bridge.

Then there is the notion of the dogs. Search and rescue dogs. Surely they would hit on the girls scent at the end of that bridge. They either lost that scent at the bottom of that hill on that driveway, or they lost it at the creek. Maybe this explains the answer of why the searchers didn't find the girls that night, didn't think to cross the creek, because they knew the girls scent disappeared on that driveway?

This is why I've asked, is there definitive proof they ever crossed that creek?

Further, if a dog was there, and followed a scent to the creek, does one not think surely a trained searcher would have crossed?

All speculation.

My speculation.

One more guess - they could have been kept in a closed, warm place, and killed much later than around the time DG approached the bridge.

The day was very warm, but at night, as I read, it became cold. Since 3:30 till almost midday next day on the ground? (I forgot when they were found, but a lot of time...).

Now "a shack", a closed place, could have been much warmer, and if the girls were killed past midnight and dumped at RL's property in the middle of the night...

Or maybe, they were separated, after all, it is possible.

One was killed immediately and left at RL CS (and missed in early searches), and the other, brought there later. That could explain why the girls were "dumped" together. And the different dates of death, too.

One was killed. The other one was brought somewhere closer to the killer's lair and kept there for a while. But the killer knew that he could not keep the second one close to him for a long time, because, search dogs... So by bringing her back he was getting rid of the trace leading to him.


MOO.

ETA. I don't know who was the intended target. Either, Libby, and then, my pure guess, she was killed first and left at the CS. Or, Abby was the target, and then, Libby was killed to get rid of her.

I think that the crime scene was unrelated to the perp's love of Shakespeare (once discussed here) or someone else. I think the crime was routine, and targeting one victim, but staged to create the impression of a SK targeting two females. Of course if the CS looks strange or odd, any LE would be following the oddities, the signatures. In the meantime, a more mundane, prosaic, reason, might be well camouflaged.

We need father Brown to solve this crime.

 

[JnRyan]

\

So, what I get, it is hardly likely that there is a team of shipyard workers who, with some regularity, would be sent to Indiana. To VA, maybe, but likely, they employ their own,and maybe send to other places. No big docks in Indiana.

Still there is a slim possibility of some other repair crews being sent to do other work at bases, but probably, not a high chance of the perp. being a repairman periodically sent to Indiana, right?

(I was just thinking of periodic workers other than truck drivers, but maybe, wrong idea).

I can't say that it is that way or not. Think about this, shipyard workers get stumped on how to fix a problem with a new system or a new mod to a system. After phone calls don't fix it, the NSY reaches out to a NSWC - Crane, Dahlgren - and says, "Can you look at this?" So NAVSEA or a NSWC sends a team to analyze the problem. Then the reverse might happen. An R&D team working on a new system, upgrade or a mod either is stumped or needs to know if they are on the right track. NSY or NAVSEA sends a team of persons who see the current systems and how they work on a regular basis for a 'reality' check on the R&D. I can see some 'cross pollination' here between the commands.

Add to this lateral transfers or promotions. Someone who worked at an NSY goes to a NSWC and now goes back to an NSY or NAVSEA or another NSWC. I've run across individuals who had a minor position in VA or FL at one command and see them 2, 3, 4 or even longer later in CT or IN or OK or Washington DC.

I don't know why I think it is unlikely this is a military or civilian member - my gut or my instinct, don't know. But if it is that this guy could have gone on the open position listings, applied for and taken a job somewhere else is entirely likely. Come to think of it the discussion of Grissom AFB, about 35 miles to the east came up at one time. I do know of one case on here where a lady went missing and shortly there after her male roommate, a DoD civilian employee, applied for and was transferred to an overseas location. (I think that case has an equal or better chance of someone else in her life as the suspect, but some still look suspiciously at the former roommate.)

 

[JnRyan]

Wow, now wouldn’t that be a shock, if in the end BG is not in any way related to the murders.

Do you think that’s possible?

What are the actual chances of that?

Or were you speaking rhetorically?

If he was a random passerby, he never came forward to identify himself. From fear he’d be suspected? Outstanding warrants? But then, he simply has to be the one who said down the hill.

I haven't given it much thought about the guy in the video. I haven't heard the entire recording like LE. I do have doubts about the sketches. The sketches are not of anyone - that I know of - that someone saw at the crime scene. I believe they are a process of elimination and these sketches are basically of persons seen on the trail or in the parking areas and LE has never been able to ID them. One of them might be the killer. Or just another witness.

I don't believe it is a strong possibility, but a possibility nonetheless, that, say, the guy in Sketch #2 sees his sketch on the news. He might be sitting in Lafayette IN, Louisville KY or outside Chicago at home smoking an illegal joint from his illegal grow. He sees himself and knows he didn't do it, but hey man, I don't need the police in my business. I can't be on their radar. Not my problem, he says. Just an example of someone who 'doesn't want to be involved.'

 

[Charlot123]

\

I can't say that it is that way or not. Think about this, shipyard workers get stumped on how to fix a problem with a new system or a new mod to a system. After phone calls don't fix it, the NSY reaches out to a NSWC - Crane, Dahlgren - and says, "Can you look at this?" So NAVSEA or a NSWC sends a team to analyze the problem. Then the reverse might happen. An R&D team working on a new system, upgrade or a mod either is stumped or needs to know if they are on the right track. NSY or NAVSEA sends a team of persons who see the current systems and how they work on a regular basis for a 'reality' check on the R&D. I can see some 'cross pollination' here between the commands.

Add to this lateral transfers or promotions. Someone who worked at an NSY goes to a NSWC and now goes back to an NSY or NAVSEA or another NSWC. I've run across individuals who had a minor position in VA or FL at one command and see them 2, 3, 4 or even longer later in CT or IN or OK or Washington DC.

I don't know why I think it is unlikely this is a military or civilian member - my gut or my instinct, don't know. But if it is that this guy could have gone on the open position listings, applied for and taken a job somewhere else is entirely likely. Come to think of it the discussion of Grissom AFB, about 35 miles to the east came up at one time. I do know of one case on here where a lady went missing and shortly there after her male roommate, a DoD civilian employee, applied for and was transferred to an overseas location. (I think that case has an equal or better chance of someone else in her life as the suspect, but some still look suspiciously at the former roommate.)

I don’t know if he is military or civilian, organized, for sure, but it can be personal trait. I just think that at the military bases, given that they are huge agglomerations of people, it is easy to hide, be it military or civilian. And as you said, easily get a lateral transfer, if need be.

Indiana Packers is also a place to hide.

But better still, all the universities nearby. Same principle, huge anthills, where keeping the structure is more important than personalities.

 

[Thelastleg]

Here's a post from August, 2019. At the time, for sure, LE says they think there was a creek crossing. My question is, at this juncture, do they STILL believe that to be so? I mean, LE totally changed course in the investigation, totally changed the sketch of the wanted man in this killing, so, what else may have changed?

If all the youtubers got it wrong, then why does this vid speak of a creek crossing? How different could a potential scenario be that would lead LE to say it's wrong to speculate they went down the hill, crossed the creek, and the were killed where they were found?

Doesn't make sense, and doesn't add up, my opinion.

@PaulaDC posted this video on the last thread, but I'm just getting around to watching it.

Anyway, around the 7:30 min mark, Riley talks about why they think BG is a local, or at least familiar with the area. I didn't transcribe it, but he basically said that the killer led the girls through a wooded area, from the bridge, down to a location, and that he had to have some knowledge of the river to know how deep it is, where to cross, where not to cross.

Does this pretty much clarify the question of how they got to the CS? To me it sounds like LE thinks he led them across the creek. Period. No fleeing, no recrossing the bridge, no getting into a car on the private drive.

Unless, they think he exited via crossing the creek. IDK.

It sounds like LE doesn't know everything about how it all went down, either, but IMO, this could be a significant piece of information we've been wanting. Maybe. The re-enactments wouldn't be wrong in theory, if he led them across the creek (and LE is lying when they say the re-enactments are wrong). Or like I said, maybe they think he left the scene via the creek. Riley did add that part in last. I'm flummoxed.

Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
MOO
TL4S, Aug 22, 2019 Report
#51 Like

I think it's time LE had another press release and gave an up to date report of what they have now that the investigation went back to the beginning as stated by DC in the last April 2019 PC. There's a lot of information out there that's possibly been disregarded now and new information that's not known by the public. LE need to engage with the local public if they want help to solve the case.

 

[JDough]

My speculation.

One more guess - they could have been kept in a closed, warm place, and killed much later than around the time DG approached the bridge.

The day was very warm, but at night, as I read, it became cold. Since 3:30 till almost midday next day on the ground? (I forgot when they were found, but a lot of time...).

Now "a shack", a closed place, could have been much warmer, and if the girls were killed past midnight and dumped at RL's property in the middle of the night...

MOO.

I'm sorry, Charlot, but based on the information that has been released (in addition to what we may have heard on the scanner transmissions), I just can't get on board with the idea of the girls being taken from the scene and later returned.

We know that sunset on 02/13/2017 was at 6:20pm (Sunrise and sunset times in Delphi, IN - February 2017). We also know that searches for the girls began around 4pm and continued throughout the night without ceasing. Kelsi reiterated this info numerous times in the Scene of the Crime podcasts, as well as the James Renner interviews. IMO, there is no way the perpetrator could have removed the girls for any period of time, and returned later (under darkness) with them. In my mind, this theory creates too many hazards for BG. The last thing he wanted was to fall down the hill and break a leg while trying to navigate the terrain and keep two young girls under his control.

[Edit by mod]

The shack comment has been debated on numerous occasions. While originally I believed the girls may have been taken to a run-down building somewhere near the scene, I absolutely have changed my mind about this. Especially after re-watching the James Renner interviews with Kelsi (

). I now believe any reference to the shack (made by DC) in the April PC was leading to the belief that BG has a bit if a conscience left. "There’s also a book that talks so well about evil, about death and about eternity," Carter said. "To the murderer, I believe you have just a little bit of a conscience left. And I can assure you that how you left (German and Williams) in that woods is not what they’re experiencing today." (Delphi murders: Why 'The Shack' film was mentioned in reference to killings)

*Reminder- specific information from the scanner thread may not be discussed here. Although, you can almost always find an approved source to bring the information in. Great resource for finding some additional info!

 

[StarryStarryNight]

dbm

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I'm sorry, Charlot, but based on the information that has been released (in addition to what we may have heard on the scanner transmissions), I just can't get on board with the idea of the girls being taken from the scene and later returned.

We know that sunset on 02/13/2017 was at 6:20pm (Sunrise and sunset times in Delphi, IN - February 2017). We also know that searches for the girls began around 4pm and continued throughout the night without ceasing. Kelsi reiterated this info numerous times in the Scene of the Crime podcasts, as well as the James Renner interviews. IMO, there is no way the perpetrator could have removed the girls for any period of time, and returned later (under darkness) with them. In my mind, this theory creates too many hazards for BG. The last thing he wanted was to fall down the hill and break a leg while trying to navigate the terrain and keep two young girls under his control.

[Edit by mod]

The shack comment has been debated on numerous occasions. While originally I believed the girls may have been taken to a run-down building somewhere near the scene, I absolutely have changed my mind about this. Especially after re-watching the James Renner interviews with Kelsi (

). I now believe any reference to the shack (made by DC) in the April PC was leading to the belief that BG has a bit if a conscience left. "There’s also a book that talks so well about evil, about death and about eternity," Carter said. "To the murderer, I believe you have just a little bit of a conscience left. And I can assure you that how you left (German and Williams) in that woods is not what they’re experiencing today." (Delphi murders: Why 'The Shack' film was mentioned in reference to killings)

*Reminder- specific information from the scanner thread may not be discussed here. Although, you can almost always find an approved source to bring the information in. Great resource for finding some additional info!

I wish I could like this a million times.

 

[Andreee]

Far too much speculation about what has been made clear by LE. Firstly, that where they

If the killer was lucky enough to be able to corral two young teens into a car I would think he would drive them as far away as possible from where they were abducted and not circle around and wrangle them down a steep slope in a place close to where he knew there were other people.
We doubt they know everything that happened right now. What they do know and have chosen to share with us is
1) The girls were killed where they were found. I am sure something at the crime scene indicated that to them, something we are not privy to. But LE told us that.
2) The girls and the killer crossed the creek. Something LE found indicated that to them. We are not privy to that information, but LE told us that.

Yes, and this I believe and is what LE told us so I s

I wish I could like this a million times.

Same!!! I think the above can be taken as facts at this point.

 

[Yemelyan]

I'm sorry, Charlot, but based on the information that has been released (in addition to what we may have heard on the scanner transmissions), I just can't get on board with the idea of the girls being taken from the scene and later returned.

We know that sunset on 02/13/2017 was at 6:20pm (Sunrise and sunset times in Delphi, IN - February 2017). We also know that searches for the girls began around 4pm and continued throughout the night without ceasing. Kelsi reiterated this info numerous times in the Scene of the Crime podcasts, as well as the James Renner interviews. IMO, there is no way the perpetrator could have removed the girls for any period of time, and returned later (under darkness) with them. In my mind, this theory creates too many hazards for BG. The last thing he wanted was to fall down the hill and break a leg while trying to navigate the terrain and keep two young girls under his control.

[Edit by mod]

The shack comment has been debated on numerous occasions. While originally I believed the girls may have been taken to a run-down building somewhere near the scene, I absolutely have changed my mind about this. Especially after re-watching the James Renner interviews with Kelsi (

). I now believe any reference to the shack (made by DC) in the April PC was leading to the belief that BG has a bit if a conscience left. "There’s also a book that talks so well about evil, about death and about eternity," Carter said. "To the murderer, I believe you have just a little bit of a conscience left. And I can assure you that how you left (German and Williams) in that woods is not what they’re experiencing today." (Delphi murders: Why 'The Shack' film was mentioned in reference to killings)

*Reminder- specific information from the scanner thread may not be discussed here. Although, you can almost always find an approved source to bring the information in. Great resource for finding some additional info!

Excellent summation of what we know! Anyone who reads this and continues to think there's any real chance the girls were taken away and returned to the location later is just ignoring facts at this point.

I would add as a little extra validation to your post that in Scene of the Crime, Kelsi and Carter discuss his press conference comments on "The Shack" and he outright confirms, it's just a movie about murder and forgiveness that spoke to him emotionally. That's the reason he talked about it. It wasn't a clue or a coded message.