Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #127

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This is exactly how my mind’s eye sees it. I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s an occasional “regular” at some of the strip clubs in surrounding cities. Probably patronizes day shifts. I think there’s probably a very obscure online presence within a group that is not mainstream. I can’t imagine him browsing Facebook or Reddit. I’m torn on computer skills or not...part of me thinks he lurks in apps that younger crowds use...like Snapchat. I hope somewhere, someone makes the connection and says, “Holy *advertiser censored*, Creepy McCreepersen definitely could be BG”
 
In the Scene of the Crime Podcast, the girl’s families talk about how they went to the Delphi trails a lot as it’s a very popular place for families to go on hikes or bike rides together on days off, and the girls went there a couple times by themselves too, to explore and do photography. The podcast also mentions that there’s a “geocache” there, and the girls had gone there a couple times to check it out. Kelsi said that it’s very popular hangout for young people.

That’s why I agree with LE that it must be someone local, either in Delphi or surrounding area, who is (very) familiar with the Delphi trails, and knew that young women hung out there. He likely stalked that location for quite a while, getting his plan of attack ready to execute efficiently in broad daylight. I don’t think he necessarily wanted Abby and Libby to be his victims, but they were in the wrong time and wrong place with a predator. JMO.

Kelsi mentions the two weekends before the murders, in her interview with JR. I not sure if she’s referring to high bridge, though. Starting at time code 11:38
 
find the relative if there is one.

it is my understanding that many SK's follow and learn from other notorious SK's which means he may never pick a place he is connected to to do a killing, or like
Although I don’t believe Libby and Abby were specifically targeted, I do believe the killer had thought about doing this type thing for awhile and had certainly planned things out to a certain extent. Since the important thing to him would have been executing the murder, it seems to me that buying a plane ticket and having a schedule to meet would have interfered with that “thrill”.
Then again, maybe having a deadline was part of the thrill to his warped mind.
Just my thoughts.
.
So, the bridge is supposed to be not so easy to find if you didn’t really know where and what to look for...I’ve read that many places. I’ve looked at sattelite maps of the area...it is kind of wild. He went off trail and committed a double homocide. He absolutely HAD to know that forested area, and he had to have been practicing the off trail terrain for weeks leading up. I have forested property in IL that is very similar to the wooded areas of the park. The terrain changes dramatically from season to season. A heavy rain send can trees toppling, deepen ravine crevices, and throw debris of all sorts in the path. The last wind event we had in my area coupled with rains completely changed my own property. I think knowledge of the land would guarantee “local”, but do we have a trail killer that stalks other parks as well outside of that area?
 
Please disregard this post if it is a total brain fart and I’m forgetting any key elements atm, which is entirely likely. I obviously need to go refresh in the media thread, shake some rust off, but in the meantime:

What if there are no witnesses. Maybe nobody really saw him. Maybe they think they might have seen him, or who they saw “possibly could have been him”, or something along those lines.

How likely do you guys think this is, that the sketches may not even be of BG? If he planned this carefully, then perhaps he also planned to make sure he wouldn’t be seen by others on the trail. So, maybe went in through the trees, and out through the trees (insert location of choice). My guess has always been he had his vehicle pulled up somewhere by the trees.

Is this even a possibility, that maybe there are no witnesses?

eta: Maybe this is also where the sketch discrepancies come in.
 
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Please disregard this post if it is a total brain fart and I’m forgetting any key elements atm, which is entirely likely. I obviously need to go refresh in the media thread, shake some rust off, but in the meantime:

What if there are no witnesses. Maybe nobody really saw him. Maybe they think they might have seen him, or who they saw “possibly could have been him”, or something along those lines.

How likely do you guys think this is, that the sketches may not even be of BG? If he planned this carefully, then perhaps he also planned to make sure he wouldn’t be seen by others on the trail. So, maybe went in through the trees, and out through the trees (insert location of choice). My guess has always been he had his vehicle pulled up somewhere by the trees.

Is this even a possibility, that maybe there are no witnesses?

eta: Maybe this is also where the sketch discrepancies come in.
It's certainly possible that there are no witnesses to BG except Libby's video and audio. IMO though, considering what was said and how it was said at the April 2019 press conference, the killer was seen by, at the very least, one witness. I don't want to get too specific as I think it's been talked about enough (any witness who feels police think they did in fact see the killer that day is at risk IMO).
 
Please disregard this post if it is a total brain fart and I’m forgetting any key elements atm, which is entirely likely. I obviously need to go refresh in the media thread, shake some rust off, but in the meantime:

What if there are no witnesses. Maybe nobody really saw him. Maybe they think they might have seen him, or who they saw “possibly could have been him”, or something along those lines.

How likely do you guys think this is, that the sketches may not even be of BG? If he planned this carefully, then perhaps he also planned to make sure he wouldn’t be seen by others on the trail. So, maybe went in through the trees, and out through the trees (insert location of choice). My guess has always been he had his vehicle pulled up somewhere by the trees.

Is this even a possibility, that maybe there are no witnesses?

eta: Maybe this is also where the sketch discrepancies come in.

IMO the 2nd witness sketch IS the bridge guy in the video (who LE knows is the perpetrator). I know the video has been analyzed to death and everyone has their own take on it but after watching it many many times JMO he resembles the 2nd sketch (particularly the outline of his chin). I DO think the witness saw him.
 
Just noticed that the day of the murders was a couple of days away from the full moon. If we think that the predator was on the hunt for a few days, maybe it is of certain relevance?
It's an interesting topic for sure just in general with regards to people's emotions. Many in LE and medical fields would say the week of a full moon, (including the few days before and after) is on average, a busier time than normal for them.

In reading I came across some literature saying it involves positive and negative ions in the air. During the full moon phase positive ions increase close to the Earth's surface. Increased positive ions can cause depression and health issues in our bodies. I won't get too tech but the science is there to read.

While too many negative ions can also be a bad thing in some ways too it's more specific to pulmonary issues and dangerous static electricity. Negative ion they seem to help more than harm the human emotional well being.

If you're feeling blue or unwell due to positive ion buildup, the science of ions suggests having a walk in the rain or visiting a flowing water source (waterfalls, rivers, creeks, beaches or even a fountain) to get some needed negative ions.
 
This is exactly how my mind’s eye sees it. I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s an occasional “regular” at some of the strip clubs in surrounding cities. Probably patronizes day shifts. I think there’s probably a very obscure online presence within a group that is not mainstream. I can’t imagine him browsing Facebook or Reddit. I’m torn on computer skills or not...part of me thinks he lurks in apps that younger crowds use...like Snapchat. I hope somewhere, someone makes the connection and says, “Holy ****, Creepy McCreepersen definitely could be BG”
I think, he has interest for all of it, Facebook/SnapChat or similar AND after the crimes Facebook/Forums like WS/Redd.

I have a new reason to overthink, if BG is able for hacking forums like WS, especially private mails ..... He easily may have also experts on hand, not only being an expert himself, this Mr. McCreepersen.
 
maybe the evansville murder victims were moved because he killed near to where he lives. maybe he planned differently for next time because he wanted more attention on the state of his victims and the shock of the community. he wanted them found so he could get the rush of instant infamy and sadistic pleasure.

for me this is a sadistic sexual predator, serial killer, and thinking like him, the wants young girls, he wants pairs,
he wants shock and awe. He has stalked young girls or approached them in the past.

He has probably molested in the past , maybe sisters or cousins. He has done normal killer stuff in his childhood and either has not been caught or no one cared what he did. He was probably bullied and later became a known bully.

collects *advertiser censored*, maybe surveillance tech, cameras + weapons . If asphyxiated , this could be the actual sex act, with no other obvious sexual activity.

I feel like this is him..this is who he is... of course mOO.
Maybe, he got bullied himself and out of revenge became a bully also, but perhaps a hidden bully. Someone, who secretly practiced retribution against the wrong ones to impress the right ones at the same time. With his deeds (if there are more than the Delphi murders) he always brought much suspion on innocent people, also a way for revenge. MOO
 
Re the discussion on the “creepy” guy on the previous thread. I’ve never read that either of the girls used that word. If they did, LE certainly didn’t say it was on the recording Libby made. However, several people did use that term. IIRC Gray Hughes was the first person, then Becky Patty, and finally by Kelsi in the following podcast.

Victimology Podcast

The Delphi Murders – Interview with Kelsi
@ 13:00

Q. You dropped them off like early after noonish or like mid-afternoon?
K: I dropped the girls off around 1:30 on my way to my boyfriend’s house. My Dad was supposed to pick them up around 3:30.

My sister and Abby were there taking pictures and videos of each other and just hanging out which is something very common in that area. And at one point the girls had already gotten across the bridge and it seems like Libby realizes that something is wrong or there’s a creepy guy behind them who just kind of made her feel nervous. Like she felt like something was gonna happen, so she started recording Abby and got the suspect in the back of this video and now that’s been – part of that has been released to the public, so you can hear his voice and see him walking across the bridge.

Victimology – The Oracl3 Network
 
A further interesting bit from the above podcast:

Q. And something also really interesting – the suspect’s composite had changed.
K: Yeah, yeah. That was a very crazy turn for us. We went two years looking for one man and now we’re looking for somebody that looked completely different. And the only real explanation they gave us for that was that over the course of the investigation, technology and knowledge that they had just evolved and they were able to come up with a better or fully more accurate sketch of what this guy probably looks like.

Q. Now what was that like, realizing they were changing the suspect?
K: Well, well it was really rough.

K: They [LE] can’t clear anyone unfortunately. They won’t do that. We’ve asked them to come out and do it a couple of times and they haven’t.

She found the Down the Hill and Scene of the Crime podcasts very interesting but felt that certain questions were asked and certain things said in Scene of the Crime that maybe shouldn’t have been shared publicly.

Kelsi said victims’ families need better assistance. The FBI provided the families with a counsellor, specifically for Kelsi who was 17 at the time. The counsellor brought her a stuffed frog!!! She thinks people with more training are required. She didn’t need a counsellor in the days or week after the murders but she does want one now and she can’t find one who specialises in helping the families of murder victims.

The families are also victims, but their suffering doesn't end with a funeral, a trial or a guilty verdict. You don't ever get closure, only justice, so ongoing counselling should be made available to those who need it.

Thank you to everyone who has kept these threads alive. The fourth anniversary is getting close but I suspect there are no new developments. It may be time to bring in some fresh eyes from at least one very seasoned detective.
 
Please disregard this post if it is a total brain fart and I’m forgetting any key elements atm, which is entirely likely. I obviously need to go refresh in the media thread, shake some rust off, but in the meantime:

What if there are no witnesses. Maybe nobody really saw him. Maybe they think they might have seen him, or who they saw “possibly could have been him”, or something along those lines.

How likely do you guys think this is, that the sketches may not even be of BG? If he planned this carefully, then perhaps he also planned to make sure he wouldn’t be seen by others on the trail. So, maybe went in through the trees, and out through the trees (insert location of choice). My guess has always been he had his vehicle pulled up somewhere by the trees.

Is this even a possibility, that maybe there are no witnesses?

eta: Maybe this is also where the sketch discrepancies come in.
I don't believe you are far off with the possibility that we have another person on the trail that is not the killer in one or both sketches. When you think about it, these are not likely sketches where the 'witness' states they saw him walking with the girls, on the bridge with the girls or at the crime scene with the girls. What likely happened is LE tried to determine who was on the trails that day and ask them who else they saw. Then by process of elimination LE might have one or two males they can't identify. I suppose someone might say they saw a man in a blue jacket. (But I was out on a bike/pedestrian/equestrian trail the other day and the only attire I remember is another bike rider wearing a bright yellow jacket and I probably saw 20-30 persons on the trail. The remainder of the others don't stand out to me and I couldn't recall them if I had to.) On top of that LE may have not gotten to a 'witness' within hours when their memory was fresh. (I believe the 2nd sketch was done 2-4 days after the murders by an ISP artist.) I know ISP 1st Sgt Holeman stated at a subsequent CrimeCon panel that the 1st sketch released was a composite developed over weeks or months from more than one 'witness'. (A sketch by committee?) He indicated it was a trial and error until they got a consensus from the 'witnesses' and LE.

I suppose at least person may have come forward and stated they saw a man in a blue jacket and that comes close to solidifying our sketch. But I do believe it is entirely possible that our sketch or sketches are not accurate enough or even of the actual killer, but just an unidentified 'witness'. We've heard LE state they are looking for the driver of a vehicle parked at the old CPS building and they seem to indicate that this is merely a person who is unaccounted for by LE. Is it the killer or just an unaccounted for witness?

Yeah, we may actually have the likeness of the killer. But there is enough of a doubt that it nags at me.
 
This is exactly how my mind’s eye sees it. I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s an occasional “regular” at some of the strip clubs in surrounding cities. Probably patronizes day shifts. I think there’s probably a very obscure online presence within a group that is not mainstream. I can’t imagine him browsing Facebook or Reddit. I’m torn on computer skills or not...part of me thinks he lurks in apps that younger crowds use...like Snapchat. I hope somewhere, someone makes the connection and says, “Holy ****, Creepy McCreepersen definitely could be BG”
I often wonder if he doesn't come here at least as an unregistered guest. Regardless of his computer skills, I do believe he does periodic internet searches to read or listen to what is stated about the murders. Isn't one of the red flags someone who exhibits an unusual interest in the murders?

A regular at strip clubs? I had not thought of that aspect.
 
find the relative if there is one.

it is my understanding that many SK's follow and learn from other notorious SK's which means he may never pick a place he is connected to to do a killing, or like
.
So, the bridge is supposed to be not so easy to find if you didn’t really know where and what to look for...I’ve read that many places. I’ve looked at sattelite maps of the area...it is kind of wild. He went off trail and committed a double homocide. He absolutely HAD to know that forested area, and he had to have been practicing the off trail terrain for weeks leading up. I have forested property in IL that is very similar to the wooded areas of the park. The terrain changes dramatically from season to season. A heavy rain send can trees toppling, deepen ravine crevices, and throw debris of all sorts in the path. The last wind event we had in my area coupled with rains completely changed my own property. I think knowledge of the land would guarantee “local”, but do we have a trail killer that stalks other parks as well outside of that area?

I've both driven around the area, and walked the two trails. There is a lot of false or misleading information about some particulars of the case which has been shared by the media, LE, and folks here and in other forums and social media.

The terrain is tough to navigate in spots in the gorge, where it's steep and there is heavy vegetation. One big reason why the vegetation is so thick during the warmer months is the creek is a drain of sorts for the surrounding countryside, and then downstream ends up in the Wabash River. During the colder months the terrain is much easier to navigate, in news reports shortly after the murders the land owner is seen with reporters right by the crime scene, where the terrain is generally flat. Despite the walk to get out of the steep gorge, the land owner, who was in his late-70's at the time, does it with relative ease. Other parts of the gorge are much steeper and much more difficult to access on foot, even with there being trails on private lands.

The distances involved are relatively short, especially from "down the hill" to the crime scene. From the SE end of the bridge to the CS is only about 500 or so feet, albeit across Deer Creek but it's shallow right there when the water level is low, as it was on Feb. 13th, 2017. That relative distance has been confirmed by others who have been to the gorge and reported such here. From the NW end of the bridge to the CS is just under 3/8 of a mile. I've seen references to "half mile", "mile", and "miles" regarding where the victims were found, relative to the bridge, and that's simply not true.

I believe the killer had recon'd the area around the bridge on previous visits, noted the vegetation, picked out the crime scene, noted how long it took to walk the main trail to the bridge, how long it took to cross the bridge, and how long it took to walk to the CS. He needed to strike during a time of year when much of the vegetation was down/gone, and during a period of time that the one homeowner across the creek from the CS would not be home.

He needed the seclusion the gorge would offer to someone bent on killing, but also needed relatively short distances so he could conserve energy while being exposed to the chilly temps that day, the cold water of the creek, and the distance from the CS to a vehicle would be relatively short so he could get out of there in a matter of minutes. Seeing it for myself last month, and walking the main trail, indicated to me BG chose the MHB area for the reasons I've cited. I believe these facts indicate he's a young-ish killer, healthy, and in good physical shape.

I agree that he most likely scouted out other trails for his fantasy.

He had to know MHB was back in those woods, where to park, and he had to have had previous experiences there where he could observe trail walkers. I think, too, he'd trespassed before on many occasions on those private properties along the creek.

Other facts I've taken note of are the main trail was cleared of vegetation only in recent years, between the intersection of the trails and where the Freedom Bridge is now, which is about a 5 minute walk. The Hoosier Heartland Highway was opened through there in 2014, and there are no signs to indicate the MHB is located near where there's a turn off for C.R. 300/Samuel Milroy Rd./Old 25/etc. The only sign near a road indicating the bridge is back there is just off of C.R. 300, by where the girls were dropped off.

Just My Opinions (JMO)
 
I don't believe you are far off with the possibility that we have another person on the trail that is not the killer in one or both sketches. When you think about it, these are not likely sketches where the 'witness' states they saw him walking with the girls, on the bridge with the girls or at the crime scene with the girls. What likely happened is LE tried to determine who was on the trails that day and ask them who else they saw. Then by process of elimination LE might have one or two males they can't identify. I suppose someone might say they saw a man in a blue jacket. (But I was out on a bike/pedestrian/equestrian trail the other day and the only attire I remember is another bike rider wearing a bright yellow jacket and I probably saw 20-30 persons on the trail. The remainder of the others don't stand out to me and I couldn't recall them if I had to.) On top of that LE may have not gotten to a 'witness' within hours when their memory was fresh. (I believe the 2nd sketch was done 2-4 days after the murders by an ISP artist.) I know ISP 1st Sgt Holeman stated at a subsequent CrimeCon panel that the 1st sketch released was a composite developed over weeks or months from more than one 'witness'. (A sketch by committee?) He indicated it was a trial and error until they got a consensus from the 'witnesses' and LE.

I suppose at least person may have come forward and stated they saw a man in a blue jacket and that comes close to solidifying our sketch. But I do believe it is entirely possible that our sketch or sketches are not accurate enough or even of the actual killer, but just an unidentified 'witness'. We've heard LE state they are looking for the driver of a vehicle parked at the old CPS building and they seem to indicate that this is merely a person who is unaccounted for by LE. Is it the killer or just an unaccounted for witness?

Yeah, we may actually have the likeness of the killer. But there is enough of a doubt that it nags at me.

I agree with you here. I wonder about the quality of the “witnesses. Nobody there that day was told “there’s going to be a murder today so make sure you pay attention to what everybody looks like”. They are trying hard to help I know but they may not be able to.
I also think, like others have said, it’s possible no one saw him. Just my thoughts.
 
oh yeah , we have tossed around strip clubs, good chance a bartender or doorman or even one of the girls could
identify him.
mOO
 
I've both driven around the area, and walked the two trails. There is a lot of false or misleading information about some particulars of the case which has been shared by the media, LE, and folks here and in other forums and social media.

The terrain is tough to navigate in spots in the gorge, where it's steep and there is heavy vegetation. One big reason why the vegetation is so thick during the warmer months is the creek is a drain of sorts for the surrounding countryside, and then downstream ends up in the Wabash River. During the colder months the terrain is much easier to navigate, in news reports shortly after the murders the land owner is seen with reporters right by the crime scene, where the terrain is generally flat. Despite the walk to get out of the steep gorge, the land owner, who was in his late-70's at the time, does it with relative ease. Other parts of the gorge are much steeper and much more difficult to access on foot, even with there being trails on private lands.

The distances involved are relatively short, especially from "down the hill" to the crime scene. From the SE end of the bridge to the CS is only about 500 or so feet, albeit across Deer Creek but it's shallow right there when the water level is low, as it was on Feb. 13th, 2017. That relative distance has been confirmed by others who have been to the gorge and reported such here. From the NW end of the bridge to the CS is just under 3/8 of a mile. I've seen references to "half mile", "mile", and "miles" regarding where the victims were found, relative to the bridge, and that's simply not true.

I believe the killer had recon'd the area around the bridge on previous visits, noted the vegetation, picked out the crime scene, noted how long it took to walk the main trail to the bridge, how long it took to cross the bridge, and how long it took to walk to the CS. He needed to strike during a time of year when much of the vegetation was down/gone, and during a period of time that the one homeowner across the creek from the CS would not be home.

He needed the seclusion the gorge would offer to someone bent on killing, but also needed relatively short distances so he could conserve energy while being exposed to the chilly temps that day, the cold water of the creek, and the distance from the CS to a vehicle would be relatively short so he could get out of there in a matter of minutes. Seeing it for myself last month, and walking the main trail, indicated to me BG chose the MHB area for the reasons I've cited. I believe these facts indicate he's a young-ish killer, healthy, and in good physical shape.

I agree that he most likely scouted out other trails for his fantasy.

He had to know MHB was back in those woods, where to park, and he had to have had previous experiences there where he could observe trail walkers. I think, too, he'd trespassed before on many occasions on those private properties along the creek.

Other facts I've taken note of are the main trail was cleared of vegetation only in recent years, between the intersection of the trails and where the Freedom Bridge is now, which is about a 5 minute walk. The Hoosier Heartland Highway was opened through there in 2014, and there are no signs to indicate the MHB is located near where there's a turn off for C.R. 300/Samuel Milroy Rd./Old 25/etc. The only sign near a road indicating the bridge is back there is just off of C.R. 300, by where the girls were dropped off.

Just My Opinions (JMO)

This is a great post with great information. Thanks for it. It changes a bit of my perspective and kinda clears up some things for me.
 
okay so I was on a NATURE TRAIL website that has all of the nature trails ( I think just in Illinois). I will check later...I have to find it..but for instance...they have a guy there who videos and walks. all the trails and reviews them.

I thought it was interesting...I didn't know this was a thing...but of course it is a total thing cause of hiking...duh..
but it made me think some thoughts...mOO
 
I often wonder if he doesn't come here at least as an unregistered guest. Regardless of his computer skills, I do believe he does periodic internet searches to read or listen to what is stated about the murders. Isn't one of the red flags someone who exhibits an unusual interest in the murders?

A regular at strip clubs? I had not thought of that aspect.

I have always thought that he could be tech savvy bc of child *advertiser censored*.

I don't believe you are far off with the possibility that we have another person on the trail that is not the killer in one or both sketches. When you think about it, these are not likely sketches where the 'witness' states they saw him walking with the girls, on the bridge with the girls or at the crime scene with the girls. What likely happened is LE tried to determine who was on the trails that day and ask them who else they saw. Then by process of elimination LE might have one or two males they can't identify. I suppose someone might say they saw a man in a blue jacket. (But I was out on a bike/pedestrian/equestrian trail the other day and the only attire I remember is another bike rider wearing a bright yellow jacket and I probably saw 20-30 persons on the trail. The remainder of the others don't stand out to me and I couldn't recall them if I had to.) On top of that LE may have not gotten to a 'witness' within hours when their memory was fresh. (I believe the 2nd sketch was done 2-4 days after the murders by an ISP artist.) I know ISP 1st Sgt Holeman stated at a subsequent CrimeCon panel that the 1st sketch released was a composite developed over weeks or months from more than one 'witness'. (A sketch by committee?) He indicated it was a trial and error until they got a consensus from the 'witnesses' and LE.

I suppose at least person may have come forward and stated they saw a man in a blue jacket and that comes close to solidifying our sketch. But I do believe it is entirely possible that our sketch or sketches are not accurate enough or even of the actual killer, but just an unidentified 'witness'. We've heard LE state they are looking for the driver of a vehicle parked at the old CPS building and they seem to indicate that this is merely a person who is unaccounted for by LE. Is it the killer or just an unaccounted for witness?

Yeah, we may actually have the likeness of the killer. But there is enough of a doubt that it nags at me.

Thank you (and everyone) for your response(s).
 
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