Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #127

[JnRyan]

IMO, we’re putting way too much thought into why there are two victims. I think it’s as simple as there probably weren’t any single people there that day and he was able to trap them on the bridge.

Also there are often stories in the news about victims who were able to trick their captor to get away. Maybe the girls thought if they followed his instructions he wouldn’t hurt them; he may have even said that to them. Or if he showed a gun or even just said he had one, I can see them being compliant. You can’t outrun a bullet. JMO

Two victims vs. one victim. I thought about that sometime back and wondered that if this killer murdered previously maybe they were single victims. If that is true, then maybe he had to alter his MO or signature to commit the murders. In such a situation if the difference is enough LE may not be able to make the connection. For example, he may have used a knife on his previous victim(s) and here he may have shot the first one and then strangled the second victim. In my example, if LE only looks for other crimes where strangulation or gun is the means they may miss previous victims.

 

[bigdata]

New member, few thoughts, BG’s tone indicates that wasn’t his first, sounded confident, in control..I’m not familiar w/area but planning, executing takes extended time in location, curious if immediate area business transactions via plastic (burger places, 7-11, etc ) were ever reviewed for say 11AM - 2:00 PM , all cc /debit card transactions are on file w/users attributes, i.e. address , ss# etc..run that activity against Indiana DMV via SS#, result being subset of actvity by people in BGs age group, hair color etc; obviously key is card usage but certainly worth try..

 

[Deleted member 102539]

There was an interview with lead investigator Sgt. Jerry Holeman with Fox59 News in (I believe) August of 2017 where he talked about them crossing the creek. What he doesn't indicate in his remarks is if they crossed under duress or if they were fleeing at the time, so that part isn't known (investigators may know).

This is the same interview where he revealed there was more audio as yet unreleased. The video of his interview has been removed from the news article it was attached to but I think the whole thing was transcribed by one of the posters here, @Spellbound, so you should still be able to read it in the media links thread.

Even the girls crossing the creek was controversial at one time, when someone from LE said, the reenactments by YTers were wrong. It seems, nothing is clearly true or untrue. Idk, whether it must be this way.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

But then you have to ask yourself why did he go for two people that day? There was apparently a fair few people on the park /trails that day. Didn’t an apparent witness walk onto the bridge (on her own) at like 10 past 3 and saw a couple arguing? Imo for the sake of the argument we need to keep some relevance to the fact there was two victims. It speaks on his personality, a lot. Yes they may and probably was random but all that means imo is that he was confident in what he was doing. (It’s a gamble assuming that two people who you do not know are going to listen to what you say under panic/stress..fair enough you can take a certain % out of that via fear and threat to life, but assuming that happened the adrenaline would start kicking in no? They’d be very scared and looking for a way out..?imo only thing that makes sense is he handcuffed/tied them together via leg or arm)

bbm
I think:
That's exactly the reason, why it couldn't have been every Dick and Jane ("Hans und Franz" in German), who did this to the girls. BG must have had or has still today very special qualities like speed, force, quick thinking, and he likely is indeed a gambler, for dollars or for fulfilling his urgent wishes. His He is very well versed in challenges, the higher the better, and maybe, he needs them for his pure mental existence. - Speculation and IMO.

 

[MichelleBlue]

IMO One thing that has always bothered me is that he chose a place that was very visible, or that anyone seeing him would be able to view him for a long time. What I mean is the bridge is very long. The length of time that the girls were able to view him was, therefore, very long. I guess it could be irrelevant if he was confident he could kill them both quickly. However, one of the interviews Kelsi did, she said there were about 15-20 kids in various sized groups present when she dropped the girls off. Odd that he took such a chance of being viewed out in the open space of the bridge for so long. He probably would've been glancing over his shoulder to make sure no one entered the bridge/path after him. Maybe that is what caused the girls' suspicion. Thoughts?

 

[bigdata]

New member, few thoughts, BG’s tone indicates that wasn’t his first, sounded confident, in control..not familiar w/area but planning, executing takes extended time in location, curious if immediate area business transactions via plastic (burger places, 7-11, etc ) were ever reviewed for say 11AM - 2:00 PM , all cc /debit card transactions are on file w/users attributes, i.e. address , ss# etc..run that activity against Indiana DMV via SS#, result being subset of actvity by people in BGs age group, hair color etc; obviously key is card usage but certainly worth try..

bbm
I think:
That's exactly the reason, why it couldn't have been every Dick and Jane ("Hans und Franz" in German), who did this to the girls. BG must have had or has still today very special qualities like speed, force, quick thinking, and he likely is indeed a gambler, for dollars or for fulfilling his urgent wishes. His He is very well versed in challenges, the higher the better, and maybe, he needs them for his pure mental existence. - Speculation and IMO.

IMO One thing that has always bothered me is that he chose a place that was very visible, or that anyone seeing him would be able to view him for a long time. What I mean is the bridge is very long. The length of time that the girls were able to view him was, therefore, very long. I guess it could be irrelevant if he was confident he could kill them both quickly. However, one of the interviews Kelsi did, she said there were about 15-20 kids in various sized groups present when she dropped the girls off. Odd that he took such a chance of being viewed out in the open space of the bridge for so long. He probably would've been glancing over his shoulder to make sure no one entered the bridge/path after him. Maybe that is what caused the girls' suspicion. Thoughts?

<modsnip: Removed duplicate quote>

Agree..there’s so much about this that goes against the grain re: being cautious, etc, let me add some of my possibly naive observations..<modsnip: Info not supported by MSM> ..In video frame(s), BG is between girls and escape via bridge re-crossing, are we positive audio/voice recording is from him? (Too grainy to see any mouth movements)..could this voice be coming from behind them? BG doesn’t look like he’s dressed for the inevitable..looks more like outfit (casual blue jeans, shoes) worn to Thursday $1 beer
night in any college town in US..what if he is involved but not alone?..could this have started as an abduction then went bad?..

 

[Yemelyan]

Agree..there’s so much about this that goes against the grain re: being cautious, etc, let me add some of my possibly naive observations..<modsnip: Info not supported by MSM> ..In video frame(s), BG is between girls and escape via bridge re-crossing, are we positive audio/voice recording is from him? (Too grainy to see any mouth movements)..could this voice be coming from behind them? BG doesn’t look like he’s dressed for the inevitable..looks more like outfit (casual blue jeans, shoes) worn to Thursday $1 beer
night in any college town in US..what if he is involved but not alone?..could this have started as an abduction then went bad?..

<modsnip: Quoted post was modsnipped>

Are we positive the audio and video is from him? We can't be positive of anything - only LE has seen and heard it all. But they've said unequivocally that the audio is one person speaking and is the person on the bridge. See the April 2019 press conference for information on that.

 

[Yemelyan]

IMO One thing that has always bothered me is that he chose a place that was very visible, or that anyone seeing him would be able to view him for a long time. What I mean is the bridge is very long. The length of time that the girls were able to view him was, therefore, very long. I guess it could be irrelevant if he was confident he could kill them both quickly. However, one of the interviews Kelsi did, she said there were about 15-20 kids in various sized groups present when she dropped the girls off. Odd that he took such a chance of being viewed out in the open space of the bridge for so long. He probably would've been glancing over his shoulder to make sure no one entered the bridge/path after him. Maybe that is what caused the girls' suspicion. Thoughts?

I think he was hoping for three things to come together in order to commit this crime:

1. Finding a victim (in this case it turned out to be two) who was on the bridge at a time when he felt there was a lull in other walkers/people nearby.

2. He had some sort of story that he planned to pull out if he was confronted for bothering the girls. Could have been something as simple as "I didn't think two young girls should be on the dangerous bridge so I walked over to them." Could have been something more elaborate, like pretending to be an authority figure.

3. IMO he had a weapon and was counting on hustling them out of sight quickly once he was close enough to them.

 

[kkdj]

I think he was hoping for three things to come together in order to commit this crime:

1. Finding a victim (in this case it turned out to be two) who was on the bridge at a time when he felt there was a lull in other walkers/people nearby.

2. He had some sort of story that he planned to pull out if he was confronted for bothering the girls. Could have been something as simple as "I didn't think two young girls should be on the dangerous bridge so I walked over to them." Could have been something more elaborate, like pretending to be an authority figure.

3. IMO he had a weapon and was counting on hustling them out of sight quickly once he was close enough to them.

I'm still undecided about whether he and they knew each other. I mean, what a rare situation to happen if he didn't know them and didn't know they were going to be there in some point of time that day. I could be wrong, but I'm leaning towards he knew who they were and that they were going there that day.

 

[Yemelyan]

I'm still undecided about whether he and they knew each other. I mean, what a rare situation to happen if he didn't know them and didn't know they were going to be there in some point of time that day. I could be wrong, but I'm leaning towards he knew who they were and that they were going there that day.

Whether he knew them or not, it's already an incredibly rare event for a child to go out in a public area, go missing, and end up murdered.

The detective who is investigating the Holly Piirainen case (a ten year old girl who went missing and was sexually attacked and murdered) wrote that out of 10,000 children who go missing, only 1 will have been murdered by someone known OR unknown to them (he's not considering domestic violence situations in this statistic).

So if you're thinking, "if they were murdered by a stranger, that situation is too rare to be believable," it's actually equally rare whether he knew them or not.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

IMO One thing that has always bothered me is that he chose a place that was very visible, or that anyone seeing him would be able to view him for a long time. What I mean is the bridge is very long. The length of time that the girls were able to view him was, therefore, very long. I guess it could be irrelevant if he was confident he could kill them both quickly. However, one of the interviews Kelsi did, she said there were about 15-20 kids in various sized groups present when she dropped the girls off. Odd that he took such a chance of being viewed out in the open space of the bridge for so long. He probably would've been glancing over his shoulder to make sure no one entered the bridge/path after him. Maybe that is what caused the girls' suspicion. Thoughts?

BG is brazen (maybe only, when on his killing-tour?), otherwise he hadn't chosen the time of day and the well visible place on the MHB to at least begin the criminal action. IMO

 

[zencompass]

New member, few thoughts, BG’s tone indicates that wasn’t his first, sounded confident, in control..I’m not familiar w/area but planning, executing takes extended time in location, curious if immediate area business transactions via plastic (burger places, 7-11, etc ) were ever reviewed for say 11AM - 2:00 PM , all cc /debit card transactions are on file w/users attributes, i.e. address , ss# etc..run that activity against Indiana DMV via SS#, result being subset of actvity by people in BGs age group, hair color etc; obviously key is card usage but certainly worth try..

Dear @bigdata,

Thank you for sharing your valuable insights. It is meaningful and very helpful to have a new person on this thread. A new set of eyes, so to speak.

Listening to the audio, I hear a confident voice as well. I also agree with you that this wasn't B.G.'s first murder.

As far as I have read, the L.E. haven't confirmed that they checked burger places, etc. This does make great sense, especially if the perpetrator was from out of town and had been scouting that area all morning.

I'm curious to know whether you have any thoughts on if B.G. had been staying in the woods there (across the bridge and near where the girls were found) and surveying who was walking around from a vantage point on the bridge.

My thought is that he had been watching them and as they approached the far end of the bridge (near where he was), he made his move - walked onto the bridge, passed them and then turned around towards them.

I could be wrong, of course, but this makes the most sense to me because he would have been noticed more (in my opinion) being as bundled up as he was, had he "lingered" around the trails at the foot of the bridge.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

(A person on Reddit I believe crossed the bridge but didn’t want to go back over it and said it took them around a hour to get back to there car and came out like 15 minutes west) sort of tells me either 1) it isn’t easy to get back up the creek or 2) you really do need to know where your going; further implying he’s local or been local at some point. (Locals would know the way up to save walking all the way around, obviously.)

That was me. I told the same story here. Your summary is accurate other than I knew darn well how to get out of there quickly. I could have waded across Deer Creek at the crime scene area and then up the slope to County Road 300. That would have taken minutes, then turn left toward Freedom Bridge and my car. I didn't do that because I didn't feel comfortable traipsing onto Ron Logan's private property and visiting the crime scene. That was never my intention. Likewise when I finally made it back to my car I didn't visit the cemetery because I knew I'd be tempted to trudge down the hill to the crime scene, once I noted how close it was.

Frankly my curiosity was what was beyond the end of the bridge. Once I saw those two homes not far away and the big open field an easy 10-15 second dash from the end of the bridge, I was kind of in a fog for the remainder. Abby and Libby were not trapped. Not even close.

My return trek back to the car took an hour largely because there is an area called High Bridge Overlook that is seldom mentioned but incredibly soft and mushy. One step could be normal then the next one mud to my knees. That went on for a half hour. It is steeply uphill in that area. I crossed Bridge Creek on a log then decided to ascend to the overlook, largely because I knew I'd likely never be there again and I tend to push things during trips.

This is the key point: I visited one time, for 150 minutes total. I don't believe I would need to visit again, if I were a perpetrator intent on this type of attack. The layout and variables are very clear. Familiarity -- and how long it takes to acquire -- are severely overblown, IMO. Guys like this are not hanging out at home staring at four walls. Once they are scoping areas they know exactly what combo they are looking for, and once a layout clicks the scheme comes together quickly.

 

[zencompass]

I think he was hoping for three things to come together in order to commit this crime:

1. Finding a victim (in this case it turned out to be two) who was on the bridge at a time when he felt there was a lull in other walkers/people nearby.

2. He had some sort of story that he planned to pull out if he was confronted for bothering the girls. Could have been something as simple as "I didn't think two young girls should be on the dangerous bridge so I walked over to them." Could have been something more elaborate, like pretending to be an authority figure.

3. IMO he had a weapon and was counting on hustling them out of sight quickly once he was close enough to them.

Dear @Yemelyan,

And perhaps a fourth could be added to your insightful list:

IMO Most people, of all ages, would not attempt to cross that dangerous, rickety bridge (with boards missing). This, I believe, he was well aware of and counted on.

 

[bigdata]

Dear @bigdata,

Thank you for sharing your valuable insights. It is meaningful and very helpful to have a new person on this thread. A new set of eyes, so to speak.

Listening to the audio, I hear a confident voice as well. I also agree with you that this wasn't B.G.'s first murder.

As far as I have read, the L.E. haven't confirmed that they checked burger places, etc. This does make great sense, especially if the perpetrator was from out of town and had been scouting that area all morning.

I'm curious to know whether you have any thoughts on if B.G. had been staying in the woods there (across the bridge and near where the girls were found) and surveying who was walking around from a vantage point on the bridge.

My thought is that he had been watching them and as they approached the far end of the bridge (near where he was), he made his move - walked onto the bridge, passed them and then turned around towards them.

I could be wrong, of course, but this makes the most sense to me because he would have been noticed more (in my opinion) being as bundled up as he was, had he "lingered" around the trails at the foot of the bridge.

Thanks for your kind words, my thoughts re:BG may be way off but the way he kind of “lumbers” for lack of better term , I kinda question his overall fitness, not sure why, but I’m not sure he would be standing and trolling continuously in preparation for incident..he hits me as more of a person sitting (probably one of those guys who takes up whole bench and if asked to make room refuses); with that said, a main entrance or higher thorofare area would be more to his liking; + he (or they) have a much better view re:desirability from that vantage point..if asked to back up my opinion, I really can’t..just a hunch i guess

 

[bigdata]

Dear @bigdata,

Thank you for sharing your valuable insights. It is meaningful and very helpful to have a new person on this thread. A new set of eyes, so to speak.

Listening to the audio, I hear a confident voice as well. I also agree with you that this wasn't B.G.'s first murder.

As far as I have read, the L.E. haven't confirmed that they checked burger places, etc. This does make great sense, especially if the perpetrator was from out of town and had been scouting that area all morning.

I'm curious to know whether you have any thoughts on if B.G. had been staying in the woods there (across the bridge and near where the girls were found) and surveying who was walking around from a vantage point on the bridge.

My thought is that he had been watching them and as they approached the far end of the bridge (near where he was), he made his move - walked onto the bridge, passed them and then turned around towards them.

I could be wrong, of course, but this makes the most sense to me because he would have been noticed more (in my opinion) being as bundled up as he was, had he "lingered" around the trails at the foot of the bridge.

re: BG’s total time at scene, obviously most of it was spent pre-incident (possibly > hr or so) trolling, planning etc, I can see a need for a break whether that be food, cigarettes, gas maybe..with that in mind, on the chance that plastic was used for the transaction(s), the “ping” it creates is more valuable and telling than any cell tower phone ping..as I mentioned in my original post, this “transactional dna” identifies time, place, etc ..from there you run with it

 

[bigdata]

I'm still undecided about whether he and they knew each other. I mean, what a rare situation to happen if he didn't know them and didn't know they were going to be there in some point of time that day. I could be wrong, but I'm leaning towards he knew who they were and that they were going there that day.

The question of did suspect know girls and vice versa is so key to all this..that monday off for snow date not used..do we know if that was for all of school population (students, teachers, school staff, etc) or just students? ..also is it me or us there a touch of familiarity or semi-greeting when the word “guys” is used..the tone used here is similar to what i used to here in high school when we smoked and someone of authority comes thru door..”guys put’em out”

 

[zencompass]

That was me. I told the same story here. Your summary is accurate other than I knew darn well how to get out of there quickly. I could have waded across Deer Creek at the crime scene area and then up the slope to County Road 300. That would have taken minutes, then turn left toward Freedom Bridge and my car. I didn't do that because I didn't feel comfortable traipsing onto Ron Logan's private property and visiting the crime scene. That was never my intention. Likewise when I finally made it back to my car I didn't visit the cemetery because I knew I'd be tempted to trudge down the hill to the crime scene, once I noted how close it was.

Frankly my curiosity was what was beyond the end of the bridge. Once I saw those two homes not far away and the big open field an easy 10-15 second dash from the end of the bridge, I was kind of in a fog for the remainder. Abby and Libby were not trapped. Not even close.

My return trek back to the car took an hour largely because there is an area called High Bridge Overlook that is seldom mentioned but incredibly soft and mushy. One step could be normal then the next one mud to my knees. That went on for a half hour. It is steeply uphill in that area. I crossed Bridge Creek on a log then decided to ascend to the overlook, largely because I knew I'd likely never be there again and I tend to push things during trips.

This is the key point: I visited one time, for 150 minutes total. I don't believe I would need to visit again, if I were a perpetrator intent on this type of attack. The layout and variables are very clear. Familiarity -- and how long it takes to acquire -- are severely overblown, IMO. Guys like this are not hanging out at home staring at four walls. Once they are scoping areas they know exactly what combo they are looking for, and once a layout clicks the scheme comes together quickly.

Dear @Awsi Dooger,

Thank you so much for this.

My question to you is: Is the only vantage point to see across the bridge as to who is coming over (if BG was on the private property side) -only by standing on the actual bridge?

You mention "High Bridge Look Out" but that sounds like it would take him too long to get to the bridge from there.

I may be wrong that he was watching from the far side of the bridge but I do wonder.

Thanks in advance!
Zen

 

[Imvp2]

re: BG’s total time at scene, obviously most of it was spent pre-incident (possibly > hr or so) trolling, planning etc, I can see a need for a break whether that be food, cigarettes, gas maybe..with that in mind, on the chance that plastic was used for the transaction(s), the “ping” it creates is more valuable and telling than any cell tower phone ping..as I mentioned in my original post, this “transactional dna” identifies time, place, etc ..from there you run with it


The question of did suspect know girls and vice versa is so key to all this..that monday off for snow date not used..do we know if that was for all of school population (students, teachers, school staff, etc) or just students? ..also is it me or us there a touch of familiarity or semi-greeting when the word “guys” is used..the tone used here is similar to what i used to here in high school when we smoked and someone of authority comes thru door..”guys put’em out”

"Guys" is commonly used here in Indiana, no matter if you're familiar with someone or not.

 

[zencompass]

I'm still undecided about whether he and they knew each other. I mean, what a rare situation to happen if he didn't know them and didn't know they were going to be there in some point of time that day. I could be wrong, but I'm leaning towards he knew who they were and that they were going there that day.

Dear kkdj,

It's so easy to be "undecided" in this case, with such few details.

I've gone from "he knew one or both of them" to thinking lately that he is a serial killer and either knew that area well or scouted it out.

In my opinion (of late), he was "hunting" to kill a girl and he was so well-prepared that he knew he could overpower the two of them and, being opportunistic and confident, he murdered them.

If one of them started to run, he knew that all he had to do is yell "stop or I'll kill your friend". I do think he carried a gun for that purpose (to stop one girl from running or even both).

Although these are my thoughts lately, this case is so difficult to surmise.

All I do know for sure is that the L.E. have a lot of information (data and otherwise) and that's a good thing!

May today be the day!