Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #127

[news buff]

I've heard he had a gun. No proof of that.
I've heard he had a 'kill kit'. No proof of that either.
I've heard he had all kinds of stuff under his jacket. No proof here either.

Now it could be possible, though the girls did not know him, or recognize him, he may have known them.

Who knows right? It's all speculation.

I do think he was swift. I also think he was familiar with the lay of the land. I think he knew the girls were on that bridge long before they knew he was around. I also think the CS was pre-selected. I see him parking at the cemetery, walking to his observation point that he has already cased out, waiting. I see him simply accessing the bridge while the girls are on it, from either end, doesn't matter to me. I see him corralling the girls to the murder scene. I see him departing via that cemetery.

I also keep the possibility of an accomplice being involved.

It could be a random serial killing, but I have my doubts. Though, it certainly could be.

If there was no video, there would be little if any chance of ever catching him. Nearly the perfect crime. Even WITH the video, he has yet to be found.

The fact that he was so quick, in, out, and gone. Makes me think he's experienced, but not necessarily a serial killer. Either experienced, or a very meticulous planner. To the point of leaving no trace behind that could easily identify him. I think about this often. Quite a professional murderer. Or just luck? For now, I'm on the professional side of the fence. Experienced.

MOO

Don't forget the puppy.

 

[TedMac]

I cut this little part out simply to ask you this question. Do you have knowledge of a case, or cases, where the killer deliberately tried to contaminate a murder scene, in particular, by destroying DNA?

Just a curious question on my part

Not exactly destroying DNA, but Gary Ridgeway went by the outside door of bars and collected cigarette butts and planted them beside bodies of his victims in an attempt to mislead LE. He knew they would collect evidence at the crime scene and the DNA on the cigarette butts would lead them away from him.

 

[Ravenmoon]

I was listening with headphones bc it was night and my son was next to me, when they first released the new one with "guys" included. I could hear clear as day (in my own head hahaha) one of the girls scream. "Oh my God, noooooo!!!" I cant be sure that they removed/ attempted to cover that, but it is so clear to me. Wear headphones and listen. I cant unhear it. I hear the scream every time I hear that clip. In my opinion, that is what is missing and why it clearly sounds dubbed out.

I hope this is not against TOS, but my daughter heard it as well with her head phones. Once I was able to adjust the speed and volume properly, I heard it as well. Now- having said that, I know nothing about sound matrixing and how it works. So I cannot say that it is an absolute fact.I find it interesting that you heard the same words.

IMO AMOO JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

I cut this little part out simply to ask you this question. Do you have knowledge of a case, or cases, where the killer deliberately tried to contaminate a murder scene, in particular, by destroying DNA?

Just a curious question on my part

Plus an outdoor crime scene adds difficulty. There’s nothing touched such as walls or door handles, nor floors to vacuum in the hopes of collecting DNA.

 

[somequestions]

LE in this case had over 42,000 tips as of 2019. 42,000!! Realistically, if they had no holdback information to vet these tips against, they would never be able to investigate all of them. They have to have some kind of investigative strategy to yes, know which ones are BS.

Look at the murderer Oba Chandler in Florida. There were 4,000 tips in that case and the right one - with his identity - was submitted twice and LE never found it. It's only through the persistence of the woman who recognized his handwriting (who was his neighbor) that he was finally investigated. That was with 4,000 tips - not 42,000.

The Delphi case is likely similar. Somewhere in the 42,000+ tips is something with a thread that leads to his identity. It's probably from his neighbor, coworker, family member - someone who knows him. It's likely not from someone several states away watching Dr Phil and comparing facebook profiles to the sketches. JMO

They only get one shot to prosecute this offender, which they said they've kept in mind from the beginning. It can take a really long time to develop probable cause and build a case that can be prosecuted successfully. We all wish there was some slam dunk piece of information that ties his identity to the crime and there was an easy way to get it but it's likely it's just way more complicated than that.

I agree, but isn't there more to it than just holdback information? When you look at the second sketch and it looks like a 20 year old college student, it looks like LE is focusing on someone young who committed this crime.

So if LE gets a tip from someone's next door neighbor that their 50 year old neighbor looks like the man in Liberty German's video, is LE really going to investigate it if all it is centers around is that they think that person could be the bridge guy. I think LE probably has thousands of tips from people who think they have seen this person.

I think LE has opinions just like everyone here does. They have their opinion about who murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German. It looks to me like their focus is on a young man who is local to the Delphi or surrounding area. If I had not submitted a tip five times I might think differently. But I have never been contacted.

LE has opinions. So do juries. LE might get around to investigating tips about older individuals later, but I think their opinion is that a young man who is from Delphi or the surrounding area murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German. I think part of their vetting process for tips is their opinion about who they think murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German.

 

[IceIce9]

Update on the park, from Kelsi

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Not exactly destroying DNA, but Gary Ridgeway went by the outside door of bars and collected cigarette butts and planted them beside bodies of his victims in an attempt to mislead LE. He knew they would collect evidence at the crime scene and the DNA on the cigarette butts would lead them away from him.

Just this I'm assuming in case Abby/Libby.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I was listening with headphones bc it was night and my son was next to me, when they first released the new one with "guys" included. I could hear clear as day (in my own head hahaha) one of the girls scream. "Oh my God, noooooo!!!" I cant be sure that they removed/ attempted to cover that, but it is so clear to me. Wear headphones and listen. I cant unhear it. I hear the scream every time I hear that clip. In my opinion, that is what is missing and why it clearly sounds dubbed out.

I will buy headphones, immediately!

 

[Deleted member 102539]

if they were smart they would trap him on the internet...This might be the way to find him. Im not going to elaborate.
but they might be able to figure out who he is this way, You cant just hide on the internet...maybe on the dark web..but they will find him somehow some way and he cannot erase his footprint. mOO

IF he is an expert himself, they (LE/FBI) will have to jump many hurdles, I think. Hopefully they have enough super trained staff available all the time!

 

[sunshineray]

Been reading some saved links...and mulling some things over again.

"I'm speaking directly to the killer, who may be in this room," he said. "We believe you are hiding in plain sight. For more than two years, you never thought we’d shift gears to a different investigative strategy, but we have."

Carter continued.

"We likely have interviewed you or someone close to you. We know that this is about power to you. And you want to know what we know. One day, you will. Only a coward would do such a thing."

Carter also emphasized he believes the person responsible likely told someone else about the incident.

'Only a coward would do such a thing': Police release new info in Delphi murders


"different Investigative strategy" meaning...
to identify the most appropriate new line(s) of inquiry, the objective of those inquiries.

"new line of inquiry" meaning...
police are probably following a new lead, or they're considering new suspects and new questions to ask the people they've already interviewed or new people yet to be interviewed.

What occured in late 2018 into early 2019 that birthed this "different investigative strategy"? I think that holds thd key to the new sketch, the words ISP Carter spoke to the killer at April 2019 press conference AND the reason why there's been nothing official released since.

Police have stopped asking for assistance, stopped communication with the public. Have reporters stopped asking police for updates? Are their questions being ignored? Are they being told by LE we can't talk about it because it might jeopardize the case?

The silence is not making me think that LE doesn't have a clue, it's making me feel like the silent stone wall they've hit maybe has to do with "the killer who may be in this room". The killer may the reason for the silence. LE must stay silent because they're dealing with a killer who knows how to manipulate and beat the system...AJMO and conjectures.

 

[cujenn81]

I think LE probably has thousands of tips from people who think they have seen this person.

sbm for relevance -
I agree and do not envy anyone who has to wade thru that many tips. I recently skimmed over some of the tip reports included in the Israel Keyes case file (located on the FBI’s website). Tip after tip after tip said something to the effect of — “I just watched something about Israel Keyes on a TV, and I’m pretty sure I saw his white truck parked at Target one day back in November or December. The words bonded and insured were displayed on the side and I think it had a tool box on it. I don’t know the exact day. It could’ve also been October.”

And that’s it — that was the tip. There were SO many like that.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

The silence is not making me think that LE doesn't have a clue, it's making me feel like the silent stone wall they've hit maybe has to do with "the killer who may be in this room". The killer may the reason for the silence. LE must stay silent because they're dealing with a killer who knows how to manipulate and beat the system...AJMO and conjectures.

bbm
^^ This?

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Sudden plans, an out of the way trail, low volume of hikers makes it appear it was by sheer misfortune the killer happened upon the girls that afternoon.

Yet the girls presence on the bridge was communicated to others by the SC photos.

Had a reporter not snagged the photos from someone’s FB, I wonder if it would’ve been publicly released? It seems to me SC has become somewhat an elephant in the corner of the room. LE announcing the new direction with focus on a suspect as young as 18 with local connections opens various possibilities quite different than if he were a far older man. We don’t know how many SC recipients there was, if by now they’re all known to LE and did she send photos or communicate by any other app that day. I seem to recall she had well over 100 FB friends and was quite active on SM in general.

Often what’s not talked about during the several PCs, LE and family interviews is very significant in terms of protecting the integrity of the investigation, just my thoughts....

bbm
They are searching for a killer in the age of 18 to 40, who might look younger (whatever that means).

 

[news buff]

Thinking along the lines of someone who would hang out in that area. An artist looking for inspiration, a photographer, a writer, a geocache player, a history researcher, railroad enthusiast....

 

[sunshineray]

bbm
^^ This?

I have no name to give. I just have a gut feeling that was created at that April 2019 press conference and persists. LE were duped and misled. The person responsible is the killer. Without enough DNA evidence to place this killer at the crime scene LE's hands are tied, waiting for "the tip" from the person who knows. AJMO

 

[Ozoner]

I agree, but isn't there more to it than just holdback information? When you look at the second sketch and it looks like a 20 year old college student, it looks like LE is focusing on someone young who committed this crime.

So if LE gets a tip from someone's next door neighbor that their 50 year old neighbor looks like the man in Liberty German's video, is LE really going to investigate it if all it is centers around is that they think that person could be the bridge guy. I think LE probably has thousands of tips from people who think they have seen this person.

I think LE has opinions just like everyone here does. They have their opinion about who murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German. It looks to me like their focus is on a young man who is local to the Delphi or surrounding area. If I had not submitted a tip five times I might think differently. But I have never been contacted.

LE has opinions. So do juries. LE might get around to investigating tips about older individuals later, but I think their opinion is that a young man who is from Delphi or the surrounding area murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German. I think part of their vetting process for tips is their opinion about who they think murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German.

If you've submitted the same tip five times, they must have already determined that your suspect wasn't involved. I don't think that they want anyone submitting a tip more than once.

 

[stattlich1]

LE were duped and misled. The person responsible is the killer. Without enough DNA evidence to place this killer at the crime scene LE's hands are tied, waiting for "the tip" from the person who knows. AJMO

The person responsible for leading LE down the wrong path early on is the killer. I agree.

This is somewhat akin to what I was getting at previously. Experienced. A killer with speed, knowledge of investigative techniques, how to prevent/destroy CS evidence, how to manipulate CS evidence, how to manipulate LE, the courts, etc.

Of late I've been speculating former military. Experienced, quick, strong, decisive, prepared, stealthy. Now add to that a civilian career revolving around something akin to police work, the courts, or first responders.

What of those who entered the military, went active duty for 4 years, and got out at 22 years old or so, returning to the Delphi area?

 

[Ozoner]

The person responsible for leading LE down the wrong path early on is the killer. I agree.

This is somewhat akin to what I was getting at previously. Experienced. A killer with speed, knowledge of investigative techniques, how to prevent/destroy CS evidence, how to manipulate CS evidence, how to manipulate LE, the courts, etc.

Of late I've been speculating former military. Experienced, quick, strong, decisive, prepared, stealthy. Now add to that a civilian career revolving around something akin to police work, the courts, or first responders.

What of those who entered the military, went active duty for 4 years, and got out at 22 years old or so, returning to the Delphi area?

Could be. Someone with military experience—even ROTC or Jr. ROTC experience—would have known how to do reconnaissance on the area and pick out a suitable spot.

 

[Yemelyan]

I agree, but isn't there more to it than just holdback information? When you look at the second sketch and it looks like a 20 year old college student, it looks like LE is focusing on someone young who committed this crime.

So if LE gets a tip from someone's next door neighbor that their 50 year old neighbor looks like the man in Liberty German's video, is LE really going to investigate it if all it is centers around is that they think that person could be the bridge guy. I think LE probably has thousands of tips from people who think they have seen this person.

I think LE has opinions just like everyone here does. They have their opinion about who murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German. It looks to me like their focus is on a young man who is local to the Delphi or surrounding area. If I had not submitted a tip five times I might think differently. But I have never been contacted.

LE has opinions. So do juries. LE might get around to investigating tips about older individuals later, but I think their opinion is that a young man who is from Delphi or the surrounding area murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German. I think part of their vetting process for tips is their opinion about who they think murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German.

But one would hope that LE's opinion would be based on a line of actual evidence that they've developed, not an idea just plucked out of the air once other theories were exhausted. Unless I misunderstand you?

I think LE already told us this. The "intelligence developed over time" is what informed their change of direction/"opinion" about the case. Just because they didn't tell us what it was, doesn't mean it was arbitrary or not well-reasoned.

 

[somequestions]

If you've submitted the same tip five times, they must have already determined that your suspect wasn't involved. I don't think that they want anyone submitting a tip more than once.

I submitted that many times, but not just to the email tip line. I submitted to the Indiana State police and the FBI. I did it because human beings make mistakes and I thought maybe they missed it. But I agree after that many times, it is enough. The last time I think I submitted was after the 2 years anniversary because shortly after that they had the April 2019 press conference where they released the second sketch, and the person's description and age I submitted looked nothing like the second sketch. So I stopped.