Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #127

[mom2chloe]

WHY is it publicly displayed?

This is an excellent thought and should be changed. Everyone knows via phone, text and mail what the school calendar consists of so no need to advertise to everyone who shouldn’t be in the loop. MOO

 

[cds0902]

This is common practice all around, mostly for parents to be informed. It never ever fails that at least one parent will drop their child off at school and speed away, leaving a child stranded, if it is an inservice for teachers we can invite the child into the school until we can get someone one to come and get the child. Otherwise you have a child roaming around. So, from a teachers perspective we do what we think is a safe way to assure no child is brought to an empty school and dropped off.

Most Indiana schools have a large sign in front of the school with upcoming days off listed. For example, spring break and the dates, fall break, and other no school dates.

I happened to be working in a school not far from Delphi that also had an unused snow day that day. The school I was working in had “FEBRUARY 13 NO SCHOOL” on the sign on the front lawn. Anyone driving by the school in the two weeks before would have seen the sign and known it was a day off school.

s

 

[IceIce9]

This is common practice all around, mostly for parents to be informed. It never ever fails that at least one parent will drop their child off at school and speed away, leaving a child stranded, if it is an inservice for teachers we can invite the child into the school until we can get someone one to come and get the child. Otherwise you have a child roaming around. So, from a teachers perspective we do what we think is a safe way to assure no child is brought to an empty school and dropped off.

s

I know this is a common practice, however, I would like to see other notifications used rather than advertising the days off to the general public.

Don’t schools send text and email notifications to parents? AFAIK they inform parents of weather-related school delays by text, email, and recorded phone messages. Just expand this to include no school days.

 

[cds0902]

I know this is a common practice, however, I would like to see other notifications used rather than advertising the days off to the general public.

Don’t schools send text and email notifications to parents? AFAIK they inform parents of weather-related school delays by text, email, and recorded phone messages. Just expand this to include no school days.

Yes,every effort is made to alert parents to days off, snow days excluded the kids are home, but even then some kids will not know school has been cancelled and trudge to school, when you work in a depressed area kids come to school to eat, to get warm, to be in a welcoming environment. Sometimes parents have to leave their kids at home to and go on to working, hoping and praying they arrive safely at school. grandparents not upon technology are raising these kids a lot of the time. Some parents sleep in while their kids get up and go to school, I had one student who came to school everyday without help from an adult, I said to him one day “how do you know what time to come to school” he said I wait to hear the first bell ring, then I know it’s time. I guess if you haven’t lived this like I have, a solution seems easy, it’s not!

 

[JnRyan]

Regarding discussions about this killer's mental state or personality, this is an interesting article on psychopaths.
The Pros to Being a Psychopath

In the book, "Snakes in Suits" they made it clear that most psychopaths are not killers and they note that here as well. I did see something I didn't know about before and that is that most of them perform well under pressure. I've often wondered about Abigail and Liberty's killer confronting them in the open on the bridge, getting them down the hill, across the creek, committing the murders and then possibly leaving the area in short order. If this killer is a psychopath, that ability to act under pressure may have been his asset.

 

[ReadySet]

I remember going through this argument years ago in the Kyron Horman case. The suspect in the case is Kyron's stepmother. Her supporters insisted that because a school science fair was advertised on the reader board outside the school, someone was driving along and saw the sign, came into the school and kidnapped Kyron. There is no evidence this happened and stepmother remains the suspect. Her supporters blamed schools for even announcing events on school websites.

I spent hours (this was years ago) looking at school websites across the country. The majority did announce events and school calendars on their pages.

I also researched kidnappings from inside schools. I think I found two. (One is the case of Scotty Baker, who was taken and murdered by his stepmother.)

Looking just now, I still don't see any in-school kidnappings; most are when the child is on the way to school, and going home.

I know that's not what we're talking about here; but as I said, it reminds me of the insistence by some that school events not be advertised on reader boards.

Can anyone cite any cases where students were murdered by strangers because of information on reader boards?

It's a non-issue, JMO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Public schools serve the community and I don’t see how they could justify keeping their calendars “secret” from part of the community. I doubt it would be possible if they tried and probably one call to a school would let anyone know when the makeup days are.
I agree with @ReadySet, it’s a non-issue.
Just my thoughts.

 

[cujenn81]

I remember going through this argument years ago in the Kyron Horman case. The suspect in the case is Kyron's stepmother. Her supporters insisted that because a school science fair was advertised on the reader board outside the school, someone was driving along and saw the sign, came into the school and kidnapped Kyron. There is no evidence this happened and stepmother remains the suspect. Her supporters blamed schools for even announcing events on school websites.

I spent hours (this was years ago) looking at school websites across the country. The majority did announce events and school calendars on their pages.

I also researched kidnappings from inside schools. I think I found two. (One is the case of Scotty Baker, who was taken and murdered by his stepmother.)

Looking just now, I still don't see any in-school kidnappings; most are when the child is on the way to school, and going home.

I know that's not what we're talking about here; but as I said, it reminds me of the insistence by some that school events not be advertised on reader boards.

Can anyone cite any cases where students were murdered by strangers because of information on reader boards?

It's a non-issue, JMO

I totally agree it’s a non-issue. There’s a dozen different ways a predator could obtain that information. Perhaps a friend with school-aged children mentions it to him in passing. Maybe he’s married to the lunch lady. He could easily place a phone call, pretend to be a forgetful parent, and obtain the information directly from the school.

With that said—I also think it’s impossible to know the number of children (if any) who have been abducted/murdered as a result of information advertised by the school. We can’t look at cases that involve children abducted at school because we’re talking about a situation that occurred on a school holiday. The only way we could know this is if the perp confessed and flat out said—I learned the school was closed and took advantage by scoping out xyz. Not everyone is going to confess. Of those that do confess, very few are likely to go into that level of detail or spell out his thought process leading up to the crime.

tl; dr - predators can learn about school holidays any number of ways and it’s impossible to know the case history of abductions/murders that have/not occurred as a result of information advertised on school signage.

 

[JudgeJudi]

The girls were up late as I recall and they were obviously into social media.
People knew they were going to the park imo.
I can't say for sure sure but I lean towards BG planning this, just waiting for them to show up.
I could be totally wrong but I just have a hard time believing this was just a sudden opportunity.
I admit I go back go back and forth tho.

Becky said in her interview with Gray Hughes, “Well, Abby spent the night with Libby on Sunday night and they had stayed up late through the night painting their chocolate painting and messing around. We actually have a couple of videos that they had taken of each other that night, kind of goofing around. … They slept in ‘cause they were up late.”

Kelsi said, “The night before, they were actually painting in their room. After having a girls’ night, we all kind of hung out downstairs. We were watching movies with some of my friends and it was a really good night.” Kelsi said Libby had asked a few times during the week if she could take them to the bridge on snow make-up day and Kelsi told her no, to do other things. In her debunking video she said that Libby asked her to take them to the bridge earlier in the week because her father would have been working. Because she had refused several times, that’s why Kelsi finally relented on the 13th.

Unless one of the friends who visited the house on the 12th told someone else, BG had no way of knowing they would be there.

[I've previously provided links for all the above]

 

[kkdj]

Becky said in her interview with Gray Hughes, “Well, Abby spent the night with Libby on Sunday night and they had stayed up late through the night painting their chocolate painting and messing around. We actually have a couple of videos that they had taken of each other that night, kind of goofing around. … They slept in ‘cause they were up late.”

Kelsi said, “The night before, they were actually painting in their room. After having a girls’ night, we all kind of hung out downstairs. We were watching movies with some of my friends and it was a really good night.” Kelsi said Libby had asked a few times during the week if she could take them to the bridge on snow make-up day and Kelsi told her no, to do other things. In her debunking video she said that Libby asked her to take them to the bridge earlier in the week because her father would have been working. Because she had refused several times, that’s why Kelsi finally relented on the 13th.

Unless one of the friends who visited the house on the 12th told someone else, BG had no way of knowing they would be there.

[I've previously provided links for all the above]

BBM
I wonder if there is significance to this.

 

[sunshineray]

This was already discussed further back in the thread and the consensus was LE would need Kelsi, as the last person to see them and someone who shared clothing with them, to be swabbed so her DNA could be used as an elimination sample. Speculation was that DNA material, including elimination samples, from this crime might be sent to more than one lab, necessitating more than one swab (we know for a fact that it was sent to both the ISP lab and the FBI lab at Quantico and IF LE have only a partial or degraded sample, there are also many private labs, each with their own algorithms for determining DNA sequences, that may be working with LE on this case).

I'm sorry if I'm just being dense...I still don't understand why anyone's DNA taken for comparisons would need to be taken more than once. Are these DNA sequences not stored in computers and easily shared after they are initially mapped? Isn't that why LE finding matches on private genealogical sites or even LE the CODIS works so well because the DNA profiles are stored in databases?

 

[IceIce9]

Becky said in her interview with Gray Hughes, “Well, Abby spent the night with Libby on Sunday night and they had stayed up late through the night painting their chocolate painting and messing around. We actually have a couple of videos that they had taken of each other that night, kind of goofing around. … They slept in ‘cause they were up late.”

Kelsi said, “The night before, they were actually painting in their room. After having a girls’ night, we all kind of hung out downstairs. We were watching movies with some of my friends and it was a really good night.” Kelsi said Libby had asked a few times during the week if she could take them to the bridge on snow make-up day and Kelsi told her no, to do other things. In her debunking video she said that Libby asked her to take them to the bridge earlier in the week because her father would have been working. Because she had refused several times, that’s why Kelsi finally relented on the 13th.

Unless one of the friends who visited the house on the 12th told someone else, BG had no way of knowing they would be there.

[I've previously provided links for all the above]

Abby and Libby could have been planning and discussing a trip or meeting at the bridge for several hours or several days. They could have been discussing with a friend or friends, and just not mentioned it to Becky until they asked permission.

Teenagers often make plans and don’t ask permission until an appropriate time. Just because Becky wasn’t aware of the plan doesn’t mean that it was a spur of the moment decision to go

When I was a teen we would make a plan and then ask permission at an opportune time, when mom was in a good mood and likely to grant permission. Or after we had finished a chore.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Abby and Libby could have been planning and discussing a trip or meeting at the bridge for several hours or several days. They could have been discussing with a friend or friends, and just not mentioned it to Becky until they asked permission.

Teenagers often make plans and don’t ask permission until an appropriate time. Just because Becky wasn’t aware of the plan doesn’t mean that it was a spur of the moment decision to go

Becky's comment was only to confirm that the girls had stayed up late. The permission aspect hadn't arisen. In fact on the 13th Becky told the girls that if they did some filing for her, she would take them shopping later that day as Libby was just getting interested in shopping.

Kelsi's comment confirms that the girls had indeed wanted to go to the bridge and Libby had asked her several times during the week if she would drive them there. The girls had to rely on transport which Libby's father would normally agree to, however he was going to be working and didn't know what his plans would be for snow day. That's why Libby asked Kelsi. Libby had visited the bridge many times and assumed that permission would be given if she could arrange transport to and from the bridge.

 

[stattlich1]

Kelsi said Libby had asked a few times during the week if she could take them to the bridge on snow make-up day and Kelsi told her no, to do other things. In her debunking video she said that Libby asked her to take them to the bridge earlier in the week because her father would have been working. Because she had refused several times, that’s why Kelsi finally relented on the 13th.

Unless one of the friends who visited the house on the 12th told someone else, BG had no way of knowing they would be there.

With all due respect, the information contained in the above bolded statements, if accurate, for me, is direct evidence of planning. The girls were planning on being at that bridge for a reason.

It's absolutely possible, IMO, even probable, that others knew the girls would be, intended to be, or had plans to be at that bridge on the 13th.

It's my opinion that bridge was, and likely remains, a local hangout for teens.

Also, if asking earlier in the week, how would the girls know the weather conditions for that day? It just seems odd to me. In that area, in February, it could just as easily be a high temperature of 25 degrees, as it could be a high temperature of 45 or more.

Either the girls were watching the weather, knowing it was going to be rather balmy, or they simply weren't concerned if it was cold, windy, and overcast.

I like to metal detect. I've been out recently when it's 35 and windy. That's cold. Maybe the girls were used to being out in cold for several hours, but I doubt it.

My main point here is this. If they were asking earlier in the week to go to that bridge, I think they had a plan, and a reason to want to be there. It was not a spur of the moment idea.

MOO

 

[Yemelyan]

I'm sorry if I'm just being dense...I still don't understand why anyone's DNA taken for comparisons would need to be taken more than once. Are these DNA sequences not stored in computers and easily shared after they are initially mapped? Isn't that why LE finding matches on private genealogical sites or even LE the CODIS works so well because the DNA profiles are stored in databases?

If you had a cooperative person contributing why would you not just send a full swab? She may have been swabbed once near the beginning of the case and then twice more months later if they started contracting with other labs to give them more information. Certain private labs use different loci that are not in, for example CODIS, because they use their own proprietary algorithms to work with partial samples. Some use SNPs instead of STRs, etc. Or, she may have been swabbed three times at the beginning so LE could get three different labs working quickly on the same information.

Also, contributors of elimination samples (unlike suspected perpetrators) have different rules for how their DNA information can be stored because these people are not suspects. So it's not as simple as just pulling her information out of a database. Just MOO.

 

[Peppery]

With all due respect, the information contained in the above bolded statements, if accurate, for me, is direct evidence of planning. The girls were planning on being at that bridge for a reason.

It's absolutely possible, IMO, even probable, that others knew the girls would be, intended to be, or had plans to be at that bridge on the 13th.

It's my opinion that bridge was, and likely remains, a local hangout for teens.

Also, if asking earlier in the week, how would the girls know the weather conditions for that day? It just seems odd to me. In that area, in February, it could just as easily be a high temperature of 25 degrees, as it could be a high temperature of 45 or more.

Either the girls were watching the weather, knowing it was going to be rather balmy, or they simply weren't concerned if it was cold, windy, and overcast.

I like to metal detect. I've been out recently when it's 35 and windy. That's cold. Maybe the girls were used to being out in cold for several hours, but I doubt it.

My main point here is this. If they were asking earlier in the week to go to that bridge, I think they had a plan, and a reason to want to be there. It was not a spur of the moment idea.

MOO

There were multiple threads discussing geocaching and at the time there was a very popular cartoon “GO” game, but it’s been banned from discussion. Off the top of my head it may have been discussed around summer 2017 but that’s just a guess if you wanted to try to find the threads.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

With all due respect, the information contained in the above bolded statements, if accurate, for me, is direct evidence of planning. The girls were planning on being at that bridge for a reason.

It's absolutely possible, IMO, even probable, that others knew the girls would be, intended to be, or had plans to be at that bridge on the 13th.

It's my opinion that bridge was, and likely remains, a local hangout for teens.

Also, if asking earlier in the week, how would the girls know the weather conditions for that day? It just seems odd to me. In that area, in February, it could just as easily be a high temperature of 25 degrees, as it could be a high temperature of 45 or more.

Either the girls were watching the weather, knowing it was going to be rather balmy, or they simply weren't concerned if it was cold, windy, and overcast.

I like to metal detect. I've been out recently when it's 35 and windy. That's cold. Maybe the girls were used to being out in cold for several hours, but I doubt it.

My main point here is this. If they were asking earlier in the week to go to that bridge, I think they had a plan, and a reason to want to be there. It was not a spur of the moment idea.

MOO

I understand and respect what you’re saying. In my view, the girls could have planned a trip to the trails on that snow day for six months prior, but because they could not drive themselves and they were totally dependent on someone else taking them there, that trip was not happening until someone agreed to take them. To me, that’s not planning, that’s hoping, like we all did at that age...”I hope I can go to the mall. I hope I can go to the movies; or to the trails”.
By all accounts they didn’t find that ride until shortly before they arrived at the trails that day or they wouldn’t have been there at all.
Just my thoughts.

 

[sunshineray]

If you had a cooperative person contributing why would you not just send a full swab? She may have been swabbed once near the beginning of the case and then twice more months later if they started contracting with other labs to give them more information. Certain private labs use different loci that are not in, for example CODIS, because they use their own proprietary algorithms to work with partial samples. Some use SNPs instead of STRs, etc. Or, she may have been swabbed three times at the beginning so LE could get three different labs working quickly on the same information.

Also, contributors of elimination samples (unlike suspected perpetrators) have different rules for how their DNA information can be stored because these people are not suspects. So it's not as simple as just pulling her information out of a database. Just MOO.

Thank you for that further explanation, it helped, especially that last paragraph. I never even considered that.

 

[Yemelyan]

Thank you for that further explanation, it helped, especially that last paragraph. I never even considered that.

Yes, and to that point I was reading recently about a murder case that was solved with a voluntary DNA sweep. Participants in that sweep were told that their samples would not be retained (if not a match, obviously!). One man eventually sued because his sample was illegally kept longer. There was more to it in that particular case but you can see the process at work. Samples/DNA information from non-suspects are retained differently from those of POIs. That's why I said if KG was a cooperative contributor, they may have decided it made more sense to take additional swabs for different labs/purposes.

 

[drama_farmer]

In this day and age, I feel certain if the girls saw a school employee molesting a student, they would report same to their parents quickly.

And maybe taken a photo or video and share to Snapchat. Imo