Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #127

[Deleted member 102539]

I kinda of agree...I have more reasons for them to be pushing the second sketch
...the worse part is that the sketches only created that much chaos and confusion and that's it... no suspect would be brought to this case based on a sketch ......and LE is telling us that the video that the girls so bravely captured is basically useless ?
yes..cause LE can not even put a clear profile for the suspect from the video and audio.. he could be just anyone ....they tell you to focus on his gait instead ??? he was walking on a broken bridge ...and they tell you to focus on his gait...that's how desperate they seem

It was not for nothing, IMO, that LE said, the viewer should pay attention to BG's mannerisms (except the gait):
Google says:
These are referred to as mannerisms. Mannerisms are particularly common in patients with schizophrenia. Compulsions are repetitive, often ritualistic actions carried out in response to an obsession, to reduce anxiety, or to avoid a future dreaded outcome.
-.-
A habitual or characteristic manner, mode, or way of doing something; distinctive quality or style, as in behavior or speech: He has an annoying mannerism of tapping his fingers while he talks. They copied his literary mannerisms but always lacked his ebullience.
-.-
Mannerisms are types of physical actions, reactions, and gestures that are customary and habitual in an individual. For instance, have you ever known a person that bites into a favorite food, smacks their lips and always says something like "Man, that's fine eating." This would be considered a mannerism. Mannerisms are basically habitual behaviors that a person has that has grown from their upbringing and environment. Mannerisms tend to be unique to each individual although sometimes family members can share common mannerisms.
-.-
Identifying psychological states behind mannerisms can provide insight into the behavior of individuals and make communication more effective. Mannerisms are micro-behaviors and lend insight into the mental attitudes of a person. The ability to identify psychological states can be used for more effective work in fields that rely on communication.
-.-
.... and so on .....

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I am still thinking about Abby and Libby and this case daily even though I haven’t been able to keep up with the threads here lately.

Thank you to those of you who post day after day, doing what you can to keep this case active so that hopefully the right pair of eyes recognizes the murderer responsible for this and comes forward to say so.

Recently, I spent time working on a 1000 piece puzzle and oddly enough, it may have put some of the many challenges that LE faces about this case into perspective for me. They have used the puzzle analogy before and it makes so much sense to me more than ever now.

I ended up getting stymied in certain sections of the puzzle I was working on because I was very adamant that the pieces had to fit where they appeared to go based on the size, colours or the patterns they seemed to belong with. I ended up being wrong several times because of my pre-conceived notion of where things had to fit based on my first impressions.

I had to keep going back to the puzzle with fresh eyes in order to chip away at it and then finally put it all together. I had the picture of the puzzle in front of me the entire time, I practically had it memorized, and it still took ‘process of elimination’ over and over again until I finally got all of the pieces to fit in the right places.

LE now has over 50,000 tips (likely an Indiana state record -JMO), hundreds of interviews and likely hundreds (if not thousands) of pieces of evidence and they didn’t know how many of them (if any) actually belonged to the investigation or where they all fit in initially, based on their first impressions.

They have systematically chipped away at analyzing all of it for the past almost four years, first by establishing the crime scene(s), identifying what are and are not actually valid pieces of evidence in a massive publicly visited outdoor crime scene, analyzing DNA, interviewing family, friends, co-workers, and ‘witnesses’ and eliminating suspects…..not to mention the hundreds upon hundreds of hours of video they must have also viewed from many places that day, week or even month, in minute detail, frame-by-frame.

That is a monumental task, to say the least.

Sure they had loads of resources, but I can guarantee that that every single piece of evidence had to be examined dozens of times by dozens of people in order to establish that it was, in fact, something that was significant to be regarded as evidence in reference to this double homicide.

Libby’s video and audio alone must have also consumed thousands of hours being examined by the top professionals as well, not to mention that LE has acknowledged that they have more that they have not released and we have no idea exactly how much there is or who or what else is on it from that day.

I imagine that Libby also took other pictures that we have not seen from that day, and they must have been analyzed under a very fine microscope hundreds of times by dozens of people as well.

All of this, amongst weeding out the ‘red herrings’, and attempts to follow up on the ‘I saw this guy in a blue jacket …’ type tips that they must have received over the years, not to mention the time it takes to document such follow-up.

I am also keeping in mind that we only know a very small part of what happened based on what has been released, so there is much, much more that we don’t even have an inkling about that they surely are spending a lot of investigation time on very, very quietly.

3 years and 10 months have gone by since Abby and Libby were found, and I know that many people are losing patience with the investigation because it is believed that LE should release more information to get that once ‘last piece of the puzzle’….that one, breaking the case wide open, tip.

It must crush LE every time they think they may have it, and then realize they actually don’t.

From what they have said, my impression is that investigators seem to know that ‘missing piece’ is out there, and whether it comes in the form of an admission from someone, current or future advances in DNA, or by unearthing other photographic proof that he was there that day….if it exists, it will be found.

It is so darn hard to be patient when we all want justice and to see this disgusting murderer on the front page of newspapers nation-wide with the word ‘ARRESTED’ above his face so that he won’t be able to hide under the title ‘BG’ anymore. We will all know his name one day and we will see his face and he won't be able to hide in a pixelated video anymore.

Don’t give up…..I still believe that day is coming.
This case is not cold.

All JMO

Thank you for your top distribution! We need some optimism.

 

[sandy_80]

my feeling is we are looking for the Evansdale killer. I think even the names of the victims are even so similar.
and the dates too...

two very specific sets of victimologies and killing areas,
2 victims
young girls together
rural setting
daytime

both cases close by geographically

he has a specific fantasy
that has escalated
hence the showy display.

although I think he may have wanted to get them into a vehicle but it didn't work out for him.
if it had he might have moved the girls some miles away to create distance.

mOO

I respectfully disagree ...
the Evansdale are much younger and thus the killer is most probably a peado .....
in our case..I think that the victim were not chosen for age but just for conveniently being there ...
if true like we heard that libby was the target and that he thought her to be older ( I thought she looked 17 OR 18 first ) ...so our bg is not necessary a peado
if he was indeed a poeado.. then Abby would be the main target cause she is very small

just my two cents...who really knows

 

[sandy_80]

It was not for nothing, IMO, that LE said, the viewer should pay attention to BG's mannerisms (except the gait):
Google says:
These are referred to as mannerisms. Mannerisms are particularly common in patients with schizophrenia. Compulsions are repetitive, often ritualistic actions carried out in response to an obsession, to reduce anxiety, or to avoid a future dreaded outcome.
-.-
A habitual or characteristic manner, mode, or way of doing something; distinctive quality or style, as in behavior or speech: He has an annoying mannerism of tapping his fingers while he talks. They copied his literary mannerisms but always lacked his ebullience.
-.-
Mannerisms are types of physical actions, reactions, and gestures that are customary and habitual in an individual. For instance, have you ever known a person that bites into a favorite food, smacks their lips and always says something like "Man, that's fine eating." This would be considered a mannerism. Mannerisms are basically habitual behaviors that a person has that has grown from their upbringing and environment. Mannerisms tend to be unique to each individual although sometimes family members can share common mannerisms.
-.-
Identifying psychological states behind mannerisms can provide insight into the behavior of individuals and make communication more effective. Mannerisms are micro-behaviors and lend insight into the mental attitudes of a person. The ability to identify psychological states can be used for more effective work in fields that rely on communication.
-.-
.... and so on .....

that's all pretty cool..but do we have some of that in the ridiculously short clip we see ?

 

[MistyWaters]

that's all pretty cool..but do we have some of that in the ridiculously short clip we see ?

I don’t think the clip was ever intended to be directed to strangers who personally don’t know a single person with any association to Delphi on Feb 13th, 2017.

But for locals or others who might, yeah I think the clip could’ve twigged a “yeah that could be him” which was the purpose of LE releasing it. The clip isn’t going to be the single piece of evidence used to prosecute and LE know that. That no arrest has yet been made is not the fault of the clip.

JMO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

It was not for nothing, IMO, that LE said, the viewer should pay attention to BG's mannerisms (except the gait):
Google says:
These are referred to as mannerisms. Mannerisms are particularly common in patients with schizophrenia. Compulsions are repetitive, often ritualistic actions carried out in response to an obsession, to reduce anxiety, or to avoid a future dreaded outcome.
-.-
A habitual or characteristic manner, mode, or way of doing something; distinctive quality or style, as in behavior or speech: He has an annoying mannerism of tapping his fingers while he talks. They copied his literary mannerisms but always lacked his ebullience.
-.-
Mannerisms are types of physical actions, reactions, and gestures that are customary and habitual in an individual. For instance, have you ever known a person that bites into a favorite food, smacks their lips and always says something like "Man, that's fine eating." This would be considered a mannerism. Mannerisms are basically habitual behaviors that a person has that has grown from their upbringing and environment. Mannerisms tend to be unique to each individual although sometimes family members can share common mannerisms.
-.-
Identifying psychological states behind mannerisms can provide insight into the behavior of individuals and make communication more effective. Mannerisms are micro-behaviors and lend insight into the mental attitudes of a person. The ability to identify psychological states can be used for more effective work in fields that rely on communication.
-.-
.... and so on .....

LE did ask the public to pay attention to BG’s mannerisms in, what was correctly described by @sandy_80, as a ridiculously short. Everybody has mannerisms, not just people with psychological problems. My thinking at the time was LE was showing us the clip hoping for an identification not a diagnosis.
In my opinion, if no one in the area recognized the still photo, this tiny clip wasn’t going to help.
Just my thoughts.

 

[Yemelyan]

"However, [former Carroll County prosecutor Robert] Ives raised the possibility that elements of the scene had been staged in an attempt to trick investigators by sending them down a false path."...

"Retired FBI profiler Mary Ellen O'Toole, who has worked on cases such as the Green River Killer...

On staging, she explained: 'staging tends to be done most often by somebody who knows the victims'."

Former prosecutor in unsolved Delphi murders of two teens says they had signature elements | Daily Mail Online

Staging the crime scene is most often done by someone who know the victim(s). Per the April 2019 press conference, killer never thought LE would change their investigative strategy and the killer wanted to know what LE knows.

All of those sound to me like the former Carroll County prosecutor, LE investigators and former LE investigative consultants feel the crime scene was staged by a manipulative killer, the killer was locally known and the killer most likely knew the victims somehow.

I really hate to say this but I think this is a cold case, a stand off of sorts. LE may even know who's responsible for killing Abby and Libby but I don't feel they can prove it in a court of law. I also think whomever may have known who is responsible has either fled the area in fear or has passed away.

LE very obviously doesn't want to share anymore information with the public. If by chance a tip does produce a person willing to testify in a meaningful way, LE will need every bit of evidence as pristine as the day it was left at the scene. AJMO

If someone knows they should speak it.

This was something discussed here at the time the Daily Mail article you quoted first came out, but their quotes from Robert Ives were taken verbatim from other interviews with him (specifically what he said in the Down the Hill podcast), and he didn't use the term staging at all in the interviews that the Daily Mail borrowed from. He talked about the quantity and strange nature of the physical evidence and the possibility of signatures. Staging (which is something different altogether) was the Daily Mail's addition or interpretation, if you will. So I'd say that staging is an unconfirmed rumor about the Delphi case and shouldn't be taken as a fact IMO.

 

[stattlich1]

For me, in this case, I have to go with BG being the 2nd sketch guy, NOT the first, because that is what LE tells me.

That being said, I have to throw out my preconceived ideas of what the guy on the bridge looks like, you know, those images akin to sketch #1. They just aren't true. BG is NOT the older guy, overweight, with that look compared in photos to some POI's early on.

BG is the new sketch guy, younger, strong, athletic. I still see a killer familiar with the area, having planned the entire killing, preparing in advance, to include the murder site. I see him parking in that cemetery, meandering down that hill to the CS, checking things there, maybe leaving some needed items there too.

Then he goes to his perch across the creek to await. A perch that gives him a view of the bridge, and the path leading up to it. When the girls are far enough across the bridge, he moves in to action.

From the CS, he simply walks up that hill to the cemetery, gets in his car, and drives off.

I don't see a hill from the CS to the cemetery that would be terribly difficult to traverse.

As to his 'perch', I speculate he either awaited there for specifically these two girls to arrive, knowing they were on their way, OR he had waited there time and again for the right victim(s) to come by, and these two girls were, as said before, in the wrong place at the wrong time.

That's my opinion

 

[Sillybilly]

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[drama_farmer]

Regarding "mannerisms," just wanted to share that my first impression of BG, with his hands positioned where they were, and the way he seems to pivot at the end of the video/animated gif is that he was in the process of pulling up his pants while in the process of walking. I've seen this particular motion countless numbers of times, as my ex-husband had a habit of buying pants that "fit" the circumference of his hips, not his belly/waist. All MOO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

For me, in this case, I have to go with BG being the 2nd sketch guy, NOT the first, because that is what LE tells me.

That being said, I have to throw out my preconceived ideas of what the guy on the bridge looks like, you know, those images akin to sketch #1. They just aren't true. BG is NOT the older guy, overweight, with that look compared in photos to some POI's early on.

BG is the new sketch guy, younger, strong, athletic. I still see a killer familiar with the area, having planned the entire killing, preparing in advance, to include the murder site. I see him parking in that cemetery, meandering down that hill to the CS, checking things there, maybe leaving some needed items there too.

Then he goes to his perch across the creek to await. A perch that gives him a view of the bridge, and the path leading up to it. When the girls are far enough across the bridge, he moves in to action.

From the CS, he simply walks up that hill to the cemetery, gets in his car, and drives off.

I don't see a hill from the CS to the cemetery that would be terribly difficult to traverse.

As to his 'perch', I speculate he either awaited there for specifically these two girls to arrive, knowing they were on their way, OR he had waited there time and again for the right victim(s) to come by, and these two girls were, as said before, in the wrong place at the wrong time.

That's my opinion

I pretty much agree with everything you’ve got here, but I’ll have to say after seeing how steep the slope is from the crime scene to the cemetery it made me wonder a bit. I do think however the cemetery is the most likely route out of there, and if that is the case, the killer is definitely on the younger side.
Just my thoughts.

 

[cujenn81]

It was not for nothing, IMO, that LE said, the viewer should pay attention to BG's mannerisms (except the gait):
Google says:
These are referred to as mannerisms. Mannerisms are particularly common in patients with schizophrenia. Compulsions are repetitive, often ritualistic actions carried out in response to an obsession, to reduce anxiety, or to avoid a future dreaded outcome.
-.-
A habitual or characteristic manner, mode, or way of doing something; distinctive quality or style, as in behavior or speech: He has an annoying mannerism of tapping his fingers while he talks. They copied his literary mannerisms but always lacked his ebullience.
-.-
Mannerisms are types of physical actions, reactions, and gestures that are customary and habitual in an individual. For instance, have you ever known a person that bites into a favorite food, smacks their lips and always says something like "Man, that's fine eating." This would be considered a mannerism. Mannerisms are basically habitual behaviors that a person has that has grown from their upbringing and environment. Mannerisms tend to be unique to each individual although sometimes family members can share common mannerisms.
-.-
Identifying psychological states behind mannerisms can provide insight into the behavior of individuals and make communication more effective. Mannerisms are micro-behaviors and lend insight into the mental attitudes of a person. The ability to identify psychological states can be used for more effective work in fields that rely on communication.
-.-
.... and so on .....

I agree. Mannerisms can be very telling — as we all have unique ways of doing certain things.

For example: I had a friend back in high school (let’s call her Cathy—not her real name) who used to hold her steering wheel in a very particular way. Even though I haven’t seen Cathy in roughly eighteen years... if you showed me nothing more than one hand on a steering wheel, I would still instantly know it was hers.

The blurry video makes things a bit more difficult. But when coupled with the audio, I’m confident that he can be ID’ed if the right person sees/hears them.

 

[BNA]

"However, [former Carroll County prosecutor Robert] Ives raised the possibility that elements of the scene had been staged in an attempt to trick investigators by sending them down a false path."...

"Retired FBI profiler Mary Ellen O'Toole, who has worked on cases such as the Green River Killer...

On staging, she explained: 'staging tends to be done most often by somebody who knows the victims'."

Former prosecutor in unsolved Delphi murders of two teens says they had signature elements | Daily Mail Online

Staging the crime scene is most often done by someone who know the victim(s). Per the April 2019 press conference, killer never thought LE would change their investigative strategy and the killer wanted to know what LE knows.

All of those sound to me like the former Carroll County prosecutor, LE investigators and former LE investigative consultants feel the crime scene was staged by a manipulative killer, the killer was locally known and the killer most likely knew the victims somehow.

I really hate to say this but I think this is a cold case, a stand off of sorts. LE may even know who's responsible for killing Abby and Libby but I don't feel they can prove it in a court of law. I also think whomever may have known who is responsible has either fled the area in fear or has passed away.

LE very obviously doesn't want to share anymore information with the public. If by chance a tip does produce a person willing to testify in a meaningful way, LE will need every bit of evidence as pristine as the day it was left at the scene. AJMO

If someone knows they should speak it.

I have felt for some months now that it all comes down to some things we are not allowed to talk about here.

DC at one point said that when the arrest is made and explained, folks are gonna say (paraphrasing) "Yeah, that makes sense."

So, search for a theory of this crime that actually makes sense immediately to all concerned....prolly a theory that closely matches commonly known criminal motivations all thru human history: Greed, Lust, Jealousy, etc.

 

[news buff]

I kinda of agree...I have more reasons for them to be pushing the second sketch
...the worse part is that the sketches only created that much chaos and confusion and that's it... no suspect would be brought to this case based on a sketch ......and LE is telling us that the video that the girls so bravely captured is basically useless ?
yes..cause LE can not even put a clear profile for the suspect from the video and audio.. he could be just anyone ....they tell you to focus on his gait instead ??? he was walking on a broken bridge ...and they tell you to focus on his gait...that's how desperate they seem

Maybe there were two? One on the bridge and one down the hill. One younger and one older.

 

[gregjrichards]

Thank you to all of you for continuing to post and discuss Abigail and Liberty’s case. I continue to hope and pray every day that this monster is caught. I have not given up hope that will happen even though it is difficult to feel optimistic after such a long period has passed. It has been a concern of mine that he may contract the virus and escape arrest but hopefully that won’t happen.

I can’t imagine how horrendous it must be for the girl’s families to have the constant worry that he will reoffend and/or escape arrest. It is great that Abigail and Liberty’s Memorial Park is due to open early next year as it will be a wonderful tribute to them. I hope Liberty’s Grandma’s cancer treatment is working.

 

[Deathsgrandaughter]

I agree. Mannerisms can be very telling — as we all have unique ways of doing certain things.

For example: I had a friend back in high school (let’s call her Cathy—not her real name) who used to hold her steering wheel in a very particular way. Even though I haven’t seen Cathy in roughly eighteen years... if you showed me nothing more than one hand on a steering wheel, I would still instantly know it was hers.

The blurry video makes things a bit more difficult. But when coupled with the audio, I’m confident that he can be ID’ed if the right person sees/hears them.

I once recognised my then new boyfriend by the hunch of his shoulders as he walked. I was on top of the city walls, not close enough to make out more than body shape, and did not expect to see him below on the pavement. I had not realised how distinctive (and awful!) his posture was till I recognised him. So I have always hoped that BG's gait will prove as distictive for the right person.

And, Greg, how lovely to see you on here.

Edited because distinctive is missing its N. But it exists in the writing box, and refuses to appear in the forum post. Even rewriting the whole word does not correct it. No idea why.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

that's all pretty cool..but do we have some of that in the ridiculously short clip we see ?

IF it is something like mannerism, I only saw BG turning his head to his left for a second or two and opening his mouth. I don't know, what else might be "his mannerisms".
Other members didn't even see that, no wonder.
ETA: LE must have seen something re "mannerisms", if they mentioned it; I'm sure.

 

[sunshineray]

This was something discussed here at the time the Daily Mail article you quoted first came out, but their quotes from Robert Ives were taken verbatim from other interviews with him (specifically what he said in the Down the Hill podcast), and he didn't use the term staging at all in the interviews that the Daily Mail borrowed from. He talked about the quantity and strange nature of the physical evidence and the possibility of signatures. Staging (which is something different altogether) was the Daily Mail's addition or interpretation, if you will. So I'd say that staging is an unconfirmed rumor about the Delphi case and shouldn't be taken as a fact IMO.

Thank you, I didn't realize Ives never used the word "staged".

It does make a difference. Signatures are more of a window into the killers mind for investigators while staging is deception to throw off investigations.

 

[sunshineray]

IF it is something like mannerism, I only saw BG turning his head to his left for a second or two and opening his mouth. I don't know, what else might be "his mannerisms".
Other members didn't even see that, no wonder.
ETA: LE must have seen something re "mannerisms", if they mentioned it; I'm sure.

I think he was talking to himself, JMO.

 

[minazoe]

also the way his arms and hands fall as he moves, the way he places his hands when he walks..and his gait ( what we can see ).mOO