Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #127

[Yemelyan]

Partial transcript from April , 2019 Presser , DC Speaking:

Directly to the Killer, who may be in this room: We believe you were hiding in plain sight. For more than 2 years, you never thought we would shift gears to a different investigative strategy. But we have. Will you likely have interviewed you or someone close to you. We know this is about power to you, and you want to know what we know. And one day, you will. A question to you: What will those closest to you think of you when they find out that you brutally murdered two little girls? Two children! Only a coward would do such a thing. We are confident that you have told someone what you have done, or at the very least they know because of how different you are since the murders.

We try so hard to understand how a person could do something like this to two children. I recently watched a movie called ‘The Shack’, and there’s also a book that talks so well about evil, about death, and about eternity.

To the murderer: I believe you have just a little bit of a conscience left. And I can assure you that how you left them in that woods is not, IS NOT, what they are experiencing today. To the family: I hope that you all [the media] will give them some time, because we’re going to be asking that there is no media inquiry, or no media response for at least the next two weeks, and I hope you understand why.


Does anyone want to take parts of this section of the PC and give their opinions on it?

I know we have discussed before..but maybe by putting the portion that was directed to the killer..it could open up conversations about a possible profile, or some other message we are potentially missing?

Some of the things that stand out to me...
1)
Directly to the Killer, who may be in this room: We believe you were hiding in plain sight.

Question- was he in the room? DC seemed to feel certain that if he was NOT in the room, he certainly WAS watching.

2)
For more than 2 years, you never thought we would shift gears to a different investigative strategy. But we have.

Question~Any opinions on why the strategy changed?

3)
Will you likely have interviewed you or someone close to you.

Question~ Is this signifying that they have someone particular in their sights? Or at least narrowed this down to a handful of suspects?

4)
We know this is about power to you

Question~ How do you interpret this statement?

5)
A question to you: What will those closest to you think of you when they find out that you brutally murdered two little girls?

Question~ Does this hint at the fact that this person is closely engaged with children professionally, or that they even have children of their own? Is it alluding to the fact that this individual is a trusted person that will possibly feel shamed at the fact that he kills children?

6)
Only a coward would do such a thing.

Question~ (I agree) Is he trying to piss the killer off?

7)
We are confident that you have told someone what you have done, or at the very least they know because of how different you are since the murders.

Question~
Totally open to what others think in regards to this?

8)

To the murderer: I believe you have just a little bit of a conscience left. And I can assure you that how you left them in that woods is not, IS NOT, what they are experiencing today.

Question~

Was this just a ploy to try to convince the killer he may have the opportunity at redemption, or do you feel this is likely said because there is reason to believe that this individual is active within the religious community.

The shack reference..if anyone wants to touch on it- I am open..just feel that it has been explained as being DC's own belief / faith being expressed.

I would really like to hear anyone's thoughts on parts or all of this section of PC.

AMOO JMO MOO

I think it's hard to draw many definite conclusions simply because Carter went off script, both literally and figuratively, for at least part of his remarks. We know this because the ISP released the information he was supposed to say and several things were different or omitted.

However, I think points 4-7 are most interesting because it's the closest LE has come to giving us a motive in the case. If it was about power to the offender, the conclusion I personally draw is that it was a sexually motivated crime. This fits with other known elements of the case, statistically speaking. I think that Carter's emphasis of "two little girls" is significant - they may think that they are dealing with someone who chose the victims opportunistically as opposed to because of a particular attraction to girls their age. IMO we see the FBI profilers' input in planting the seed that someone close to the killer may have guessed his involvement.

I think Carter's comments about the murderer having a bit of conscience left and his reflections on The Shack represent Carter's personal worldview about themes of forgiveness and redemption. He actually already told us this in a separate interview where he was questioned about it, so I'll take him at his word on that and disregard it as having any coded message with regard to the case.

 

[Skully]

1) I would not have let him know that they don't know who he is or that there is nothing pointing to him openly. A Of course he is watching, it's all about him and his power and the attention he is getting.

2) skipping this one.

3) goes back to 1

4) It's always about power

5) What is the incentive to come in if you are telling him that the inmates are going to kill him. He knows they hate rapist and kid killers.

6) Probably

7) Scare tactic. You know the saying, if two people know a secret, then one person has to die to keep it a secret...well something like that.

8) The problem with thinking a person like this has a conscience is that they don't. They are so depraved at this point, there is no remorse or empathy. They are not wired like us. Some thing inside of them is missing. They may know it was wrong, but they are compelled to do it, or it excites them, it doesn't matter, they aren't crying over it at night. JMO

 

[Skully]

I think it's hard to draw many definite conclusions simply because Carter went off script, both literally and figuratively, for at least part of his remarks. We know this because the ISP released the information he was supposed to say and several things were different or omitted.

However, I think points 4-7 are most interesting because it's the closest LE has come to giving us a motive in the case. If it was about power to the offender, the conclusion I personally draw is that it was a sexually motivated crime. This fits with other known elements of the case, statistically speaking. I think that Carter's emphasis of "two little girls" is significant - they may think that they are dealing with someone who chose the victims opportunistically as opposed to because of a particular attraction to girls their age. IMO we see the FBI profilers' input in planting the seed that someone close to the killer may have guessed his involvement.

I think Carter's comments about the murderer having a bit of conscience left and his reflections on The Shack represent Carter's personal worldview about themes of forgiveness and redemption. He actually already told us this in a separate interview where he was questioned about it, so I'll take him at his word on that and disregard it as having any coded message with regard to the case.

I think that once you know the WHY you can figure out the WHO. I agree that this was for sex and that he saw them and he was prepared and it was a done deal. And yes, if this guy lives with family or a GF or what ever, they know something isn't right with him. Hell most women can be around a guy once or twice and say "he's weird" or "I don't like the way he looks at me"; something to that effect.

Motive, means and opportunity is the way it is looked at.

 

[Yemelyan]

I think that once you know the WHY you can figure out the WHO. I agree that this was for sex and that he saw them and he was prepared and it was a done deal. And yes, if this guy lives with family or a GF or what ever, they know something isn't right with him. Hell most women can be around a guy once or twice and say "he's weird" or "I don't like the way he looks at me"; something to that effect.

Motive, means and opportunity is the way it is looked at.

Well, ideally yes, once you know the "why" you would have a pool of potential "whos." The fact that LE immediately went straight to Carroll County sex offenders to start eliminating people should tell us something.

However, the reason child abduction- murders committed by a stranger can take a very long time to solve is the randomness of the victim-offender interaction at their point of contact. And I think that's what's holding up the investigation here. JMO

 

[sandy_80]

A full DNA profile can be matched definitively to a single individual, but a partial DNA profile cannot. However.... it can be used to eliminate suspects.

is this the case here ?...it might explain the vagueness of the dna situation

 

[Skully]

Snipped by me for focus

The Shack was brought up by KG, in an interview with JR (dated September 19, 2018), in answer to his question about what she wanted to see happen to the killer when he’s caught.
Virtually a Detective /// Case 101: Delphi /// Chapter 8 (more with KG)

Listen starting at 2 minutes 45 seconds

After that, as you’ve mentioned, DC brings up “The Shack” in the April 22, 2019 PC.

Then, in “The Scene of the Crime: Delphi: A New Direction”, from 10 months ago, the producer has KG interview DC, on their behalf, about his mention of “The Shack”.
Scene of the Crime: Delphi on Stitcher
Listen starting at 50 minutes and 2 seconds

IMO, DC’s mention of “The Shack” was not merely a personal musing.

Thank you for the link Scene of the crime, it is very informative; but breaks your heart.

 

[Ravenmoon]

I think it's hard to draw many definite conclusions simply because Carter went off script, both literally and figuratively, for at least part of his remarks. We know this because the ISP released the information he was supposed to say and several things were different or omitted.

However, I think points 4-7 are most interesting because it's the closest LE has come to giving us a motive in the case. If it was about power to the offender, the conclusion I personally draw is that it was a sexually motivated crime. This fits with other known elements of the case, statistically speaking. I think that Carter's emphasis of "two little girls" is significant - they may think that they are dealing with someone who chose the victims opportunistically as opposed to because of a particular attraction to girls their age. IMO we see the FBI profilers' input in planting the seed that someone close to the killer may have guessed his involvement.

I think Carter's comments about the murderer having a bit of conscience left and his reflections on The Shack represent Carter's personal worldview about themes of forgiveness and redemption. He actually already told us this in a separate interview where he was questioned about it, so I'll take him at his word on that and disregard it as having any coded message with regard to the case.

I really appreciate this POV. I agree with pretty much all you stated.

Let me ask you about one statement in particular that has stuck with me- seriously. :
" What will those closest to you think of you "
There is no specific reference to Family- just "those closest to you". Could that mean something ?

And, I will admit , I am THAT person..over-analyzer, someone that looks for reasons behind nuanced statements- I pick apart the smallest of things and have been called an over-thinker. But, always..this has bothered me.

I do consider all members thoughts, from the outrageous ( I myself dabbled in that water a time or two) , to the common sense , to the "bordering master-mind thoughts".

I am always wanting to hear more.

 

[wary]

I really appreciate this POV. I agree with pretty much all you stated.

Let me ask you about one statement in particular that has stuck with me- seriously. :
" What will those closest to you think of you "
There is no specific reference to Family- just "those closest to you". Could that mean something ?

And, I will admit , I am THAT person..over-analyzer, someone that looks for reasons behind nuanced statements- I pick apart the smallest of things and have been called an over-thinker. But, always..this has bothered me.

I do consider all members thoughts, from the outrageous ( I myself dabbled in that water a time or two) , to the common sense , to the "bordering master-mind thoughts".

I am always wanting to hear more.

Perhaps: they don’t have any idea who the criminal is. They’re trying to sound as though they do know. So, if he doesn’t have family, they might completely miss the mark if they referred to his family. But, there’s a greater chance that referring to someone ‘closest to you’ might make sense.

 

[pearl]

If there is something in there, from what we know it was not a phone. But we do not know for sure that it was not a phone.

I had a niece about that age who carried 3 phones around in three separate purses. That was decades ago.

It could be a phone that nobody but the girls knew about. Or, it could be a change purse. She would be holding whatever it is to make sure that it did not fall out of her pocket to the ground or creek below.

Remember the LE admonition: Know what your kids are doing. I think there was a specific reason that those words were uttered. Don't be writing that off.

I taught middle school for 32 years. I do realize that Abby's mother said Abby did not have a cell phone. Having been in the company of young teenage girls for so many years, I just find it hard to believe that a girl in this time would not have access to the use of a cell phone. When we give the all-important (ugh) yearly state mandated tests, we take up the cell phones before the tests and give them back afterwards. Most students had a cell phone to turn in even if it was obvious that it did not work. They did not want to be seen as lacking something other teens had. Some would bring a family member's phone. We had a big to-do once because administration would not interrupt testing to get a mother's phone for her. I still wonder about the reported factory reset of Libby's phone the weekend before the murders. I do believe LE has gotten quite a bit of info from Libby's phone. She used it to arrange for her dad to pick them up, used it to take bridge picture of Abby, posted to Snapchat, recorded a video and audio of BG, and somehow managed to hide it so it was found by LE. This is just what we know about with the phone.

 

[Yemelyan]

I really appreciate this POV. I agree with pretty much all you stated.

Let me ask you about one statement in particular that has stuck with me- seriously. :
" What will those closest to you think of you "
There is no specific reference to Family- just "those closest to you". Could that mean something ?

And, I will admit , I am THAT person..over-analyzer, someone that looks for reasons behind nuanced statements- I pick apart the smallest of things and have been called an over-thinker. But, always..this has bothered me.

I do consider all members thoughts, from the outrageous ( I myself dabbled in that water a time or two) , to the common sense , to the "bordering master-mind thoughts".

I am always wanting to hear more.

Thanks, I appreciated your post, it's so refreshing to discuss something other than what's re-tread here a million times.

My personal view of the "what will those closest to you think" question is that LE wanted to plant the idea that anyone in the offender's life could be putting two and two together. There's no safe place for him - whether it's home, work, church, hobbies, etc, people are going to be thinking back on things that didn't add up.

In other words, I think LE were just turning up the pressure a little to see what shook out. You could expect some offenders to behave reactively to this.

 

[Jerrod]

IMO the actual phrase "creepy guy" is a rumor at this point. Specifically, it came from a GH show but his remarks, in context, show that he was paraphrasing (at best) or speculating might be a better way to say it, based on what he had been told by relatives who had listened to more of the audio. It was never meant to be a direct quote, though many have run with the idea as though it was.

I recall a creepy guy mentioned in UK news report as well but it was the reporter’s presumption of what the girls talked about.

It's been well-documented that it's not merely a rumor. Those of us who watched and participated in the Facebook Q & A hosted by Becky and Tara a couple years ago - and have read the approved transcript of it - recall the origin of the phrase. For those who don't take notes, the Keyword Search Box is a useful tool meant to be utilized. Here are just two examples of what you can find by doing so.
Best regards.

Thread #93, Post #668



Thread #126, Post #223

 

[Gibbo214]

I taught middle school for 32 years. I do realize that Abby's mother said Abby did not have a cell phone. Having been in the company of young teenage girls for so many years, I just find it hard to believe that a girl in this time would not have access to the use of a cell phone. When we give the all-important (ugh) yearly state mandated tests, we take up the cell phones before the tests and give them back afterwards. Most students had a cell phone to turn in even if it was obvious that it did not work. They did not want to be seen as lacking something other teens had. Some would bring a family member's phone. We had a big to-do once because administration would not interrupt testing to get a mother's phone for her. I still wonder about the reported factory reset of Libby's phone the weekend before the murders. I do believe LE has gotten quite a bit of info from Libby's phone. She used it to arrange for her dad to pick them up, used it to take bridge picture of Abby, posted to Snapchat, recorded a video and audio of BG, and somehow managed to hide it so it was found by LE. This is just what we know about with the phone.

Why on earth do you think that Abby's mother would lie about that? What would the point of that lie be?

 

[DeDee]

Law Enforcement has made the statement that the 2 recordings ARE the same person speaking. They have heard the audio in it's entirety and are privy to commands, statements and voices that we are not.
For me, I hear someone speaking to the girls in a way that is non confrontational when he says "Guys."
The tone changes and becomes an order when he directs them "Down the Hill".
I would agree that this is not something that seems to be in sequence.
Why they chose these 2 particular phrases is anyone's guess.
I hope that soon, we will know the reasons.

For me, I hear someone speaking to the girls in a way that is non confrontational when he says "Guys."

If he is not being confrontational towards the girls, perhaps he is speaking to someone else who's with him.

The tone changes and becomes an order when he directs them "Down the Hill".

Perhaps both girls made it off the MHB and ran down the hill. Hence, BG is ordering an accomplice to head "Down the hill".

Kelsi said in an interview this year that Abby was wearing one of Liberty's sweatshirts. Then, she said one of Liberty's shoes was found on the paved driveway - while she was there helping search - so she went to see it and IDed it as one Libby wore that fateful day.

Libby lost a shoe on the driveway. Perhaps this is where the culprit(s) caught up with the precious children; down the hill and on the driveway.

This is Julie's video, Post #70, from the Media thread. She shows us the driveway while she's on top of the bridge. Begin video at 3:18

If there was a third guy with a vehicle, he could have been told to come to their location on the road. Then, driven them to the cemetery and forced them to the killing site.

Maybe the purpose of two sketches is to inform BG that LE knows he had assistance.

Sgt. Tony Slocum stated BG's wearing a hoodie.

I watched a movie recently, "Rust Creek". The setting is rural Kentucky where a guy makes meth. After making batches, he takes the residue left in the buckets down to the Creek and rinses them. A young lady becomes lost in the area. She quickly became a target for the meth dealers because they felt she'd seen them emptying the poisonous residue into Rust Creek.

Is it probable is it that BG suspected the girls witnessed him/them dumping illegal contaminates into Deer Creek?

 

[BNA]

Why on earth do you think that Abby's mother would lie about that? What would the point of that lie be?

The point is: She might not have known.

 

[MistyWaters]

Why on earth do you think that Abby's mother would lie about that? What would the point of that lie be?

Well one thing I always consider is the family knows the killer probably follows this case as much as the rest of us. And they have a very close relationship with LE so when they’re interviewed, in order to protect the integrity of the investigation, LE surely cautioned them about what information they can reveal or what not to say. What we know, the killer knows too. So one far out example could be Abby’s mom knew Abby had a phone but for some reason the killer didn’t think she knew about it. So maybe he chucked it in the river, believing it was never found.

I think any parent would lie if required to, knowing it was the right thing to do, for the right reasons particularly regarding an ongoing investigation involving the murder of their child.

JMO

 

[BNA]

The only thing I would say about Abby having a phone, is this; why didn't her mother try calling her that day if she had a phone. We know Libby's dad was calling her when they didn't show up. So if Libby did have a phone, she must not have had it that day, or it would have been called to see where they were. So she may or may not have had a phone and if she did, maybe she didn't have it with her and her mom knew that.

Because she did not know Abby had one?

 

[MistyWaters]

It's been well-documented that it's not merely a rumor. Those of us who watched and participated in the Facebook Q & A hosted by Becky and Tara a couple years ago - and have read the approved transcript of it - recall the origin of the phrase. For those who don't take notes, the Keyword Search Box is a useful tool meant to be utilized. Here are just two examples of what you can find by doing so.
Best regards.

Thread #93, Post #668

View attachment 276373

Thread #126, Post #223

View attachment 276375

Your attachment - Thread #126, Post #223 - appears contradictory to “well-documented” That BP used the word isn’t proof either of the girls described the man as “creepy”. I recall that discussion here as well and as SillyBilly stated, the outcome was inconclusive.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I think that once you know the WHY you can figure out the WHO. I agree that this was for sex and that he saw them and he was prepared and it was a done deal. And yes, if this guy lives with family or a GF or what ever, they know something isn't right with him. Hell most women can be around a guy once or twice and say "he's weird" or "I don't like the way he looks at me"; something to that effect.

Motive, means and opportunity is the way it is looked at.

Problem would be, if already before the Delphi murders something wasn't quite right with him and they tolerated his weirdness as a personal quirk over years. They had perhaps no good reason for thinking about crimes, he could have been responsible for (or they buried their heads in the sand). IMO

 

[Deleted member 102539]

What do you make of Sgt. Holman saying none of us sleuths have the story right of how this incident occurred? All I can think of different is if the girls followed BG to see what he was doing and he then ambushed them. Can you or anyone else think of any other possible scenario that is the opposite of what we all discuss all the time?

bbm
This idea would make sense, if he didn't have crossed the bridge before, IMO. But to cross the bridge,where the girls already were, then going somewhere to do something "interesting/criminal" - that sounds unprobable.
If he was at the South end and the girls crossed (very good visible) the dangerous MHB for investigating, what he was doing, it sounds unprobable as well. IMO

 

[Jerrod]

Your attachment - Thread #126, Post #223 - appears contradictory to “well-documented” That BP used the word isn’t proof either of the girls described the man as “creepy”. I recall that discussion here as well and as SillyBilly stated, the outcome was inconclusive.

Becky writes: "They (Libby & Abby) were talking about that creepy guy they'd seen earlier."

Becky is articulate and discerning. Contrary to what you seem to be implying, she undoubtedly knows how to gauge her own granddaughter's remarks well enough to repeat them with sufficient accuracy and without taking them out of context. (And I strongly doubt there's a reason why Becky would deliberately mischaracterize Libby's assessment of BG.) Becky's evaluation of Libby's words, tone of voice, etc. is certainly more enlightening to us than your repeated contentions that the "creepy guy" phrase is nothing more than an "urban myth".