Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #128

[Falling Down]

I had a discussion with someone today about spies and in particular about John Walker. When I was in the military, we had annual required security training and the Walker case was covered. As a junior member, I was in one staff unit with some senior military personnel who were in the later part of the Vietnam War and had missions that went sideways. And some of these such missions may have been because of codes Walker gave to the Soviets who in turn provided that to the North Vietnamese. It was believed that missions from 1968 on were severely compromised by Walker.

Where is this going? Well, how does a guy like Walker do this and not get noticed by his family? It seems that Walker’s wife suspected him as early as 1968. He was betraying our country in the middle of a war and yet she didn’t say anything. She was benefiting from the extra money as Walker’s pay as a senior enlisted or CWO was not that large back then. (We had senior enlisted, chief petty officers and senior chief petty officers who had 2nd jobs and were on food stamps in the late 1970’s and early to mid 1980’s.) She was also scared of him. But sometime after the divorce and before the FBI finally believed her, she made several calls to the FBI. But she either hung up or was too drunk to be taken seriously by the authorities. She did this for years - 1976 to 1984. Walker does not get arrested till 1985.

I, for one, believe those of us on here are in a very small minority with regard to this case. We cite news media and interviews over and over. We hope for any such update such as the upcoming HLN feature on this case. But I would bet the overwhelming majority, even in Indiana, don’t follow it. When an update comes on the news, now is the time to get that beer from the fridge, while they wait for the weather forecast or sports news coming later. (“Oh, that case in that whatchamacallit town of central Indiana? I thought they solved that. That’s the problem of that town and not mine.”) Those that even know of the case that is.

IF, and I emphasize IF, there exists that one person who does recognize the person in the video (and MAYBE one of the sketches), they may be like Walker’s ex-wife. (I think the non-family members and some acquaintances of this killer haven’t paid much attention to this case or the video/audio/sketches.) If someone does suspect maybe they’ve tried and hung up. Or maybe were too drunk, or stoned or otherwise high to be taken seriously and their call is lost among the thousands in the database.

I wonder if somewhere down the road there will be arrest. (And this thread will blow up when that happens!) And we hear that a tip was actually called in the first few months. And maybe the person called back again later. It happened in the Tara Grinstead murder case years before an arrest.

Just thinking out loud late at night. After a few shots of bourbon to aid (or not) in my speculations.

I 100% think this very scenario may happen. I happen to believe, and this is merely an opinion, that someone knows who did this. Whether they've called it in yet or not is anyone's guess.

Far as interest in the case goes here in Indiana, I can assure members here it's very much on folks' minds. I moved to Howard County in October, after living in Allen County for a number of years, and the case has not only come up in conversation, it's on folks' minds at work all the time. Some folks here in Howard County have been out there to the trails in recent times, I went there in October myself for a "look-see".

Howard County is adjacent to Carroll, just east. One co-worker of mine dates a gal who has two girls in Delphi schools that would have been around Abby and Libby's age. If there's a region of IN where a lot of people truly know or know of each other, across a wide area, it's in this part of central Indiana. Which is frustrating, considering the killer has not been caught. People drive substantial distances for work, some guys at work drive upwards of an hour. One drives in from Monticello. This is definitely a "word gets around" part of the state.

Which tells me BG is not from the immediate vicinity of Delphi, and to me it would make sense for a killer in this case to not be from there or even anywhere in Carroll County. He could have been recognized on the trail. Be that as it may, I believe he's in this region of IN.

JMO

 

[cujenn81]

It has always been my (purely speculative) theory that Abby and Libby tried to make a run for it at some point. Libby likely dropped her phone around the same time she lost her shoe.

It does seem unlikely that BG would be able to catch up with them easily — especially considering all of whatever that bulk is that he’s carrying under his jacket. Perhaps he pulled out a gun and threatened to shoot if they didn’t stop running. Maybe one of the girls got tripped up during the scuffle and the other wasn’t about to leave her friend behind. Although, it’s probably some scenario I can’t even fathom.

 

[Falling Down]

There is one section of the new part 10 "4 years later" HLN Down the Hill Podcast that I thought was sort of confusing. In it, they stated that the only audio they have of the killer is the audio that has been released so far. Does this mean that the words, "Guys, down the hill" is all they have as audio from the killer?

But then how did the girls get across the creek? I think he would have to give them a command. Maybe they mean that Libby had already dropped her phone before they got to the creek? But then others say the crime was captured on the audio so this is hard to understand, especially since the crime probably took place on the other side of the creek, on the land of the property owner.

I wondered if you can see the cemetery from where the crime scene is located? If a person is walking in a forest without a path to follow I think it can be very difficult to keep a sense of direction. This is why I think following a trail or the shore of a creek would be smartest to find your way out of an unfamiliar area if you cannot go directly there in a straight line.

Yes, there's a trail on the private property adjacent to the main trail (Monon Trail), which follows the path of the creek on its north side. I saw it in October, it's a stone's throw from the bridge. It ends up at the crime scene. Another trail meanders through the woods but again, ends up at the main trail.

The CS can't be seen from the cemetery (I checked in 2017). Back then, I thought maybe BG parked there. The land drops off some at the back of the cemetery, a sedan parked back there would not be seen from C.R. 300. However I think this was more risky than parking at the CPS building.

JMO

 

[mom2chloe]

Yes, there's a trail on the private property adjacent to the main trail (Monon Trail), which follows the path of the creek on its north side. It ends up at the crime scene. Another trail meanders through the woods but again, ends up at the main trail.

The CS can't be seen from the cemetery (I checked in 2017). Back then, I thought maybe BG parked there. The land drops off some at the back of the cemetery, a sedan parked back there would not be seen from C.R. 300. However I think this was more risky than parking at the CPS building.

JMO

Thanks so much for all your contributions here. I appreciate your local eyes and ears. All we have is hope and you maintain that as well. Thank you!

 

[Charlot123]

I looked at the case as this man ordering the girls to go down the hill. Then he marches them along the shoreline of the creek. At some point, probably where the shoreline ends, they all stop and he orders them across the creek. This is how I would have looked for the crime scene if I went to the Monon High Bridge trail. That is why I thought maybe his command to cross the creek might have been on the audio. It seemed like that may have been a decision stopping point, deciding to cross that cold creek water.

I agree that LE has never said the murders were recorded. I think I have thought that based on thinking that Libby had her phone with her the entire time, but maybe not now after listening to part 10 of the HLN Down the Hill podcast.

Maybe the girls were being chased, but it is surprising they did not get away from him. The man in the video does not look to be in the best physical shape. But in my opinion the face of the man in the video does not look anything like the second sketch either. I do not know what to think. Maybe someday when this case is solved and everything is made public, we will find out what actually happened and how the crime actually transpired that day.

Tobe L. initially said "the twist" about the situation. A twist is something unexpected.

- could be the video of the BG
- could be the fact that the girls were waiting for someone, but instead, a different person emerged and killed them
- I can even think of a very weird twist, when a man on the bridge behaves inappropriately, and the girls get angry and first chase this seemingly weak, older man, and cross the creek. And only there, having trapped them, he kills the girls. Or "they" do.

Bottom line, I don't believe he just orders them down the hill and across the creek. Something else is inserted in the middle of the story.

 

[MistyWaters]

Tobe L. initially said "the twist" about the situation. A twist is something unexpected.

- could be the video of the BG
- could be the fact that the girls were waiting for someone, but instead, a different person emerged and killed them
- I can even think of a very weird twist, when a man on the bridge behaves inappropriately, and the girls get angry and first chase this seemingly weak, older man, and cross the creek. And only there, having trapped them, he kills the girls. Or "they" do.

Bottom line, I don't believe he just orders them down the hill and across the creek. Something else is inserted in the middle of the story.

How often does a homicide victim record her killer on her cellphone, audio and video, minutes before the crime is committed? That’s a twist if you ask me.

 

[Boxer]

I 100% think this very scenario may happen. I happen to believe, and this is merely an opinion, that someone knows who did this. Whether they've called it in yet or not is anyone's guess.

Far as interest in the case goes here in Indiana, I can assure members here it's very much on folks' minds. I moved to Howard County in October, after living in Allen County for a number of years, and the case has not only come up in conversation, it's on folks' minds at work all the time. Some folks here in Howard County have been out there to the trails in recent times, I went there in October myself for a "look-see".

Howard County is adjacent to Carroll, just east. One co-worker of mine dates a gal who has two girls in Delphi schools that would have been around Abby and Libby's age. If there's a region of IN where a lot of people truly know or know of each other, across a wide area, it's in this part of central Indiana. Which is frustrating, considering the killer has not been caught. People drive substantial distances for work, some guys at work drive upwards of an hour. One drives in from Monticello. This is definitely a "word gets around" part of the state.

Which tells me BG is not from the immediate vicinity of Delphi, and to me it would make sense for a killer in this case to not be from there or even anywhere in Carroll County. He could have been recognized on the trail. Be that as it may, I believe he's in this region of IN.

JMO

Agree. Purdue means a sizable group of people live in the area for four years then return to their home counties in Indiana and nearby states.

 

[Yemelyan]

Since we know the ISP and FBI were immediately brought in why were the dogs not used despite the discovery of the bodies? This was IMO a major screw up by someone.

I wonder about this too. As I said before, I'm not an expert in canine tracking, I know there are some verified individuals who post here who are so maybe they will weigh in.

But one thought I had was, is it not true the dogs need something - an item - to scent off of? We know from family interviews that Anna was asked to bring personal items that morning to use for the dogs to get Abby's scent. So, possibly it was originally thought by LE that the dogs would not be useful but later analysis of the crime scene showed that there were items or an item unexpectedly left by the killer that could have allowed the dogs to get his scent if the item(s) had been discovered earlier? Just an idea, this is not my area of knowledge.

 

[TL4S]

I wonder about this too. As I said before, I'm not an expert in canine tracking, I know there are some verified individuals who post here who are so maybe they will weigh in.

But one thought I had was, is it not true the dogs need something - an item - to scent off of? We know from family interviews that Anna was asked to bring personal items that morning to use for the dogs to get Abby's scent. So, possibly it was originally thought by LE that the dogs would not be useful but later analysis of the crime scene showed that there were items or an item unexpectedly left by the killer that could have allowed the dogs to get his scent if the item(s) had been discovered earlier? Just an idea, this is not my area of knowledge.

I don't know anything about canine units, either, but if the killer handled the girls at any time, I wonder if the dogs can search off that scent? I would not be surprised if they are trained to isolate different human scent from another on the same body. JMO

 

[Charlot123]

I don't know anything about canine units, either, but if the killer handled the girls at any time, I wonder if the dogs can search off that scent? I would not be surprised if they are trained to isolate different human scent from another on the same body. JMO

I once read a book “What the dog knows”, written by Cat Warren, a NC University professor, whose dog, Solo, is a working dog. Solo even participated in a search mission in Vietnam. I don’t know if the book answers your question, but it is captivating. My opinion is, dogs are still unpredictable.

 

[Charlot123]

I've been compiling a list of details about different serial killers (comparing their history, intelligence, methods, victims, etc.) to compare and contrast. Here are some interesting tidbits I've compiled so far --

Hillside Strangler - Kenneth Bianchi
(killed some of his victims with his older cousin Angelo Buono)

Adopted
Above-average intelligence
Suffered from petite mal seizures as a child which resulted in involuntary urination problems (which caused him a great deal of humiliation)
Troubled from an early age
Impersonated LE to lure victims
4 of his 10 victims were killed in pairs (ages of first pair were 12 & 14)
Hated women (even as a young child)
Worked as a former security guard (blue collar job)

Ted Bundy

Illegitimate child (who may have been fathered by his biological grandfather)
Harbored resentment towards his mother for lying about his parentage
Rejection of his ex-girlfriend also bred resentment for women
Grandfather (who he grew up believing was his father) was violent and abusive
Charismatic; well-liked in school
Feigned injury/disability or impersonated LE to lure victims
Bludgeoned or strangled victims
Explored surroundings to locate safe sites to seize and dispose of victims
Took photos of some of his victims
Heavy drinker / drank before crimes
Returned to the scene of some victims
Suspected of killing an 8-year-old girl when he was 14

Donald "Pee Wee" Gaskins

Illegitimate child
Physically abused by his mother's numerous boyfriends
Below-average intelligence
Bullied at a young age
Sexually exploited as a teenager
Intense hatred of people (especially women)
Worked as a mechanic (blue collar job)
Stabbed, tortured, and raped his victims
Majority of victims were young men and women hitchhikers

Israel Keyes

Raised off the grid by Fundamentalist Christian parents (who later lived among the Amish)
Above-average intelligence
Well-respected within his community
Military history
Strangled victims (which consisted of men and women, young and old)
Targeted strangers in remote locations
Killed far from home and never in the same place twice
Sexually assaulted female victims
Frequently committed arson and bank robbery crimes
Organized and methodical killer
Possessive of victims
Heavy drinker / drank before crimes
Handyman / Construction Worker (blue collar job)

Richard Marc Evonitz

Above-average intelligence
Had feelings of inadequacy and inferiority
Emotionally and physically abused by father
Parents were involved in public affairs
Father drowned his dog in front of him when he was a child and attempted to drown him in the bathtub when he was six
Mother married a convicted murderer and rapist in prison after his parents divorced
Military history
Married two women who were much younger, naïve, and dependent upon him
Fulfilled his sexual fantasies while married and murders stopped
Stalked victims prior to their murder
History of exposing himself and masturbating in public
Sexually assaulted victims
Strangled girls and young women
Drowned some of his victims in the bathtub before disposing of their bodies in a river
Heavy drinker / drank before crimes
Equipment Salesman (blue collar job)

The Green River Killer - Gary Ridgway

Below-average intelligence
Domineering mother who belittled and embarrassed him
Described as friendly but strange by those who knew him
Stabbed a 6-year-old boy when he was 16
Military history
Married three times (demanded sex from them several times a day and often wanted to have sex in public or in the woods)
Sexually assaulted and strangled victims (sometimes with ligatures)
Victims were female and ranged in age of 15-38
Painter (blue collar job)
Frequently sought out prostitutes
Insatiable sexual appetite
Fanatically religious
Returned to crime scenes and engaged in necrophilia (later buried victims to resist this urge)
Purposefully contaminated sites with gum, cigarettes, and written materials belonging to others
Transported two of his victims across state lines to confuse LE

Richard Ramirez

Abusive father
Dropped out of high school in the 9th grade
Suffered a severe head injury at the age of six (which resulted in temporal lobe epilepsy, aggressivity, and hypersexuality)
Older Green Beret cousin showed him pictures of his victims (people he had killed) in Vietnam when he was an adolescent and was present when said cousin shot and killed his wife during a domestic dispute (with the blood splattering on Ramirez's face)
Brother-in-law was a Peeping Tom who regularly took him on his exploits
Diagnosed with schizoid personality disorder
Burglarized homes
Sexually assaulted female victims and killed men and women in a variety of ways (shooting, stabbing, beating)
Left pentagrams / satanic imagery at some of his crime scenes
Mutilated victims post-mortem

Tool Box Killers - Lawrence Bittaker & Roy Norris

LB

Unwanted child placed in an orphanage and later adopted as an infant
Above-average intelligence
Placed in juvenile facility during adolescence after he stole a car, committed a hit and run, and evaded arrest
Adoptive parents disowned him post-juvey
Diagnosed as a borderline psychopath and a highly manipulative individual unable to acknowledge the consequences of his actions
Skilled machinist (blue collar job)

RN

Illegitimate child
Mother was a drug addict
Repeatedly placed in foster care as child
Frequently neglected in foster homes and denied insufficient food and/or clothing
Sexually abused while in the care of a foster family
Military history
Diagnosed with severe schizoid personality
Electrician (blue collar job)

Discovered a shared interest in sexual violence in jail
Regularly discussed plans to assault and murder teenage girls once freed
Sexually assaulted victims
Taunted, strangled, tortured, and mutilated victims while recording the audio of their screams

Thank you. Very interesting.

Given that a few of these criminals had a history of seizures, I am now wondering, what these “trance-like” states that I have read serial killers experience, actually, mean?

 

[somequestions]

I don't know anything about canine units, either, but if the killer handled the girls at any time, I wonder if the dogs can search off that scent? I would not be surprised if they are trained to isolate different human scent from another on the same body. JMO

I think the dogs tracking a scent may have been helpful in trying to determine how this person left the area. That has always been a major question to me. How did the killer leave the Monon High Bridge trail area? I do not mean the crime scene or the trail itself. I mean once he got back to a parking area or a road surrounding the Monon High Bridge trail area, how did he leave?

I know the obvious answer is he left in a car parked somewhere, but where was it parked? I do not think the killer parked at the cemetery if he cannot see it from the crime scene. How can a person be sure there will be two girls walking on the Monon High Bridge trail at the exact moment and in the exact spot he needs them to be in so he can then walk straight back to his car through the woods that he would have to be very familiar with in order to pull this off. Did he really park at a designated trail parking area and walk in to commit this double homicide? It seems hard to believe.

Where did the killer leave their vehicle while they committed the crime?

 

[sandy_80]

he doesn't necessarily need a car...hitchhiking is possible ...if he already had means of changing his clothes

 

[steeltowngirl]

I don't know why but I seem to have a memory that the girls had discussed going to the High Bridge up to a week before and possibly on Facebook, and that it was just that they hadn't actually asked anyone about permission or getting a ride until
just before...

this is how I remember it..is that wrong? anyone else remember? I could be bonkers....mOO

IIRC, Kelsi has mentioned in interviews that she and Libby had planned to find the geocache together at the High Bridge, at some point. I’ve always wondered if Libby and Abby didn’t decide to go check it out together that day. But I think they would have waited for Kelsi to go with them.

Also, Abby’s mom has said that Abby didn’t have permission to go to the bridge. Which implies that some discussion of visiting the bridge had to have happened.

jmo

 

[Yemelyan]

I once read a book “What the dog knows”, written by Cat Warren, a NC University professor, whose dog, Solo, is a working dog. Solo even participated in a search mission in Vietnam. I don’t know if the book answers your question, but it is captivating. My opinion is, dogs are still unpredictable.

I agree that without knowing more about what the specific dogs were trained to do, it's hard to say that they would have definitely been successful in tracking BG. Which is why Leazenby said it's his regret that it wasn't tried as they "maybe," not definitely, could have tracked him.

I think we all remember and most of us have commented on the huge number of cars and personnel parked at the cemetery and at other points of egress from the area. Remember the dogs were arriving well after the girls were found. I'd think it would be very hard for their handlers to say for absolute certain whether the canines were tracking an assailant's scent out of the area vs. that of one of the searchers or LE who had accessed the crime scene previous to the team's arrival. Unless, as I said in a previous post, there were items left behind. Just MOO, though I'd love to hear a verified expert's opinion.

 

[Beachlife926]

@K9Enzo It was a day off built into the official school calendar, not a spontaneous day off. However, by all accounts from the family the decision to go to the high bridge was a relatively spontaneous decision (the original plan was to go shopping after BP wrapped up her work for the day).

IMO even if it was spontaneous, they could’ve sent a Snapchat or text inviting friends to join them. If I was a friend asking or my mom said no, I would add in how it’s Abby’s first time crossing the bridge as a more important reason I should go.

IMO - and I know I mentioned it before but the suspect could’ve overheard the friend asking to go or decision was up to them (if they are in education and also off that day.) Quite a few families have group family chats (not sure how common it was in 2017) but what if another family member saw the text and knew where to go.

 

[minazoe]

I feel like the girls wanted to go shopping that day so the high bridge seems so random.
I still sense luring of some kind...stalked on the internet or even in person and lured to a
place away from any supervision.

Pairs of killers are not unheard of. What is also not unheard of is an older male using a younger person to find other young people for the older male to sexually abuse.

also it is not unheard of for serial killers to have a variety of victim types.

I have been sooooooo wrong about many things , in just about every case..seriously..but I will be shocked as holy he!! if there was no stalking/luring involved.

I would look for a male kid who has attended school in both Evansdale and Delphi.

maybe it's because I feel the Evansdale case is linked. mOO

 

[TTF14]

I feel like the girls wanted to go shopping that day so the high bridge seems so random.
I still sense luring of some kind...stalked on the internet or even in person and lured to a
place away from any supervision.

It's been so long now, details are fuzzy.....so they originally wanted to go shopping? Geographically speaking, was the mall just too far away from where Kelsi was going for her to drop them there and they compromised on the trail since it was a nice day?

 

[Beachlife926]

IMO another thing I’ve been thinking about lately is BG could’ve been recognized on the trail and police were told, but keeping it secret.
If it comes out there was an actual ID of BG then BG might know exactly who it was that ID’ed him (and don’t have enough for conviction)

 

[minazoe]

It's been so long now, details are fuzzy.....so they originally wanted to go shopping? Geographically speaking, was the mall just too far away from where Kelsi was going for her to drop them there and they compromised on the trail since it was a nice day?

I've heard 2 scenarios, one where they wanted to go shopping but didn't have money so Kelsi was going to take them after work...and another where they had actually been planning to go to the bridge but had not asked permission until that day.

they can both be true and both be simultaneous. mOO