Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #129

[Charlot123]

I'm on GEDMatch, I do not get notifications for matches. moo

No one does. You have to run your DNA against the database yourself. Private companies do inform you if you got new matches, though.

 

[Angels27]

I have a question about fingerprints. Does anyone remember how often, and where, we get fingerprinted?

I remember at least twice, the first time was bureaucratic, and the second time, something exceptionally routine. I don't remember being fingerprinted for the passport, though.

But - the army, the Navy, any immigrant, I would assume. Definitely green cards. How come there is not enough in all databases to compare to a partial?

For many jobs too like lifeguard, surgeon, (my sister was a lifeguard is now a surgeon and got fingerprinted for both) nurse maybe, anyone who works with kids I’d assume, maybe people who work in jails?

 

[Angels27]

I have a question about fingerprints. Does anyone remember how often, and where, we get fingerprinted?

I remember at least twice, the first time was bureaucratic, and the second time, something exceptionally routine. I don't remember being fingerprinted for the passport, though.

But - the army, the Navy, any immigrant, I would assume. Definitely green cards. How come there is not enough in all databases to compare to a partial?

For many jobs too like lifeguard, surgeon, (my sister was a summer lifeguard in HS, is now a surgeon and got fingerprinted for both) nurse maybe, EMT?, maybe pilot, anyone who works with kids I’d assume, maybe people who work in jails? Government jobs. Maybe people who work with a lot of other peoples money.

 

[janewall]

I have a question about fingerprints. Does anyone remember how often, and where, we get fingerprinted?

I remember at least twice, the first time was bureaucratic, and the second time, something exceptionally routine. I don't remember being fingerprinted for the passport, though.

But - the army, the Navy, any immigrant, I would assume. Definitely green cards. How come there is not enough in all databases to compare to a partial?

I don't recall ever being fingerprinted in my life. Not for a US passport, not for a foreign residency visa, not for any jobs or volunteer positions or medical reasons. (Though I was footprinted as a newborn.) I may have played around with it as a kid, since we played "detective" a lot, but I don't recall that specific activity and it's nothing that would be on file anywhere. I guess I'm a ghost as far as forensic records are concerned!

 

[janewall]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

According to Sunrise Sunset Times Lookup - MAPLOGS sunset in Carroll County on 2/13/17 was at 6:19:54 pm, and on 2/14/17 it was 6:21:06pm. It probably would have been dusk from 5:30-ish onwards.

 

[Angels27]

I don't recall ever being fingerprinted in my life. Not for a US passport, not for a foreign residency visa, not for any jobs or volunteer positions or medical reasons. (Though I was footprinted as a newborn.) I may have played around with it as a kid, since we played "detective" a lot, but I don't recall that specific activity and it's nothing that would be on file anywhere. I guess I'm a ghost as far as forensic records are concerned!

Same. I was recently down in Playa del Carmen and when I entered back into the U.S. at the airport and was going thru customs they pulled me into a room and asked if I had a twin. Lol. Said my face was not showing up in the facial recognition program they have. I said no, cracked a few jokes, which they laughed with me at and sent me on my way. They said basically “No worries Mate, you’re cool.” But it really shocked me that they couldn’t find me. I guess that’s one thing LE in this case is waiting for. DC said in an interview they are waiting for technology to advance to the point where they can make an arrest. If this perp is just some guy who hangs around a small town with few FR cameras and rarely leaves the state, the odds aren’t great they’ll match BG to any known face.

 

[Rush4087]

The bolded. IMO, when people come upon remains or even recently deceased bodies, they often don't know what they are looking at initially. I have heard deer, or a mannequin, as an example.

It's possible that's what was meant. The searcher(s) knew something was out of place, but it did not connect immediately they were looking at actual bodies. IMO

I think that's the signature. Jmo

 

[Rush4087]

I agree, the searchers were all looking for living girls, not murder victims. I think the human mind often protects us from sudden shock of reality to some extent so it wouldn’t surprise me if the searchers didn’t immediately recognize what they saw. The mind might first register the thought they were only sleeping, drugged, passed out, even trying to hide, playing a game etc.

I think that's the signature. Jmo

 

[Angels27]

Here is what I think is the problem with the DNA sample they got. No matter what it is, even a hair, you have to have enough to do a full profile to get it to Gen Match or Parabon. We used Parabon for an old sex case from the 80's and we were able to get a match. But you have to have enough of a sample to give them. Sometimes it is enough to put into CODIS, but not enough for Parabon, they need a larger sample to do this. They may only have a partial profile, not even full, or they have enough for CODIS, but he is not in there, no arrests so he may not be in CODIS. I am not an expert but I do know that to do the genealogy you need a larger sample; more than what CODIS needs. This is not my area, but the detective I work with explains this way better. And of course, you have the good people at the labs and Parabon who explain all of this to anyone that uses them. One other problem or challenge is that you don't want to use up all of your sample by retesting it all the time. Every time you send it out, you lose part of it. They will never use it all up without asking first, but that is in my opinion, not a good idea. Science gets better so you hang on to it until what you need is out there to get you your results. Maybe someone else here can explain it better. CODIS used to require 13 markers to get it into the system, but now requires 20, I think since 2018.

The scary thing about those mail in DNA sites is anyone can just swab their mouth and say they are John Smith, right? Who would know. Or make up some legit person and use that legit persons SS number, if they ask for that. But same thing, the DNA submitted wouldn’t actually match the person whose name was submitted. That’s why that database shouldn’t be considered legit for any criminal / legal stuff.

 

[Shamrock1]

For many jobs too like lifeguard, surgeon, (my sister was a summer lifeguard in HS, is now a surgeon and got fingerprinted for both) nurse maybe, EMT?, maybe pilot, anyone who works with kids I’d assume, maybe people who work in jails? Government jobs. Maybe people who work with a lot of other peoples money.

I think I posted on this a few days ago - I asked a few friends and was surprised that we are all fingerprinted. Law students are fingerprinted as part of their application to take the bar exam. Varies by state but may include with truckers w hazmat endorsements (that’s federal), store clerks who deal w lottery tickets, gun owners, teachers (not in Indiana) and realtors.

Some fingerprints are only used for background purposes and are not retained after a certain period (NY teachers, for example). I’d imagine a bank teller’s prints are kept permanently!

Side note: be careful w kid fingerprint sets. The powder may contain asbestos fibers.

JMO

 

[Sillybilly]

From a transcript in the Media thread, this is what the former Chief Prosecutor Robert Ives had to say about signature:

Former Chief Prosecutor Robert Ives

[...]

All I can say about the situation with Abby and Libby is that there was a lot more physical evidence than that at the crime scene, and it’s probably not what you would imagine. What people will think I’m talking about... it’s probably not. And so, because of unique circumstances — which all unique circumstances of a crime are a sort of signature — you think, well this unusual fact might lead to somebody or that unusual fact might lead to somebody, and I wish I could tell you. But, again, that’s up to the state police.

There was nothing that seemed similarly identical that you’d think “well, this is modus operandi”. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the term -- modus operandi. Where sometimes criminals will use a, commit a crime in such a way that it’s so distinct that it acts as sort of a signature for them.

DTH:
Was there a signature in this crime? Like, like when you characterize something as a signature. Like without telling us what it is.

Former Chief Prosecutor Robert Ives:
I would say there were two or three things. Ah, I’d say at least three.

[...]

 

[mpnola]

https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-new...-bodies-found-as-missing-carroll-county-teens

Yes!!!! Thank you so much!!!! This is the part I think is so important and never discussed. Thank you so much for finding that. I knew I wasn't dreaming hahah

Two bodies were found by volunteers on Tuesday less than a mile from where the girls were originally dropped off. The bodies were found on private property, about 50 feet from the shore of Deer Creek. Sources tell Call 6 Investigates that a set of footprints are what led volunteers to the area the bodies were found.

 

[Sillybilly]

In reference to the above comments by Robert Ives, I interpret that to mean there were at least 3 things that were done that were above and beyond just that which was necessary to accomplish the actual killings.

 

[Snoop Sister]

What we don't know if the perpetrator reads the Bible, or is a Norse pagan. There is a myth about the 13th God creating havoc in Valhalla.

I also noticed that while according to Western beliefs, Friday the 13th is "the worst", in Russian tradition, you can not find a day worse that Monday the 13th.

2/13/17 was Monday.

I wonder if the same attitude to Monday, 13 is typical for Slavs in general. I know it is also true for Ukrainians and Belarusians, but maybe, Poles or Serbs have the same?

ETA: ancient Romans considered FEBRUARY 13 bad for any undertaking, and in Tarot cards 13 = death.

I do really think one of his signatures is religious based...but that is just my opinion.

 

[Angels27]

From a transcript in the Media thread, this is what the former Chief Prosecutor Robert Ives had to say about signature:

Former Chief Prosecutor Robert Ives

[...]

All I can say about the situation with Abby and Libby is that there was a lot more physical evidence than that at the crime scene, and it’s probably not what you would imagine. What people will think I’m talking about... it’s probably not. And so, because of unique circumstances — which all unique circumstances of a crime are a sort of signature — you think, well this unusual fact might lead to somebody or that unusual fact might lead to somebody, and I wish I could tell you. But, again, that’s up to the state police.

There was nothing that seemed similarly identical that you’d think “well, this is modus operandi”. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the term -- modus operandi. Where sometimes criminals will use a, commit a crime in such a way that it’s so distinct that it acts as sort of a signature for them.

DTH:
Was there a signature in this crime? Like, like when you characterize something as a signature. Like without telling us what it is.

Former Chief Prosecutor Robert Ives:
I would say there were two or three things. Ah, I’d say at least three.

[...]

Former Chief Prosecutor Robert Ives

[...]

All I can say about the situation with Abby and Libby is that there was a lot more physical evidence than that at the crime scene.....

Must be in the cloud, on computers, at the girls homes, cars, someone else’s house, etc.

What do you guys think he means by that?

 

[Snoop Sister]

In reference to the above comments by Robert Ives, I interpret that to mean there were at least 3 things that were done that were above and beyond just that which was necessary to accomplish the actual killings.

Yes, I agree and I have posted some of his comments previously. Ives stated three signatures. Whatever they are, he said it wasn’t normal - so odd and unusual crime scene. “Way more to it than just murder”. He further stated the murder scene is not what you would imagine. This has had me going for quite awhile.
I would love to see Tricia get him on her YouTube show.

Edit - Ives did say that there was less additional information then people would would think there was. This confused me as well since he said it was way more than just murder. If it is way more than just murder and over and beyond what was necessary to complete the crime...what is the additional info and wouldn’t there be lots of it? Robert Ives also said there was a lot of physical evidence - it wasn’t very mysterious.

Silly Billy has got me going again...I am obsessed with this.

 

[Jax49]

Former Chief Prosecutor Robert Ives

[...]

All I can say about the situation with Abby and Libby is that there was a lot more physical evidence than that at the crime scene.....

Must be in the cloud, on computers, at the girls homes, cars, someone else’s house, etc.

What do you guys think he means by that?

I read it differently. I think he's saying there was more evidence at the crime scene (where the bodies were found). moo

 

[Andreee]

I read it differently. I think he's saying there was more evidence at the crime scene (where the bodies were found). moo

I agree. It wouldn't even make sense!

 

[Charlot123]

I do really think one of his signatures is religious based...but that is just my opinion.

If he left a religious based signature at the place of murders, it doesn’t make him religious in my eyes.

 

[Snoop Sister]

If he left a religious based signature at the place of murders, it doesn’t make him religious in my eyes.

No it doesn’t.