Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #129

[Angels27]

Its really hard to say. I've been mixing and mastering audio for a while. To me, it doesn't sound heavily affected by their processing. It just soundS amplified. You still get plenty of frequency range. I truly believe its an accurate representation. I'd compare it to being able to recognize someone's voice you know on an old answering machine.

I still can’t get over how old BG looks and sounds and reconcile it with the young guy sketch. U can mask age in a look, I guess a bit, but u can’t mask the age of your voice. Do you guys think there were 2 perps?

 

[FrostedGlass]

So this is probably a crazy thought, but looking at this picture, could BG be hiding on one of the pillars and then climb up to the top to be just behind them as they passed him? I don't have a good sense of the distance if he was to be able to get up there. I just see that picture of Abby and he is not behind them and then he is.

In a video, Greeno climbed up one on the south end; it had a ladder and he got all the way up to the railroad ties. The problem was the ties are too close together to allow him to get the rest of the way up. It's really high...60 feet+/-

 

[Yemelyan]

Once they decide to put the DNA they have into the genealogy database won’t that information automatically become available for public consumption? Like for any of the perps family members who have already entered their DNA, to then get a notification that you’ve recently “matched” with another human in X state”? Thus tipping off the family members, the perp, and any others watching for such a hit.

Maybe that’s why they aren’t entering it into that database. Or something about Indiana law is prohibiting them somehow with regard to the DNA. I read something to that effect, but I don’t remember exactly what it was.

You might be thinking of the way they tried to catch GSK, by uploading a fake profile that was actually his DNA from the scene. JMO, but I don't think that's how these forensic genealogy companies make comparisons currently. GEDMatch was acquired by a competitor of Parabon right after some court cases limited them to only seeing those profiles that had opted in, so IMO they started compiling a private proprietary database of volunteers that they now use to compare, and I don't think anyone gets notified if they match as a second, third or fourth cousin to a sample.

This article details more about it (worth a read): The controversial company using DNA to sketch the faces of criminals

From that article, there is this info: In the meantime, the US Department of Justice has issued interim guidelines to help police with their use of forensic genetic genealogy, permitting use of the technology only for serious violent crimes such as rape and murder, and only after other leads have been exhausted. Notably, the document specifies that suspects cannot be arrested on genealogy alone — conventional forensic genetics must be used to provide a conclusive match.

So the Delphi investigators may not be able to pursue this course of testing yet, legally.

As for familial DNA testing in criminal databases, it's not currently legal in Indiana.

 

[Yemelyan]

OK and in this case we known they haven’t elected to use any public genealogy databases yet or at least they hadn’t last time I checked, so say in this case they DO have DNA obtained legally from POI but it is not complete or maybe the crime scene DNA is not complete, so they cannot yet determine if there is a full match. What would their next step be?

If this is the case, would u then be at all surprised to hear LE say something like, “We are waiting for technological advancements to catch up with this case?” What in the future might make what evidence they currently have all of a sudden viable and admissible in court?

One potential issue with their DNA sample is that it could be partial; another is that it's co-mingled with the DNA of other contributors in such a way that forensic analysis is difficult. If either of those issues were present in the Delphi case, then no, it wouldn't be shocking to hear that investigators are hoping for future technological advances that could help them.

Right now there are many private labs, each with their own proprietary methods of analyzing partial and co-mingled samples, to greater or lesser success depending on the quality of the DNA that exists.

All MOO

 

[Angels27]

Its really hard to say. I've been mixing and mastering audio for a while. To me, it doesn't sound heavily affected by their processing. It just soundS amplified. You still get plenty of frequency range. I truly believe its an accurate representation. I'd compare it to being able to recognize someone's voice you know on an old answering machine.

I still can’t get over how old BG looks and sounds and reconcile it with the young guy sketch. U can mask age in a look, I guess a bit, but u can’t mask the age of your voice. Do you guys think there were 2 perps?

 

[Angels27]

We can’t ignore the fact that the crime happened on the 13th. Re the Bible: 13 is considered unlucky as it references the Last Supper.

 

[stattlich1]

So this is probably a crazy thought, but looking at this picture, could BG be hiding on one of the pillars and then climb up to the top to be just behind them as they passed him? I don't have a good sense of the distance if he was to be able to get up there. I just see that picture of Abby and he is not behind them and then he is.

This theory was discussed a few years back, and surfaces from time to time. In fact, if my old memory isn't failing, I think I recall a dude actually re-enacting such a scenario on some video back in the day.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I agree, sounds like at the very least they are concerned he could become one eventually.

I'm glad you found it helpful, @StarryStarryNight, I hoped you'd read the part about "fresh eyes" and see how open to review they reportedly are and feel some relief.

I took note especially of the “fresh eyes” part! I was very happy to hear all that. My hope meter definitely went up!

 

[Skully]

This theory was discussed a few years back, and surfaces from time to time. In fact, if my old memory isn't failing, I think I recall a dude actually re-enacting such a scenario on some video back in the day.

Oh good I was hoping I wasn't too far out of the box. But that could explain how he caught up to them so fast, and it would freak them out, for him to just appear.

 

[Skully]

Here is what I think is the problem with the DNA sample they got. No matter what it is, even a hair, you have to have enough to do a full profile to get it to Gen Match or Parabon. We used Parabon for an old sex case from the 80's and we were able to get a match. But you have to have enough of a sample to give them. Sometimes it is enough to put into CODIS, but not enough for Parabon, they need a larger sample to do this. They may only have a partial profile, not even full, or they have enough for CODIS, but he is not in there, no arrests so he may not be in CODIS. I am not an expert but I do know that to do the genealogy you need a larger sample; more than what CODIS needs. This is not my area, but the detective I work with explains this way better. And of course, you have the good people at the labs and Parabon who explain all of this to anyone that uses them. One other problem or challenge is that you don't want to use up all of your sample by retesting it all the time. Every time you send it out, you lose part of it. They will never use it all up without asking first, but that is in my opinion, not a good idea. Science gets better so you hang on to it until what you need is out there to get you your results. Maybe someone else here can explain it better. CODIS used to require 13 markers to get it into the system, but now requires 20, I think since 2018.

 

[PaulaDC]

You might be thinking of the way they tried to catch GSK, by uploading a fake profile that was actually his DNA from the scene. JMO, but I don't think that's how these forensic genealogy companies make comparisons currently. GEDMatch was acquired by a competitor of Parabon right after some court cases limited them to only seeing those profiles that had opted in, so IMO they started compiling a private proprietary database of volunteers that they now use to compare, and I don't think anyone gets notified if they match as a second, third or fourth cousin to a sample.

This article details more about it (worth a read): The controversial company using DNA to sketch the faces of criminals

From that article, there is this info: In the meantime, the US Department of Justice has issued interim guidelines to help police with their use of forensic genetic genealogy, permitting use of the technology only for serious violent crimes such as rape and murder, and only after other leads have been exhausted. Notably, the document specifies that suspects cannot be arrested on genealogy alone — conventional forensic genetics must be used to provide a conclusive match.

So the Delphi investigators may not be able to pursue this course of testing yet, legally.

As for familial DNA testing in criminal databases, it's not currently legal in Indiana.

I'm on GEDMatch, I do not get notifications for matches. moo

 

[Angels27]

You might be thinking of the way they tried to catch GSK, by uploading a fake profile that was actually his DNA from the scene. JMO, but I don't think that's how these forensic genealogy companies make comparisons currently. GEDMatch was acquired by a competitor of Parabon right after some court cases limited them to only seeing those profiles that had opted in, so IMO they started compiling a private proprietary database of volunteers that they now use to compare, and I don't think anyone gets notified if they match as a second, third or fourth cousin to a sample.

This article details more about it (worth a read): The controversial company using DNA to sketch the faces of criminals

From that article, there is this info: In the meantime, the US Department of Justice has issued interim guidelines to help police with their use of forensic genetic genealogy, permitting use of the technology only for serious violent crimes such as rape and murder, and only after other leads have been exhausted. Notably, the document specifies that suspects cannot be arrested on genealogy alone — conventional forensic genetics must be used to provide a conclusive match.

So the Delphi investigators may not be able to pursue this course of testing yet, legally.

As for familial DNA testing in criminal databases, it's not currently legal in Indiana.

I’ve read conflicting info on Sketch 2 young guy. 1. Says it was created based on his DNA. 2. Says it was from eye witness accounts of a man or men seen walking on trails.

Anyone know which is true?

And I still wonder why Sketch 2 Young Guy is the polar opposite of what we know to be true evidence: video BG. Video BG looks sooooo much older and sounds soooo old. I’ve shown it to a few friends and they all say, “That’s definitely an old guy.” Even when I say but they say he’s not old, they repeat, “It’s definitely an old guy.”

What do you guys think?

 

[Angels27]

As of a few days ago, TL told the Carroll County Comet that he still doesn't know who the voice belongs to, though it still seems familiar. Here's the relevant quote from that article:

Q. You have said you recognize the voice on the video. Do you recognize it as a jail inmate, other law enforcement team or person you know outside your employment sphere?

A. I still have not been able to pin it down. In my 30+ year career or even, as with most of us, we have heard certain voices but have difficulty in recalling exactly who it is.

Doesn’t that voice sound like a guy at least 50 or older? To me it totally does. I have a big problem hearing that voice as anything under 50 or 60. Maybe 2 perps? One old, one young? There’s no way that’s a young voice, unless it was doctored for some reason to block out some other noise LE didn’t want public to hear. Is that even a thing? Is that even possible to do?

 

[Yemelyan]

I’ve read conflicting info on Sketch 2 young guy. 1. Says it was created based on his DNA. 2. Says it was from eye witness accounts of a man or men seen walking on trails.

Anyone know which is true?

And I still wonder why Sketch 2 Young Guy is the polar opposite of what we know to be true evidence: video BG. Video BG looks sooooo much older and sounds soooo old. I’ve shown it to a few friends and they all say, “That’s definitely an old guy.” Even when I say but they say he’s not old, they repeat, “It’s definitely an old guy.”

What do you guys think?

The young sketch was based on the recollection of a single witness, not DNA.

Source: 'New' Delphi suspect sketch was drawn days after murders of 2 Indiana girls, artist says


DNA, as it's used in forensic applications and with the techniques that currently are reliable/exist, doesn't tell you how old the contributor is or was.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Important Legal Question:

In the state of Indiana if LE has the DNA of the perp from crime scene and has obtained the DNA under the table and without consent (say like from POI’s disguarded trash or a toothbrush or hair strand) and there is a match, (not yet made public) can they use this match in court? And if not, what steps would they need to take to make certain they can eventually bring this bit of evidence to trial legally in future?

Or maybe that evidence alone isn’t enough for a clean conviction?, and so they are just waiting for more evidence to heap on top of it to make sure they get a conviction since they only get one shot in court. Does this ever occur?

Convicting a person on criminal charges requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did in fact commit the crime. DNA evidence found at the crime scene doesn’t necessarily implicate you without other corroborating evidence.

While DNA evidence may be considered the same as a fingerprint, and can link a suspect to a crime, a criminal conviction requires much more. Our criminal justice system depends on irrefutable proof that the defendant was not only present when the crime was committed, but also that he or she is, in fact committed the crime.

This was the question in the Court of Appeals case of People v. Arevalo (Case No. G047523, Cal. Court of Appeal, 4th District, March 10, 2014) . The defendant was convicted of burglarizing a Santa Ana nail salon based solely on DNA evidence. He appealed the judgment, claiming that there wasn’t enough evidence linking him to the crime scene to support his conviction.

The Appeals Court agreed.

 

[Joanner]

Long time lurker from the Casey Anthony threads.

Just throwing this out there for your opinions. There is an app for Iphones (not sure if it is available for Android). It is called "I'm getting pulled over by the police." I am thinking this would be good for everyone to have this on their phone for safety in other situations, too, mainly because it notifies an emergency contact immediately, sends the location, and will send video. Wouldn't have made a difference for Abby and Libby since the app wasn't developed then, but could make a difference in the safety of kids now.

'Hey Siri, I'm getting pulled over': iPhone shortcut helps discreetly record the police - CNN

 

[fallingup13]

Doesn’t that voice sound like a guy at least 50 or older? To me it totally does. I have a big problem hearing that voice as anything under 50 or 60. Maybe 2 perps? One old, one young? There’s no way that’s a young voice, unless it was doctored for some reason to block out some other noise LE didn’t want public to hear. Is that even a thing? Is that even possible to do?

I too think it’s an older voice but to me it sounds like he’s in his 30s and in the video I thought the same, he looks to be around 30-40.

 

[Angels27]

The young sketch was based on the recollection of a single witness, not DNA.

Source: 'New' Delphi suspect sketch was drawn days after murders of 2 Indiana girls, artist says


DNA, as it's used in forensic applications and with the techniques that currently are reliable/exist, doesn't tell you how old the contributor is or was.

Yeah so that may have just been some guy someone saw walking thru the trails that day. That doesn’t mean it was the killer. Unless witness saw him on the bridge at the same time as the girls. And if he didn’t come forward assuming LE asked everyone who was there that day to do, there could be man6 reasons. Maybe he was some guy buying drugs, or a poorer guy without a TV or cell phone or computer. Or a guy meeting his gf for lunch or something and doesn’t want his other gf or coworkers to know or something. Or a guy who just doesn’t want to get involved for some reason bc of his business or the drama of it all and having to deal with police and all of that. Maybe he has other offenses and doesn’t want legal problems. Like maybe he’s not supposed to be near “parks.” Or maybe he was supposed to be working or at college that day and was goofing off hiking and didn’t want his boss, parents or wife to know. Who knows. Could be many reasons someone wouldn’t come forward to police if they had nothing to do with a crime.

It is weird that BG looks and sounds nothing like a young guy but the sketch is a young guy.

 

[Charlot123]

We can’t ignore the fact that the crime happened on the 13th. Re the Bible: 13 is considered unlucky as it references the Last Supper.

What we don't know if the perpetrator reads the Bible, or is a Norse pagan. There is a myth about the 13th God creating havoc in Valhalla.

I also noticed that while according to Western beliefs, Friday the 13th is "the worst", in Russian tradition, you can not find a day worse that Monday the 13th.

2/13/17 was Monday.

I wonder if the same attitude to Monday, 13 is typical for Slavs in general. I know it is also true for Ukrainians and Belarusians, but maybe, Poles or Serbs have the same?

ETA: ancient Romans considered FEBRUARY 13 bad for any undertaking, and in Tarot cards 13 = death.

 

[Charlot123]

I have a question about fingerprints. Does anyone remember how often, and where, we get fingerprinted?

I remember at least twice, the first time was bureaucratic, and the second time, something exceptionally routine. I don't remember being fingerprinted for the passport, though.

But - the army, the Navy, any immigrant, I would assume. Definitely green cards. How come there is not enough in all databases to compare to a partial?