Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #130

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I don't think the odds makers would put odds that as a 17 year old 100 pound girl, being abducted with a blackjack shoved into my throat...in a speeding car that I would have punched my abductor in his face, breaking his nose and jimmying open the car door where he had removed the lock mechanism, and throwing myself into the street as the car rolled...thus being my own hero and saving my own life...

nope, odds would have been that, that girl would not have survived,

but I did...

that said we don't know if the girls made a run for it...it didn't change the outcome and
I don't understand the focus on this..or the actuarial aspect of police work..

wasn't Occams Razor more the map predictor of crime assessment?

mOO
 
I don't think the odds makers would put odds that as a 17 year old 100 pound girl, being abducted with a blackjack at my throat...in a speeding car that I would have punched my abductor in his face, breaking his nose and jimmying open the car door where he had removed the lock mechanism, and throwing myself into the street as the car rolled...thus being my own hero and saving my own life...

nope, odds would have been that, that girl would not have survived,

but I did...

that said we don't know if the girls made a run for it...it didn't change the outcome and
I don't understand the focus on this..or the focus the actuarial aspect of police work as it applies here.

wasn't Occams Razor more the map predictor of crime assessment?

mOO
 
Look , it doesn't take experience wrangling teens to abduct two girls with a gun.

You can see the outline of the gun in his pocket...guns embolden people and make them feel invincible..it was no great feat that required experience...he pulled a GUN on two children.

candy from a baby.

mOO
 

What does Libby’s grandfather mean when he tells reporter her “cell phone’s been pinging around town?” Why would her cell phone be “pinging around town?” Wouldn’t it just ping in the area of that trail?

And does it seem odd to locals that the girls weren’t found on Monday with 200-300 volunteer searchers? Were they located in such a remote area? Or maybe covered and disguised? Bodies were found 3/4 of a mile from the bridge. Wow, that is pretty far.
 
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Pretty much my train of thought since early on.

I keep going back to the woman interviewed that week on the main street there in Delphi, she explained how she knew there was a "bridge out there", but had never been to it and couldn't give directions on how to get there.

The highway was built in 2013/2014, that general timeframe. Does BG know that area well enough to have known it before the highway went through? Before the main trail was cleared and made nice like it is, now?

I've thought since early on he went out there during other times of the year. The vegetation of the warmer months had to be gone in order for him to be able to pull this off. Two mild Winters in a row here in Indiana would have given him plenty of opportunities to see what it's like there at MHB at some point during the season.

JMO


I have a question about this bridge and the area. Like, @AwsiDooger, visited the place, with his family, walked around, saw the CS, saw everything, even how dark it was. Delphi became the place of crime tourism. Now, if someone disappeared exactly at the same place, all such tourists would be suspects, too.

But could it be so that there was some event at MHB, 15-20 years ago, that could be a good reason for someone to visit the place at that time? A very good reason, to visit and stay, maybe for a couple of days? I know only of archeological excavations, and of course, they attract people, too, but maybe, a museum opening, some festival related to first settlers, something else attracting a large group? Wabash canal anniversary, I don't know... Dephi has something, a theater, an opera house, maybe that?

Something where people would be expected to walk around, and buy, and see the environs? And it probably was not 20 years ago, it could be either something long enough, or occurring repeatedly for several years.
 

What does Libby’s grandfather mean when he tells reporter her “cell phone’s been pinging around town?” Why would her cell phone be “pinging around town?” Wouldn’t it just ping in the area of that trail?

And does it seem odd to locals that the girls weren’t found on Monday with 200-300 volunteer searchers? Were they located in such a remote area? Or maybe covered and disguised? Bodies were found 3/4 of a mile from the bridge. Wow, that is pretty far.

I am surprised that there was no local dog. Because even from 3 pm to 10 pm, on "an unusually warm day", any dog might have already felt... Or in the early morning, definitely. It is strange.
 
I don’t think it’s human nature to stay and help. I think most humans would run for their own life. At least then there might be a CHANCE u can save both of you. Imagine u are about to crash bc an oncoming truck is now in your lane to your left, you will naturally turn wheel to right to save your own life even if someone is walking with a baby stroller to your right, bc the baby stroller can’t kill u but the oncoming truck can. With only a second to make the decision u turn into the baby stroller. I think Abby was immobilized almost immediately and the killer went for Libby, or vice versa.

I think, the opposite. My feeling is, his goal was Libby, and she represented a threat, as to Abby - he either knew he could deal with later, or, for some reason that I can not understand, knew she would not recognize him had she survived.

He knew there was a risk that one girl would escape. For some reason, he took this risk. Why? Why was he not bothered to leave a witness?
 
So that tells me that either he is not in the system CODIS, or it is not a full profile. So either of those two things, will keep you from know the ID . Thank you I forgot about that statement.
Forget full profile—they might not even have nuclear DNA. The DNA they have might only be mitochondrial, which would be of limited value.
 
I realize everyone loves the notion that the girls tried to flee across the creek. But let me try to demonstrate why it is unlikely. In sports and specifically American football there is something called the backdoor cover. That is when the underdog seizes advantage late and scores to finish inside the pointspread. It is an oft discussed scenario.

However, it is quite another matter when you are actually depending on it to happen. All perspective is lost. My friends and I used to take advantage of sucker tourists all the time in that situation, in man to man wagers. For example, let's say a 30 point favorite in college football got ahead by 35 in the middle of the 4th quarter. We'd hear the tourists chirping, "Here comes the backdoor cover. I guarantee it." This is when the big favorite has pulled all of its starters and is playing with reserves, while the heavy underdog is still using its top players.

It is incredible how often those sucker tourists would lose sight of big picture reality. We would wager on the remainder of the game. They would actually take the 30 point underdog at Even points for the remainder of the game, counting on that backdoor cover. I felt so sorry for them time and again, even as I was taking their money. That 30 point favorite has such manpower advantage that they were favored to score the first touchdown, favored to score the second touchdown, and so forth. They are still favored to score the eighth touchdown and the ninth touchdown.

Only warped perspective considers the huge underdog now the brief favorite, due to situational variance. And in a roundabout way that's how I'm trying to describe Delphi as the girls approached the creek. We know they lost big at the top of the bridge. Otherwise they wouldn't be down the hill and heading toward Deer Creek. We know they lost their lives atop the opposite bank within minutes. All of this makes perfect sense because once that bad guy pulled a weapon the girls became massive underdogs.

Yet somehow we want to pretend they suddenly seized advantage as they reached the creek. Meanwhile, nothing has logically changed. The killer hasn't dropped the weapon. He hasn't collapsed to the ground. He hasn't changed his mind. Only the fanciful notion of applying hero mode wants to make the girls the favorite for those next 15 or 20 seconds, or whatever.

It simply is not a good way to think. You are wagering on the big underdog, for no reason whatsoever. Kidding yourself due to flimsy subjectivity. And if law enforcement had sufficient training in probability they would fully understand this type of thing. They'd have experts describing it to them before they ever reached junior level, let alone anything beyond that. Jolt, jolt and more jolt. Flush out the group embrace of 2% scenarios.

I'll be blunt again. We need more women out there in these roles. Delphi suffers partially because males are occupying all the top spots. Law enforcement everywhere is hindered by gender distribution. I've done this long enough to recognize that females have greater grasp of probability than men, largely because they aren't as stubbornly dense and don't fall in love with preposterous scenarios merely because they align with every bias.

So what is the probability that the killer in the case of Abigail Williams and Liberty German is a truck driver? Why or why not?

I think in many cases when LE comes to the conclusion that the killer is probably a local or is a younger person, it is based on some type of investigative information. And most of the time they end up being right. But I do not think they are right in this particular case.

Since we do not know the same information as LE knows, I think the probability that it is a truck driver is 50/50, same as it was on February 14, 2017.
 
On the DNA subject and I do believe they have DNA. He did not sexually assault the girls as far as I’m aware.

So assuming it’s touch DNA which I believe it is the police have to thread very carefully here. If he knew girls and had access to them he can explain the DNA away very easily.

I’ve watched every press conference from start to finish multiple times. And from my experience working in LE as a detective I understand the words he is using.

Why mention the movie The Shack......there is a couple of reasons but the main reason I would take away from it is, either they are watching BG and witnessed him purchasing it, or when doing door to door enquiries it was on the Tv, this tells BG we are speaking to you.
If they show their hand with the DNA and that’s all they have and he explains it away easily, LE will be in a world of trouble.

The car is huge for me as by now if there was an innocent reason for that car been there the owner would have come forward.

I am under no illusion they know who BG is and they are watching him like a hawk waiting for that 1 mistake, and guys with egos like this always make mistakes eventually.

I do believe his partner/family suspect something and they should come forward but loyalty/fear will not allow them to.
The car is that important to the investigation that they have never given colour make or model despite having it on cctv and witnesses putting it there. Why hold back this you ask, I will tell you why if they reveal it everyone in small towns know what everybody else drives and it will identify the person to the town of Delphi.

You also have to consider there may be a father in his 50s involved or a son in his 20s or 30s involved. They both live in the same house have access to the same car and both share similar DNA that is not in the system.

Both are suspects but only 1 is the killer and he is keeping the dirty secret to himself.

Identify the driver of the car that particular day and you have your killer.

Given everything you can understand why LE in Delphi are so cautious. They have 1 shot at this and have to get it right 1st time. There is no 2nd chances in this one.
I'm assuming that car is connected to BG. Do you think that someone as in a witness was near his vehicle causing him to abandon it or could it have not started or could he have lost his keys in this scenario. As in made mistakes. Or could the time issue play into this and he was close enough to know that DG was all ready calling out for the girls. He thought he had more time? Did he just hide in the woods till the coast was clear or did he leave on foot and get a ride back from someone to get the vehicle.
 
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If this guy has done this before he’s probably from another county or maybe even state. Maybe he thinks his fingerprints, if he was ever arrested before, might not be accessed by another county’s cops, or his MO or name known.

Someone posted about the Iowa girls abducted from a trail in 2012, the other day and I just read about it online. That was only 6 hours away from Delphi. And they never caught that guy, right? It was July 13, 2012. The bodies were not found til Dec. Sounds eerily similar. They might want to look for a guy who was “occupied” between late 2012 and Feb. 2017. If it’s the same guy, maybe he struck again and the bodies are buried somewhere. Or maybe he was “too busy” with something else during that time, like a serious illness, incarceration, new job, etc.

LE should also look at all viable Delphi suspects to see if any of them owned a white SUV in July 2012 similar to the one multiple witnesses spotted near trail the day and time the girls were abducted in Iowa.
 
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Yes,of course, that often happens with crime scenes. Investgators have ways of gathering DNA from people who were at the crime scene or with the victims and ruling them out. In that process, it eliminates all DNA or fingerprints or shoe prints except that belonging to the killer. We can probably assume LE has already gone through that process.
I'm not trying to be argumentative. I think though we can only hope all the trodden paths and shedders were identified.

Was it on this last HLN show that someone said there were close to 200 people involved in searching that night? Quite a lot of those most likely were looking around the Delphi Trails hiking area and surrounding woods as that's where the girls were known to have been.
 
Question? How many of you would ever cross that dilapidated high bridge? Even if someone offered me $10 million, no way in hell would I do it. You’d think that would seriously narrow the suspect pool too, right. I mean you either have to be really brave or really stupid. For sure that guy’s crossed it before.

Also, he probably wasn’t on drugs or alcohol when he crossed, right. He could easily have fallen off if he was. That might help eliminate druggies and alcoholics.
 
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Pretty much my train of thought since early on.

I keep going back to the woman interviewed that week on the main street there in Delphi, she explained how she knew there was a "bridge out there", but had never been to it and couldn't give directions on how to get there.

The highway was built in 2013/2014, that general timeframe. Does BG know that area well enough to have known it before the highway went through? Before the main trail was cleared and made nice like it is, now?

I've thought since early on he went out there during other times of the year. The vegetation of the warmer months had to be gone in order for him to be able to pull this off. Two mild Winters in a row here in Indiana would have given him plenty of opportunities to see what it's like there at MHB at some point during the season.

JMO

Why did the vegetation have to be gone for him to pull this off? I would think that the dense vegetation would have made it less risky for him to be seen.

Also, I have no idea if he is local, formerly local, or previously unfamiliar with the area. I think all he would have had to do was happen to see the freedom bridge from I-25 and would have known there was a trail there. Maybe he stopped and checked it out? Maybe he looked it up online at some point?

I think this is one reason why this case is such a mystery. There are so many possibilities that it is almost impossible for us to narrow anything down: Was he local, or not? Did he know the girls, or not? Did he come from the NW side of the bridge, or the SE? Did he have a thick, luxurious head of hair, or was he wearing a hat/hood? Was he in his mid fifties, or early twenties? Was his plan to abduct the girls, or kill them onsite? Where was his vehicle parked? Did he even have a vehicle? Was he the lone perpetrator, or did he have help? Was his plan to cross a large creek in February, or did the girls try to run? Maybe they hoped he wouldn't follow them into the water? Even if it was "unseasonably warm", it was still cold. The last thing you want while out in the cold is to be soaking wet, or have soaking wet feet. I have trouble with the notion that his plan was to cross the creek. BUT, it is possible, and like so many other things in this case, can't be ruled out.

Anyway, there are so, so, so many possibilities. I know LE knows a lot more than we do, but I'd bet that they don't have the answers to many of these questions.
 
So what is the probability that the killer in the case of Abigail Williams and Liberty German is a truck driver? Why or why not?

I think in many cases when LE comes to the conclusion that the killer is probably a local or is a younger person, it is based on some type of investigative information. And most of the time they end up being right. But I do not think they are right in this particular case.

Since we do not know the same information as LE knows, I think the probability that it is a truck driver is 50/50, same as it was on February 14, 2017.
MOO big trucks have transponders, tracking.
Truck parking in the area is exposed noticeable.
 
In my profession, chaos, such as that visited upon Abby and Libby, will overcome probability, odds, and statistics every time.
pearl you hit the nail on the head. Probability vs implied probability, margins, odds....throw a little chaos of thinking or deed in the mix and all those calculations shatter...JMO
 
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