Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #130

[JudgeJudi]

Deleted...picture didn’t post well....
Hmmmm...really messed this up...I’ll try and figure it out...
Carry on....

Is this what you were trying to do?

 

[Sneaker33]

How popular are the trails among locals for professional or special occasion photographs? Is the Red Bridge and trail connected to the area where the girls were found? Is there a cemetary near the trails and/or where Libby and Abby are buried?

 

[JudgeJudi]

It likely would have been legal for LE to do a "tower dump" right after the murders in 2017. However, this area of the law is rapidly changing and in fact, changed in 2018 so that LE can no longer troll for all cell phones in the area. They can get a warrant, with probable cause, to look for a particular cell number associated with a POI, however. So they could only do it now if they had a specific person in mind. It's also unclear how or if they can use any data that they might have gotten in 2017. Some courts are ruling this information inadmissible and others are allowing it depending on the course of the investigation.

Here’s a good article on the subject. It was dated 2018 but was then more than 2 years old.

In a nutshell, the ruling made by the US Supreme Court protects not only digital privacy, but freedom of movement. It held that “an individual maintains a legitimate expectation of privacy in the record of his physical movements as captured through” cell signal location information (CSLI). That means police need a warrant based on probable cause in order to obtain your records from cellphone companies.

The mobile phones of 400 million US cellphone users “ping” cellphone towers as they move around, and companies keep the information for up to five years. The pings don’t reveal anything said in conversation. But they do, taken together, create a map that can be used to track your activities retrospectively in an investigation.

The government argued that people have no reasonable expectation of privacy in their location data because they voluntarily submit it to third parties—wireless service providers—and so no warrant is necessary. The high court disagreed.

More in the article.

Your cellphone location data is now the last vestige of your privacy

 

[Yemelyan]

Here’s a good article on the subject. It was dated 2018 but was then more than 2 years old.

In a nutshell, the ruling made by the US Supreme Court protects not only digital privacy, but freedom of movement. It held that “an individual maintains a legitimate expectation of privacy in the record of his physical movements as captured through” cell signal location information (CSLI). That means police need a warrant based on probable cause in order to obtain your records from cellphone companies.

The mobile phones of 400 million US cellphone users “ping” cellphone towers as they move around, and companies keep the information for up to five years. The pings don’t reveal anything said in conversation. But they do, taken together, create a map that can be used to track your activities retrospectively in an investigation.

The government argued that people have no reasonable expectation of privacy in their location data because they voluntarily submit it to third parties—wireless service providers—and so no warrant is necessary. The high court disagreed.

More in the article.

Your cellphone location data is now the last vestige of your privacy

Yes, this is Carpenter vs. the United States. Prior to this ruling, LE were able to get access to data (both cell location, and gps from apps) from all phone numbers that popped up in an area near a crime. If LE found, for example, 500 different numbers with cell location data that popped up near the trails that day, they could go one by one investigating all of those people. Now LE can only get a warrant that asks permission to find out if a particular cell number was in the location of the trails. So, the difference is that after 2018 LE must already have a particular name in mind to put into the warrant, along with probable cause to show why that specific person should be investigated.

It's similar to how LE can't get a single warrant that gives blanket permission to take every man's DNA in Delphi. They have to find probable cause for individual men.

IMO

 

[Yemelyan]

Can anyone point me to the drop off area across from Mears farm? It is not used anymore, but it is where the girls were dropped off. Can find the farm, but am confused on the parking drop off area.

In satellite map views I have seen, the leaves were all on the trees so the parking area is not really that visible. If you search for "Mary Gerard Nature Reserve" on Google Maps, I believe you can see a fairly close representation to where the drop off area is, directly across from Mears farm. I'll attach a picture.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Snipped

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I think the trouble arises because people cling to outdated or speculative information because they've gotten entrenched with certain ideas, but that's human nature I guess.

Holeman said this way back in a 2017 interview @ 4:15 mm; there was a slight hesitation when he was talking about the people in the area and he changed how he was going to word that. IMO he was going to say that there are a lot of people in the area who do know but caught himself.

Whoever did this is probably the only person who knows some details of this case. A lot of people think they know and there's are a lot of people in the area.. there is a lot of information out there that is known but sometimes it's embellished or over-exaggerated and we just talked to the family the other day to try and squash some rumors.

To address what you said, we have a lot of really, really good sleuthers who have spent countless hours researching for information. However, due to rules, some avenues of discussion are out of bounds here. We have so little "known" information here that speculation is still about all we have.

Due to recent discussions, I know what the twist is, I know that the shack reference wasn't a place, and I know where the crime scene was.

 

[Skully]

Snipped


Holeman said this way back in a 2017 interview @ 4:15 mm; there was a slight hesitation when he was talking about the people in the area and he changed how he was going to word that. IMO he was going to say that there are a lot of people in the area who do know but caught himself.

To address what you said, we have a lot of really, really good sleuthers who have spent countless hours researching for information. However, due to rules, some avenues of discussion are out of bounds here. We have so little "known" information here that speculation is still about all we have.

Due to recent discussions, I know what the twist is, I know that the shack reference wasn't a place, and I know where the crime scene was.

I do believe that where they were found is where the crime was committed; because he lead them there and it doesn't make sense to take them one place and bring dead bodies back. No idea what he was intending with the movie reference, none.

 

[stattlich1]

Can anyone point me to the drop off area across from Mears farm? It is not used anymore, but it is where the girls were dropped off. Can find the farm, but am confused on the parking drop off area.

Go to the following website, type in Delphi, IN, then zoom out a wee bit. Follow Deer Creek to the right of the screen until you recognize where you want to be. Click the "Aerials" tab at the upper left, then choose year 2005, then zoom in.

Historic Aerials: Viewer

FYI, if you hit the "compare" tab, then choose "transparency" (the bottom block on the window that opens), two tab lists appear, one on either side of the map. You can then choose what year on the left you want, and what year on the right you want, and use the slider up top to move back and forth between the two dates.

 

[stattlich1]

This picture tells me a story. I've looked at this numerous times over the years. What I think it says is this. The cemetery was the location that provided the easiest access to the crime scene (for investigators and the killer alike). MOO

 

[Yemelyan]

I do believe that where they were found is where the crime was committed; because he lead them there and it doesn't make sense to take them one place and bring dead bodies back. No idea what he was intending with the movie reference, none.

This comment proves my point exactly. LE involved with this case have answered both of these things succinctly and directly and their statements have been brought here and cited by MSM sources but there are still people who don't know what was said (which is fine, they can research more) or prefer to ignore it in favor of speculation (this is more "fun" for discussion but serves no other purpose).

 

[Skully]

This picture tells me a story. I've looked at this numerous times over the years. What I think it says is this. The cemetery was the location that provided the easiest access to the crime scene (for investigators and the killer alike). MOO

Makes the most sense.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I do believe that where they were found is where the crime was committed; because he lead them there and it doesn't make sense to take them one place and bring dead bodies back. No idea what he was intending with the movie reference, none.

Does the BG perhaps own a barn or a shed, which you could name "shack" also, and is this a location, where BG would possibly think over, what he did, and where he would possibly develope a little bit of conscience after a crime? Are his "trophies" stored there, things from a crime scene? Are his clothes stored there, his shoes, his fanny pack, his tools? Is it a place to be alone with his thoughts? Is it a place, to meet with his accomplice (in case, he had one) and to do the postprocessing of a crime together with the person? Is it a place, where he is planning his next evil "adventures"? - Maybe, DC wanted to shock BG with something between the lines, which a smart BG would understand immediately, and it had less to do with religiousness but with a note, he told BG.
IMO and speculation

 

[Deleted member 102539]

This picture tells me a story. I've looked at this numerous times over the years. What I think it says is this. The cemetery was the location that provided the easiest access to the crime scene (for investigators and the killer alike). MOO

I'm remembering the vehicle track, which led across the whole empty field next to the cemetery. 4 years ago, I thought, it was the escape route perhaps.

 

[TL4S]

Does the BG perhaps own a barn or a shed, which you could name "shack" also, and is this a location, where BG would possibly think over, what he did, and where he would possibly develope a little bit of conscience after a crime? Are his "trophies" stored there, things from a crime scene? Are his clothes stored there, his shoes, his fanny pack, his tools? Is it a place to be alone with his thoughts? Is it a place, to meet with his accomplice (in case, he had one) and to do the postprocessing of a crime together with the person? Is it a place, where he is planning his next evil "adventures"? - Maybe, DC wanted to shock BG with something between the lines, which a smart BG would understand immediately, and it had less to do

Quoted from @Yemelyan several pages back:

In the podcast Scene of the Crime: A New Direction, minute 50:10: Kelsi asks Carter, can he clear up his remarks regarding The Shack? Did the girls die in a shack? Carter's answer: "There was no shack." He goes on to ask her if she has seen the movie: KG: "Yes, a couple of times." DC: "Then you know." He further explains that the movie reflects his personal values about morality and redemption and illustrates, in his opinion, how a person might cope with loss through faith.

I believe LE chooses their wording very carefully, even when being vague. But this reference, along with other religious undertones during the PC, and various LE comments in this and other cases, IMO, reflects the culture of the region. My guess is DC regrets ever bringing up that movie. His intended message was lost.

 

[dotr]

.

 

[Skully]

Does the BG perhaps own a barn or a shed, which you could name "shack" also, and is this a location, where BG would possibly think over, what he did, and where he would possibly develope a little bit of conscience after a crime? Are his "trophies" stored there, things from a crime scene? Are his clothes stored there, his shoes, his fanny pack, his tools? Is it a place to be alone with his thoughts? Is it a place, to meet with his accomplice (in case, he had one) and to do the postprocessing of a crime together with the person? Is it a place, where he is planning his next evil "adventures"? - Maybe, DC wanted to shock BG with something between the lines, which a smart BG would understand immediately, and it had less to do with religiousness but with a note, he told BG.
IMO and speculation

I am sure this will be unpopular but to me, he was expressing what the movie was about and how it related to these girls and their families. The movie, hit home for many detectives that work with families of murdered victims. After working these cases, you just want to know "why?". So I don't read anything into it, except that he was showing the correlation between what happened in the movie and Delphi. We look at facts, and clues and try to solve this from our computers here, but let me tell you, to meet with a family member of a murdered victim is hard. I did it only last week, and it kills you inside. So I think Carter is a spiritual man and he was reaching out to any thread of human decency that the killer may have had left to give the family some justice. No matter what the killer gets, death, life, whatever, it doesn't change what happened to these girls. JMO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Is this what you were trying to do?

View attachment 286306 View attachment 286307 View attachment 286308 View attachment 286309 View attachment 286310

HaHa!
Yes! That is what I was trying to do! Unsuccessfully!
The only difference is I was wanting to post a picture of a certain frame in the bridge video.(not any of these). It’s the frame I think shows that the BG actually is younger than we were initially led to believe.
In my group of individual frames, it’s #34. I don’t know if everybody has the same group.

 

[Ekliptika]

I am currently listening to a podcast about the Amy Mihaljevic case.
Has it ever been discussed in here if Amy’s case could be connected to the Delphi case?
Of course I know the age range does not fit, as Amy was abducted more that 30 years ago.

 

[MistyWaters]

This picture tells me a story. I've looked at this numerous times over the years. What I think it says is this. The cemetery was the location that provided the easiest access to the crime scene (for investigators and the killer alike). MOO

Perhaps but wouldn’t it be more likely for LE to use a location as an access point where it was known the killer hadn’t, so as to not contaminate or trample evidence?

 

[Beachlife926]

Great points about the shack. I wanted to add a couple comments that aren’t my own but found on earlier thread and stuck out to me:
The shack could’ve been on BG’s tv when LE went to his house. I couldn’t find the post to give credit but while searching I came across the following:
“The Shack played the weekend prior to the press conference on the Lifetime channel.” (Fineprint)
“It was released theatrically just weeks after the murders.” (ScumbagTrav)

Another interesting theory by emmeeks:
“1. Mention of the movie The Shack was not a reference to a real shack. It was a plea to BG’s conscious. I’ve not watched the movie (yet) but my understanding is that it is about God’s presence with the victim, victim’s family & the killer; salvation & forgiveness. Carter was telling BG that even though he did this horrendous act, he can be forgiven & that the girls are not hurting anymore. Urging BG to come forward. ”