Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #130

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
I have tried to think like BG as well and I can’t see this guy going on a leisurely walk enjoying the beauty of the scenery. There has to be a reason for him to be in that area besides a hike by himself. I do know from the maps and pictures in the area that hunting is prohibited on the trail. I don’t know if hunting is allowed on the land they found the girls on.

I found a pic of the sign that says hunting is prohibited on page 1 in the map of the area. Abigail Williams & Liberty German. Delphi, IN. 2/13/17 - Google My Maps
I remember a very brief interview with RL, who owned the private property the girls were found on. He was talking to the interviewer about how difficult it is to traverse that terrain (due to slopes and vegetation) once you go off trail and mentioned that he sometimes saw hunters and people there to fish in wooded areas and along Deer Creek on either side.

So, even if hunting and fishing are not permitted at the nature preserve, it sounds like people did those things on private properties in close vicinity.
 
A little info on staging. Criminologists define three types of staging, IMO:

Primary staging - the overwhelming majority of "staged" cases, this is when the offender alters the scene or evidence for the purpose of misdirecting or thwarting the investigation. When criminologists talk about staging, this is primarily what they are referring to.

Secondary staging - When there is an intentional alteration or manipulation of the scene for the offender's pleasure or fulfilment. This is related to the psychological signature aspect. Some criminologists do not consider this a type of staging and refer to "posing" or "signatures" instead. These intentional alterations of the scene include a wide range of behaviors, pre- and post-mortem, and all are done strictly for the fulfillment (typically sexual) of the offender. There are additional three subsets of behavior here, any of these would be considered "signatures" -
1. depersonalization - when the offender attempts to obscure the victim's identity or engages in mutilation designed to divest the victim of sexual characteristics
2. Body posing - the victim is placed in particular positions, usually to shock/offend society or to humiliate and degrade the victim
3. Symbolic/ritualistic - these are the "odd" behaviors where investigators can attach no specific meaning but they clearly had a meaning to the offender. They may have to do with paraphilias or other individualized fantasies or symbols. They have a tendency to repeat if other crimes occur in series BUT they can evolve or be adapted to individual crime circumstances and do not necessarily stay exactly the same over time.

Tertiary staging - Occurs when someone, not out of criminal intent, alters the crime scene because they are seeking to spare the family or victim embarrassment. An example would be, coming upon a victim who died by autoerotic asphyxiation and re-dressing them to avoid bringing shame on the family or victim.

A 2012 study by the FBI Behavioral Science Unit reviewed 946 homicides for evidence of staging. The found evidence of primary staging (intent to mislead police) in 79 cases, or a little over 8% of cases. The primary methods used to stage the scene were, from most used to least used by offenders: arson, filing a false missing persons report, faking a burglary/robbery, accident, suicide, and finally, faking a sexual homicide by exposing the victim's genitals (staging a sexual homicide happened in exactly 1 case out of 946).

Final word - I hate that Daily Mail article from which the "staging" comment comes. It was not a direct quote by Ives, it was the author's interpretation of what he said. He has never mentioned staging in any other interviews; he has mentioned signatures. Signatures could include body posing. However, we have no confirmation of that.

All MOO
 
I have tried to think like BG as well and I can’t see this guy going on a leisurely walk enjoying the beauty of the scenery. There has to be a reason for him to be in that area besides a hike by himself. I do know from the maps and pictures in the area that hunting is prohibited on the trail. I don’t know if hunting is allowed on the land they found the girls on.
Hunting season is over by February in Indiana, I believe. Trapping might have still been open, however. But the "no hunting" sign doesn't necessarily mean the landowner, lease holder, or folks given permission don't hunt there. And of course there's always the people who don't abide by the law either way...

These are the current seasons, but they don't generally change much.
Deer Seasons, Licenses, & Equipment | eRegulations

http://www.eregulations.com/indiana/hunting/furbearer-trapping/
 
Last edited:
What are the ages or age ranges of your top suspects? Iyo

I have 2. One is 24-29 now. The other is 72-75. imo

From Tricia’s post on page #1, we can’t go there. :)

“If you feel you have a tip, by all means, phone it in. Do NOT discuss your tip here. Contact the authorities and give them time to follow your lead.”
 
Thank you for that interesting link. I noticed that the police think that the crime scene was staged in some way. There was an FBI agent that claimed staging in a crime is usually done when the perpetrator knows the victims. This is all very useful information.

I agree, it is super interesting, and I hadn't read that particular article prior to last night. I've also not seen it mentioned elsewhere (yet) that there may have been some staging done to the crime scene. This made me wonder, was it possibly staged before he took the girls there? Or post mortem? Could staging be part of the signatures being discussed - things he did but didn't need to do in order to complete the crime?

Read this quote (again if you've read it already) and think about what Carter might actually be saying here! "To the murderer, I believe you have just little bit of a conscience left, and I can assure you that how you left them in that woods is not what they're experiencing today,"

Carter also said: "A question to you. What will those closest to you think when they find out that you brutally murdered two little girls? Only a coward would do such a thing."

Delphi murders update 2019: New suspect sketch, video released

What made Carter / investigators think that the killer had some conscience or possibly remorse over how he left the girls? What makes them think he might care what anyone who knows him might think of him if they knew what he'd done to those kids!? It really sounds to me like the killer may have shown some signs of remorse or shame at what he'd done. The investigators are clear that someone knows and is probably terrified to turn him in. Can you imagine knowing who this is?
 
Hunting season is over by February in Indiana, I believe. Trapping might have still been open, however. But the "no hunting" sign doesn't necessarily mean the landowner, lease holder, or folks given permission don't hunt there. And of course there's always the people who don't abide by the law either way...

Rabbit hunting appears to be legal. This accidental shooting occurred in February along an abandoned rail line in Carroll County, two years later.

Carroll County man shot while rabbit hunting
 
I agree, it is super interesting, and I hadn't read that particular article prior to last night. I've also not seen it mentioned elsewhere (yet) that there may have been some staging done to the crime scene. This made me wonder, was it possibly staged before he took the girls there? Or post mortem? Could staging be part of the signatures being discussed - things he did but didn't need to do in order to complete the crime?

Read this quote (again if you've read it already) and think about what Carter might actually be saying here! "To the murderer, I believe you have just little bit of a conscience left, and I can assure you that how you left them in that woods is not what they're experiencing today,"

Carter also said: "A question to you. What will those closest to you think when they find out that you brutally murdered two little girls? Only a coward would do such a thing."

Delphi murders update 2019: New suspect sketch, video released

What made Carter / investigators think that the killer had some conscience or possibly remorse over how he left the girls? What makes them think he might care what anyone who knows him might think of him if they knew what he'd done to those kids!? It really sounds to me like the killer may have shown some signs of remorse or shame at what he'd done. The investigators are clear that someone knows and is probably terrified to turn him in. Can you imagine knowing who this is?

Good post.

Another factor to consider is the impact it would have on a family, family name, etc. So it stands to reason there may be people in BG's life who suspect he did or have deduced such, but are reluctant to comtact LE. It happens.
 
I remember a very brief interview with RL, who owned the private property the girls were found on. He was talking to the interviewer about how difficult it is to traverse that terrain (due to slopes and vegetation) once you go off trail and mentioned that he sometimes saw hunters and people there to fish in wooded areas and along Deer Creek on either side.

So, even if hunting and fishing are not permitted at the nature preserve, it sounds like people did those things on private properties in close vicinity.

This is very true. We own considerable property and have found evidence of hunting and people trespassing, a few times right in the act. Both property owners and trespassers can become combative with each other.

There are many reasons unsavory individuals venture into wooded areas. IMO
 
A little info on staging. Criminologists define three types of staging, IMO:

Primary staging - the overwhelming majority of "staged" cases, this is when the offender alters the scene or evidence for the purpose of misdirecting or thwarting the investigation. When criminologists talk about staging, this is primarily what they are referring to.

Secondary staging - When there is an intentional alteration or manipulation of the scene for the offender's pleasure or fulfilment. This is related to the psychological signature aspect. Some criminologists do not consider this a type of staging and refer to "posing" or "signatures" instead. These intentional alterations of the scene include a wide range of behaviors, pre- and post-mortem, and all are done strictly for the fulfillment (typically sexual) of the offender. There are additional three subsets of behavior here, any of these would be considered "signatures" -
1. depersonalization - when the offender attempts to obscure the victim's identity or engages in mutilation designed to divest the victim of sexual characteristics
2. Body posing - the victim is placed in particular positions, usually to shock/offend society or to humiliate and degrade the victim
3. Symbolic/ritualistic - these are the "odd" behaviors where investigators can attach no specific meaning but they clearly had a meaning to the offender. They may have to do with paraphilias or other individualized fantasies or symbols. They have a tendency to repeat if other crimes occur in series BUT they can evolve or be adapted to individual crime circumstances and do not necessarily stay exactly the same over time.

Tertiary staging - Occurs when someone, not out of criminal intent, alters the crime scene because they are seeking to spare the family or victim embarrassment. An example would be, coming upon a victim who died by autoerotic asphyxiation and re-dressing them to avoid bringing shame on the family or victim.

A 2012 study by the FBI Behavioral Science Unit reviewed 946 homicides for evidence of staging. The found evidence of primary staging (intent to mislead police) in 79 cases, or a little over 8% of cases. The primary methods used to stage the scene were, from most used to least used by offenders: arson, filing a false missing persons report, faking a burglary/robbery, accident, suicide, and finally, faking a sexual homicide by exposing the victim's genitals (staging a sexual homicide happened in exactly 1 case out of 946).

Final word - I hate that Daily Mail article from which the "staging" comment comes. It was not a direct quote by Ives, it was the author's interpretation of what he said. He has never mentioned staging in any other interviews; he has mentioned signatures. Signatures could include body posing. However, we have no confirmation of that.

All MOO
Since "signatures" seem such a critical element here in thinking these murders are the acts of a serial killer (even if his first killings), and I imagine signatures can be studied and faked, I wonder about the potential impact of recent movies and tv series which featured offenders and crimes involving signatures as well as (in the case of Hannibal) a copycat staging his crimes to utilize the same signatures as had been present in other crimes.

Perpetrators who kill but want their motivations to be misunderstood might "copy" things they have seen on television or studied from following true crime in an effort to mislead investigators.

I'm thinking True Detective Season 1, which ran in 2014 (with the odd symbolic tripods constructed out of sticks placed nearby victims, the posing of victims, and the antlers mounted on the victims' heads) as well as the Hannibal tv series which ran from 2013-2015 (featured victims' bodies mounted on deer racks, a victim dressed and returned to her home and placed in her bed, unusual tools used to lacerate, excessive cutting and inserting various surgical instruments into a body, removal of eyeballs, posing, the creation of a totem pole from multiple bodies, cannibalizing victims, among other things). More recently, the Mindhunter series (2017) covered the study of signatures by profilers and presented some examples related to certain offenders, although that series ran after the double homicides occurred in Delphi.

Once knowledge of these types of elements becomes widely spread, LE must scrutinize what is "real" signature vs. what is faked and that must be difficult to do, especially in real time as LE are investigating brutal murders. But, perpetrator(s) who want to avoid capture and accountability will use whatever tools they believe will help them do so so LE has to consider the possibility of faked signatures.

Originally, IIRC various LE officials mentioned 3 signatures at the Delphi Murder scene. More recently, I believe former Prosecutor Ives talked about 4-5 things you would "absolutely take a photograph of." When you start to talk about that many signatures, I start to wonder whether at least some of them are staged to look like something other than what the crimes really are.

This being a small, rural town that had never suffered such an unusual and shocking crime, I wonder whether a fairly intelligent perpetrator used such oddities with the intent to throw LE off the perpetrator(s) scent as well as increase the likelihood LE would increase their reliance on investigators unfamiliar with the area and its residents.

Normally, I would think those LE most local to a crime are also those most likely to have or to gain the local intelligence that will lead to locating those responsible - things like who is involved with who, what are common criminal activities and where do they typically occur, what types of associations might criminal elements have even loosely had with the victims or their family members, could something one of the girls or a family member have done - even if completely innocently or as part of their regular work - have somehow really infuriated some hothead who has serious anger management and entitled-to-have-his-own-way problems and would seek revenge.

But, once the crime starts looking like the work of a psychosexually motivated killer who brilliantly executes a double homicide in broad daylight within the vicinity of others at least close enough to perhaps hear something during, or spot and remember something before or after, and then to disappear without detection, it seems that attention to those local sources of intelligence may go on the back burner as the billboards go up across the west to find the traveling serial killer. After all, who and where is next makes finding this terrifying perpetrator caught in LG's camera's eye something of a priority.

It seems like LE was getting a lot of tips and they pursued some warrants early on, so maybe I'm wrong and the local intelligence was still being pursued as well as welcomed in. It seems to me memories and local's thoughts as to possible connections were most valuable early because memories, things thought a bit unusual at the time they occur, or perceived linkages disappear over time. So, it was to the perpetrator(s) favor if he could swamp tip lines with calls from all over the country or make the crime so monstrous that those close to him might say to themselves, "no way,… he's a jerk and he was on a bit of a tear about blah, blah, blah right about that time, but he's not a monster who could do THAT."

In the past couple of years, LE has said they believe the perpetrator(s) is or was local. They have been mixed on one vs two perpetrators. Some have said one perpetrator (and former prosecutor Ives recently repeated that as his belief), but some have been more equivocating and so I still haven't dismissed the possibility of two working together. LE have also said they were originally following one strategy but are now following another that the perpetrator(s) did not expect they would do. That makes me wonder whether they have, or had at that time, located one perpetrator, but didn’t yet have enough evidence against the other. That was almost two years ago and for reasons that are probably sound, they haven't shared what motivated the change in strategy.

I am just very concerned that LE may have been purposely led astray by the "signature" and shocking crime scene aspects and I'd welcome and appreciate your thoughts on the subject.
 
Since "signatures" seem such a critical element here in thinking these murders are the acts of a serial killer (even if his first killings), and I imagine signatures can be studied and faked, I wonder about the potential impact of recent movies and tv series which featured offenders and crimes involving signatures as well as (in the case of Hannibal) a copycat staging his crimes to utilize the same signatures as had been present in other crimes.

Perpetrators who kill but want their motivations to be misunderstood might "copy" things they have seen on television or studied from following true crime in an effort to mislead investigators.

I'm thinking True Detective Season 1, which ran in 2014 (with the odd symbolic tripods constructed out of sticks placed nearby victims, the posing of victims, and the antlers mounted on the victims' heads) as well as the Hannibal tv series which ran from 2013-2015 (featured victims' bodies mounted on deer racks, a victim dressed and returned to her home and placed in her bed, unusual tools used to lacerate, excessive cutting and inserting various surgical instruments into a body, removal of eyeballs, posing, the creation of a totem pole from multiple bodies, cannibalizing victims, among other things). More recently, the Mindhunter series (2017) covered the study of signatures by profilers and presented some examples related to certain offenders, although that series ran after the double homicides occurred in Delphi.

Once knowledge of these types of elements becomes widely spread, LE must scrutinize what is "real" signature vs. what is faked and that must be difficult to do, especially in real time as LE are investigating brutal murders. But, perpetrator(s) who want to avoid capture and accountability will use whatever tools they believe will help them do so so LE has to consider the possibility of faked signatures.

Originally, IIRC various LE officials mentioned 3 signatures at the Delphi Murder scene. More recently, I believe former Prosecutor Ives talked about 4-5 things you would "absolutely take a photograph of." When you start to talk about that many signatures, I start to wonder whether at least some of them are staged to look like something other than what the crimes really are.

This being a small, rural town that had never suffered such an unusual and shocking crime, I wonder whether a fairly intelligent perpetrator used such oddities with the intent to throw LE off the perpetrator(s) scent as well as increase the likelihood LE would increase their reliance on investigators unfamiliar with the area and its residents.

Normally, I would think those LE most local to a crime are also those most likely to have or to gain the local intelligence that will lead to locating those responsible - things like who is involved with who, what are common criminal activities and where do they typically occur, what types of associations might criminal elements have even loosely had with the victims or their family members, could something one of the girls or a family member have done - even if completely innocently or as part of their regular work - have somehow really infuriated some hothead who has serious anger management and entitled-to-have-his-own-way problems and would seek revenge.

But, once the crime starts looking like the work of a psychosexually motivated killer who brilliantly executes a double homicide in broad daylight within the vicinity of others at least close enough to perhaps hear something during, or spot and remember something before or after, and then to disappear without detection, it seems that attention to those local sources of intelligence may go on the back burner as the billboards go up across the west to find the traveling serial killer. After all, who and where is next makes finding this terrifying perpetrator caught in LG's camera's eye something of a priority.

It seems like LE was getting a lot of tips and they pursued some warrants early on, so maybe I'm wrong and the local intelligence was still being pursued as well as welcomed in. It seems to me memories and local's thoughts as to possible connections were most valuable early because memories, things thought a bit unusual at the time they occur, or perceived linkages disappear over time. So, it was to the perpetrator(s) favor if he could swamp tip lines with calls from all over the country or make the crime so monstrous that those close to him might say to themselves, "no way,… he's a jerk and he was on a bit of a tear about blah, blah, blah right about that time, but he's not a monster who could do THAT."

In the past couple of years, LE has said they believe the perpetrator(s) is or was local. They have been mixed on one vs two perpetrators. Some have said one perpetrator (and former prosecutor Ives recently repeated that as his belief), but some have been more equivocating and so I still haven't dismissed the possibility of two working together. LE have also said they were originally following one strategy but are now following another that the perpetrator(s) did not expect they would do. That makes me wonder whether they have, or had at that time, located one perpetrator, but didn’t yet have enough evidence against the other. That was almost two years ago and for reasons that are probably sound, they haven't shared what motivated the change in strategy.

I am just very concerned that LE may have been purposely led astray by the "signature" and shocking crime scene aspects and I'd welcome and appreciate your thoughts on the subject.

If I understand correctly, you're asking about a hypothetical situation where a perpetrator has seen or read something about another serial killer's signatures. He then decides to do his own crime, and include elements of the things he's been "inspired" by, whether that's just for shock value or in order to actually divert LE toward thinking the other killer is responsible?

It's just my opinion but the above scenario is likely to be a pretty rare situation where someone essentially "fakes" the signature aspect to their crime, for a couple of reasons. Let's say a person reads about the unsolved crimes of a serial killer in his city who has not yet been caught by police and becomes fixated on the fact that there was post-mortem mutilation (just an example). Then he commits a crime and performs post-mortem mutilation on his own victim. Is he "faking" the other killer's signature or has that become an element of his own fantasy that he then acted out?

Most signatures are sexually oriented behaviors, that's something that a lot of people don't realize. Signatures usually aren't things like "he left a heart shaped drawing behind" like you might read in mystery novels. Most of the behaviors that LE would look at and say, "Hmmm, I think this particular crime scene aspect is showing us the deviant workings of this person's fantasies" are not things that an otherwise "normal" person could fake. For instance, there are indeed a few known examples where a man murdered his wife for an insurance payout and pulled up her clothes to make it look like a sexual assault had occurred and was the motive for the crime (primary staging). But there are basically no examples that I know of, where a man was emotionally able to sexually mutilate his wife (depersonalization), in order to fake the same scenario. There are certain things one could probably only do to a victim if it really were part of the "leakage" of the criminal mind. Simply speaking, it takes a special kind of sadism for these signatures to come out and the types of things that are often done would not be easily faked. If they occur at all, they are likely part of that offender's psychological need.

I will say that there are examples where offenders claimed that their signatures were only done to throw police off. And probably they said this to save face when they were caught doing some absolutely sadistic things. I've used the example of the killer Austin Sigg before. He committed just a single murder but had a very developed number of signatures, especially considering that he was a teenager. He performed a particular signature behavior with a cross and claimed to investigators after he was caught that he only did it to make police think a religious person committed the crime. However, through the investigation process LE was able to uncover the meaning behind the particular cross he used and it indeed had specific symbolic purposes to Sigg that some of his friends were even able to testify to.

These are all just my opinions, @Diddian.
 
If I understand correctly, you're asking about a hypothetical situation where a perpetrator has seen or read something about another serial killer's signatures. He then decides to do his own crime, and include elements of the things he's been "inspired" by, whether that's just for shock value or in order to actually divert LE toward thinking the other killer is responsible?

It's just my opinion but the above scenario is likely to be a pretty rare situation where someone essentially "fakes" the signature aspect to their crime, for a couple of reasons. Let's say a person reads about the unsolved crimes of a serial killer in his city who has not yet been caught by police and becomes fixated on the fact that there was post-mortem mutilation (just an example). Then he commits a crime and performs post-mortem mutilation on his own victim. Is he "faking" the other killer's signature or has that become an element of his own fantasy that he then acted out?

Most signatures are sexually oriented behaviors, that's something that a lot of people don't realize. Signatures usually aren't things like "he left a heart shaped drawing behind" like you might read in mystery novels. Most of the behaviors that LE would look at and say, "Hmmm, I think this particular crime scene aspect is showing us the deviant workings of this person's fantasies" are not things that an otherwise "normal" person could fake. For instance, there are indeed a few known examples where a man murdered his wife for an insurance payout and pulled up her clothes to make it look like a sexual assault had occurred and was the motive for the crime (primary staging). But there are basically no examples that I know of, where a man was emotionally able to sexually mutilate his wife (depersonalization), in order to fake the same scenario. There are certain things one could probably only do to a victim if it really were part of the "leakage" of the criminal mind. Simply speaking, it takes a special kind of sadism for these signatures to come out and the types of things that are often done would not be easily faked. If they occur at all, they are likely part of that offender's psychological need.

I will say that there are examples where offenders claimed that their signatures were only done to throw police off. And probably they said this to save face when they were caught doing some absolutely sadistic things. I've used the example of the killer Austin Sigg before. He committed just a single murder but had a very developed number of signatures, especially considering that he was a teenager. He performed a particular signature behavior with a cross and claimed to investigators after he was caught that he only did it to make police think a religious person committed the crime. However, through the investigation process LE was able to uncover the meaning behind the particular cross he used and it indeed had specific symbolic purposes to Sigg that some of his friends were even able to testify to.

These are all just my opinions, @Diddian.

I agree with you. Signatures come from deep within the killer's psyche and are rarely something that could be an attempt at staging, overlooked. Staging is done to try to redirect the investigation. (I tried looking for cases where something first thought to be a signature was actually staging and couldn't find any examples, but I did find this research done by the Army on unique/rare staging. It doesn't have anything to do with the above but I want to post it because Case Study #2 about the girlfriend/boyfriend is too strange not to share - Staged Crime Scenes: Crime Scene Clues to Suspect Misdirection of the Investigation )

FBI was on the scene in Delphi immediately. They no doubt have a big interest in this case since the elements are so rare (double child homicide in broad daylight at a public park that was very likely committed by a stranger). Law enforcement said they still assist them. Some pages back a Youtube video was shared that was like a podcast interview with the people from H.L.N. and they said this case is presented in training at Quantico I believe. Because of FBI instant involvement and expertise in crime scene behaviors, I personally am not concerned that acts were misidentified or overlooked. They really excel at crime scene/behavioral analysis.
 
For me, being a victim of circumstance is vastly different than being a victim of opportunity, although they are not necessarily exclusive of one another. It would depend on the facts of the case.

Just one example of several I could conjure, theoretically speaking, the girls could have witnessed a drug deal on the trail that day, maybe someone prominent in the community, heck, they wouldn't even have had to recognize him, or anyone else, just walking by could do it. That would be a circumstance that may have led to a frightened and enraged individual committing murder. However, it is unlikely, IMO, as I believe the killer here had some things with him that he used in this crime, evidence of planning, you see.

If it's purely being a victim of opportunity, then indeed I believe we would have a serial killer, or a budding serial killer on our hands, or the girls were murdered for a reason.

The LE officer that made the statement may have simply been alluding to his belief that the circumstances of nice weather, a day off school, timing, and remoteness of the trail/bridge led to the opportunity for the killer.

I think BG was there that day to commit murder. He could have been there on other days before, with the intention of the same.

I don't think the girls were lured to the bridge, and I don't think they were in communication with anyone that they would be meeting at the bridge. Although I do have a piece of me that still thinks the possibility exists that there is a connection between the killer and the girls.

I really WANT to believe Abby and Libby weren't targeted, however, there are so many things that LE have gotten wrong on this case, I'm hesitant to dive in head first and put full faith and confidence in their assessment of the situation, in particular in light of the fact that they have not solved the case.

The wrong path for two years is a major faux pas in my book. This in and of itself is a glaring example of why I just don't have full confidence.

Calling off the search, yet allowing who knows who to, reportedly hundreds of people, to continue to search, many throughout the night. I think this to be a major error in judgement, and a contributing factor to the difficulty in securing and analyzing the crime scene.

Failure to utilize canine SAR teams. IMO, any report of a missing person in which LE becomes involved should promptly result in trained canine units being called upon to assist.

Myriad examples of inconsistencies in pressers and statements to the public.

I am a strong supporter of LE. Trust me, I know several by first name. I truly hope the tip comes in that solves this case. Then we all can find out just how wrong we were in our speculation :D:D:D
 
Thank you for that interesting link. I noticed that the police think that the crime scene was staged in some way. There was an FBI agent that claimed staging in a crime is usually done when the perpetrator knows the victims. This is all very useful information.[
 
I read late last night, it is something they could usually trace back to someone specific, but haven't been able to do so in this case... so what could that physical evidence be? The specific quote from the article I've linked below is as follows: " Ives said: 'Even though at the crime scene there was a lot of physical evidence of one sort of another which would lead logically to one person or another, it never led to one
So? What could or should have logically led to one person or another, but didn't? Theories?
-> Did he leave (intentionally or not), a device of some sort at the scene? Electronic device? Prosthetic device (serial numbers can be used to trace these to maker etc). Was he diabetic and left something related to that there?
-> what could he have done that they thought they should have been able to trace back to someone specific?
-> some hint of employment?

2. We've only heard about Libby's phone having taken the video / audio evidence. Did Abby have a phone? If so, where was it? Who has it now?

(Former prosecutor in unsolved Delphi murders of two teens says they had signature elements | Daily Mail Online)
It could be a pair of glasses either intact or broken or a contact lens.
 
Last edited:
For me, being a victim of circumstance is vastly different than being a victim of opportunity, although they are not necessarily exclusive of one another. It would depend on the facts of the case.

Snipped for clarity.

And in fact, it appears that TL was talking about two separate cases, so the victims in the Delphi case need not be both victims of circumstance and victims of opportunity. He was commenting on both the Flora Fire and Abby and Libby's murders.

The statement in context (again this is an excerpt from the Carroll County Comet, part 1:

Q. Former Delphi Police Chief Steve Mullin stated at the first press conference “our people know what to do” after being asked if the community was in danger and what precautions should residents take. Parents of school-age children were taken aback by this statement. As the county’s chief law enforcement officer, are residents, particularly young girls of Carroll County in danger given the unsolved murders of six young girls?

A. Comparing Carroll County to other jurisdictions and our annual statistics, I still feel Carroll County is one of the safest areas to live in. I would much rather raise a family here than say, a larger metropolitan area.

Q In your professional opinion, would you describe the deaths of the six females as “planned”?

A. No. Rather, “victims of circumstance or opportunity.” Additionally, ISP is the lead with the Flora investigation. Our agency is not actively involved with that investigation.


Notice he doesn't answer the question of whether young girls in Carroll County are in danger, he answers similarly to how he has on other occasions, by deflecting this question with how he feels, what he'd like to believe or what he hopes will happen. He's trying to avoid the community getting riled up, in my opinion. Part of his job is also keeping the peace within that community.
 
Good post.

Another factor to consider is the impact it would have on a family, family name, etc. So it stands to reason there may be people in BG's life who suspect he did or have deduced such, but are reluctant to comtact LE. It happens.


It could be a pair of glasses either intact or broken or a contact lens.

Doubtful in my view, but only because LE did a press conference in 2019 and they said something to the effect of, "you want to know what we know, and one day, you will" It sounds like they don't think the killer even realizes what evidence he may have left behind, and they're hoping the wondering what it could be drives him towards them sooner than later. I'd imagine he'd know if he lost glasses, or a contact lens at or near the scene, so that doesn't seem right to me. I wonder what they know that probably makes the guy nervous, wondering day in and day out if they know or what they know?!
‘We believe you are hiding in plain sight’: Police release new sketch of Delphi teens’ killer .
 
I agree, it is super interesting, and I hadn't read that particular article prior to last night. I've also not seen it mentioned elsewhere (yet) that there may have been some staging done to the crime scene. This made me wonder, was it possibly staged before he took the girls there? Or post mortem? Could staging be part of the signatures being discussed - things he did but didn't need to do in order to complete the crime?

Read this quote (again if you've read it already) and think about what Carter might actually be saying here! "To the murderer, I believe you have just little bit of a conscience left, and I can assure you that how you left them in that woods is not what they're experiencing today,"

Carter also said: "A question to you. What will those closest to you think when they find out that you brutally murdered two little girls? Only a coward would do such a thing."

Delphi murders update 2019: New suspect sketch, video released

What made Carter / investigators think that the killer had some conscience or possibly remorse over how he left the girls? What makes them think he might care what anyone who knows him might think of him if they knew what he'd done to those kids!? It really sounds to me like the killer may have shown some signs of remorse or shame at what he'd done. The investigators are clear that someone knows and is probably terrified to turn him in. Can you imagine knowing who this is?
Maybe BG could have covered one or both girls, I’ve heard that covering shows the perpetrator may have felt bad about what they had done.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
93
Guests online
254
Total visitors
347

Forum statistics

Threads
608,715
Messages
18,244,485
Members
234,435
Latest member
ProfKim
Back
Top