Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #131

[sunshineray]

I have always hoped she threw it with a strong softball arm into the thick leaves or the creek and BG decided searching was useless.

It was said in a Gray Hughes video, a trusted caller said the killer was there longer than you'd think and was in the area when Libby's dad arrived and was looking around for the girls. Possibly killer hung around longer because he was looking around for Libby's phone?

Starting at 2 hrs 2:40 ...

 

[sunshineray]

Popped on to make 2 quick comments.

1. I just started researching this case after the HLN doc last month, and the deeper I dig the more possible suspects I realize there are. So it is critical that LE gets it right. Imagine if they rushed and brought in the wrong guy and the killer was still out there.

2. I personally think the odds that the perp was some random psycho killer are less than 1%. My money is on there being some connection, direct or indirect.

I think there will be a connection also...to someone in their lives.

 

[sunshineray]

In which situation the girls would say "Oh my god!" - I wonder. It would make more sense, IMO, if a witness saw something terrible between the girls and BG and screamed these three words in her panic. But would it be heard on the tape, when the witness wasn't near BG and Abby/Libby? Is this girl/woman perhaps the person, who (DC said) knows about the murder and doesn't give LE the last puzzle piece? I wondered the whole time, why DC might be sure (he said so), that at least one person definitely knows about the murder, "because BG told them". How does he know??
If it is another person's voice between "Guys - down the hill" and neither Abby's nor Libby's, then I can imagine, why it is still heard and didn't get cut by LE. IMO

I think it's very likely what ISP Carter meant by that is LE thinks the one person killer told is the same one giving them an alibi. JMO

 

[DeDee]

Is it possible that in working with the audio they have that the voice of BG has been altered in some way? Would that maybe account for why no one has said its X?

They've been begging for the public's help in IDing BG by the sound of his voice.

If this is the beginning sequence of events,

Who said, "Guys, ... ?"
Maybe BG then gives a command that we hear as glass breaking static.

Perhaps, BG offers s/t like, "Guys, they're headed your way." Or, "Guys, you can't get away." Then, we hear the infamous:

"Down the Hill."

It's bone chilling, really. Those brave, precious, pretty, young girls, RIP.

GreyHuze stated he can share that Abby is heard on the audio asking, "Is that a gun?" If true, and there's every reason to believe it is, then the firearm is how control over 2 girls was managed.
.

 

[news buff]

I hear what has been suggested here. One must ignore the bubbling, and pay attention to the cadence of sound. It has a starting "OH", then a lower "my", then a louder than the first "GOD"

OH my GOD. Think cadence. ONE two Threeeee.

I'm going to explain it, MOO, as Auditory Pareidolia. The reason is this. I would think that if indeed there was something real to be heard in between the words 'guys', and 'down the hill', LE would have simply cut that portion completely out. I guess my analysis could be wrong, but it would be surprising to me if indeed they left any evidence of one of the girls screaming to be even remotely heard in the released audio files.

But yes, I do hear it.

"auditory pareidolia. Concise definitions of the phenomenon remain elusive, but in clinical circles it’s usually defined relative to the more common visual form—the perception of patterns in randomness where none exist, but via an auditory mode."

Why We Hear Voices in Random Noise - Facts So Romantic - Nautilus

I tried, but do not hear what others say they hear.

 

[MegPTdoc]

I believe it's this one. There are many pages.

IN - Abigail Williams & Liberty German, Delphi, Media, Maps, Timelines NO DISCUSSION

Got it!! Thanks everyone for finding that for me
I’m going to spend some more time really looking in to the structure of the bridge but at first glance the way that BG is walking is not consistent with the structure of the bridge
I totally understand people thinking it could just be related to the uneven surface
But his gait pattern jumped out to me the FIRST time I watched the video
It’s incredibly specific, I’ve developed an eye for neurological gait patterns through my years working in neurological rehabilitation. But I will do my due diligence and take a more thorough look at the structure of the bridge

 

[JudgeJudi]

I'm not sure which interview of his this particular transcript that you're reading came from, but in JMO there could be a word missing in that sentence. I think he said this comment in the context of how the Delphi crime scene is different from those he is typically familiar with, and that the sentence should be: "there was a lot more physical evidence than THAT at that crime scene."

'There was a lot more physical evidence than that at the crime scene, and it's probably not what you would imagine, or what people would think I'm talking about.'

'It was just not your normal "a person was killed here" crime scene, that's probably all I can say about it'.

He said that the scene was 'odd' and displayed at least three 'signatures', which are unique behaviors by the killer. He raised the possibility that elements of the scene had been staged in an attempt to trick investigators by sending them down a false path.

'Even though at the crime scene there was a lot of physical evidence of one sort of another which would lead logically to one person or another, it never led to one particular person.'

'Initially I thought, and I still think, it was somebody local' Ives said of the killer, noting of the hiking trail that 'it's not a tourist spot' and that an outsider would be unlikely to visit.

Ives indicated that there was no reason to believe that the killer knew the two girls would be hiking there that day, as their decision to go for a walk had been spontaneous, and there is no evidence that they were lured to the trail. 'I tend to think it's a local,' Ives said, but adding, 'maybe it was a random murder, maybe it was a serial killer.'

Former prosecutor in unsolved Delphi murders of two teens says they had signature elements | Daily Mail Online

ETA Also here:

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

I’m going to just leave this right here. MON - Deer Creek High Bridge The oldest comment .

 

[mom2chloe]

This is my post from a week or so ago in regards to Ives' comment:
----------

I can see this interpretation based on the "...a lot more physical evidence than that at the crime scene." wording alone. However, when taken into context with the paragraph that came before, it sounds to me that there was a lot more physical evidence at the scene than at a typical, cut and dry murder. JMO

The very first case I handled as prosecuting attorney back in 1987 and 1988 -- a fellow shot his wife in Deer Creek, Indiana. And, he pinned her up against the refrigerator, shot her in the back of the head. She fell on the floor, he shot her twice more in the chest. So, you had a dead person with three bullets in them. They were dead. Um, he was seen at the scene. You know, things like that.

All I can say about the situation with Abby and Libby is that there was a lot more physical evidence than that at the crime scene, and it’s probably not what you would imagine.

Was someone living beneath the bridge or what? I wish we had more info or that LE did or that were close to an arrest and conviction.

 

[mom2chloe]

It was recently said in the HLN show that once LE called off the search the fire was called to bring lightning down to the Monon High Bridge area because one of the girl's phone was pinging there. LE and some fire department personnel returned to search and try to find it.

It's possible Libby dropped it at some point, maybe with purpose, near the crime scene. Why it couldn't lead them to their bodies is a question. Maybe the battery ran out during that search.

Is it possible that they were hastened down the hill and the phone and a shoe were lost?

 

[Charlot123]

I think it's very likely what ISP Carter meant by that is LE thinks the one person killer told is the same one giving them an alibi. JMO

So, not a priest who the killer confided to...
Someone who is still in the killer's life, otherwise, watch how fast that alibi would get thrown out of the window.

What the heck, people think one can be a murderer with one person, and not a murderer with another one?

Whoever thinks they are safe, should
remember the story of Nero Clauduis, the Roman Emperor, the son of Agrippina. Between the two, and separately, the duo murdered several people, and then Nero ended up murdering his mother.

They've been begging for the public's help in IDing BG by the sound of his voice.

If this is the beginning sequence of events,

Who said, "Guys, ... ?"
Maybe BG then gives a command that we hear as glass breaking static.

Perhaps, BG offers s/t like, "Guys, they're headed your way." Or, "Guys, you can't get away." Then, we hear the infamous:

"Down the Hill."

It's bone chilling, really. Those brave, precious, pretty, young girls, RIP.

GreyHuze stated he can share that Abby is heard on the audio asking, "Is that a gun?" If true, and there's every reason to believe it is, then the firearm is how control over 2 girls was managed.
.

I think if the murderer is so religious, LE has to invite the conductors of the choirs from all local churches, and play the audio for them. The person has a wide vocal range. I think it can be more noticeable when one sings.

 

[DeDee]

JMO the killer wasn’t aware Libby had captured a glimpse of him on video and also was using it to record audio. If that were so he’d have no reason to suspect he was about to become the star performer. When DC mentioned “you made mistakes” I think that was one.

State Police: Libby German 'a hero' | wthr.com
“State Police called Liberty "Libby" German "a hero" for thinking to record the suspect while the crime was happening.

"This lady is a hero. There is no doubt. To have the presence of mind to activate the video on her cell phone," ISP Sgt. Tony Slocum said...”

Possessing the BG video with audio recorded by Libby is a miracle. She used her wiles and finesse with her phone equipment to grab a few minutes snapshot into the last and most terrifying moments of her life.

And, then, as a concerted consequence, I believe Libby protected the phone's valuable video. She dropped a shoe nearby as if dropping clues. Her phone was found near her body. Libby is a hero.
.

 

[DeDee]

Tobe said the recording was shorter then people think. Now, where did I hear him saying that? I will scan through the podcast I think it's from. While I do that and report back, this is part of the transcript that's online from the youtube video posted pages back, the hosts of the Down the Hill podcast last month. She talks about what Tobe told her.

MIKE GALANOS: And Barb, one of this places would be the phone. If you have more, why not a little bit more? What do they tell you?

BARBARA MACDONALD: They’re telling us the video’s nowhere near as long as a lot of people think it. People online have speculated it is several minutes— 8, 9 minutes long. The Sheriff tells me it’s not anywhere near that long and that there’s nothing else from the suspect on it. He doesn’t say any other words on it. And Casey, I think you speculated awhile back that Libby probably put the phone into her pocket to hide it from him and there could be more audio. We do know they still are doing testing on that cellphone to see if there’s anything else on it… if there’s anything else within that video. They’re exploring “items” I think was the word the Sheriff used, within that video

Just an educated assumption, but it seems the majority of the audio is prior to the violent encounter, perhaps, moments after the SnapChat was uploaded is appx time when the beginning of audio clip is available.
.

 

[janewall]

Was someone living beneath the bridge or what? I wish we had more info or that LE did or that were close to an arrest and conviction.

BBM. I guess I get fanciful late at night, but the other night I was wondering something similar - was there anyone in the area at the time who had strong possessive feelings about the bridge, and didn't like others to frequent it? (A troll under the bridge, as it were?) It's not unheard of for squatters, transients, vagrants or other drifters to try to intimidate others away from what they consider 'their' turf, even though it doesn't belong to them in the eyes of the law or anyone else. If a person was living rough in the area, or even if they used the parkland and wooded land immediately surrounding the bridge as a retreat during their free time, and if that person had a hostile or paranoid worldview about 'intruders', they might think a violent attack on two youngsters would discourage townspeople from using the area recreationally.

I'm just spitballing here, speculating wildly – but with a dearth of known facts, that's what we do. So take all of the above with many grains of salt.

 

[amickey]

While i am not new to this case, I ama lurker so apologize if this has been posted before. What I am struck by is the speed that this was done. They were dropped off ~ 1:35, posted photos about ~2:07, and they think it was over shortly after (forgive me if my time is off). I don't have the mind of a killer, but it seems someone who was in it for the thrill would want more time? I don't mean to sound insensitive, and I know there are folks like the DC Snipers. But I remember reading that they thought by the time Libby's dad showed it was over...and that's only two hours from when they were dropped off...

 

[Angels27]

It was said in a Gray Hughes video, a trusted caller said the killer was there longer than you'd think and was in the area when Libby's dad arrived and was looking around for the girls. Possibly killer hung around longer because he was looking around for Libby's phone?

Starting at 2 hrs 2:40 ...

Yeah I thought that when DC said the car was there til 5 pm at the CPS building. I never thought he left early.

 

[TL4S]

Transcripts of Dr. Oz Feb. 2021 interview with Ives.

Dr. Oz Delphi Murders Video: Robert Ives Transcript - CrimeLights

 

[Yemelyan]

While i am not new to this case, I ama lurker so apologize if this has been posted before. What I am struck by is the speed that this was done. They were dropped off ~ 1:35, posted photos about ~2:07, and they think it was over shortly after (forgive me if my time is off). I don't have the mind of a killer, but it seems someone who was in it for the thrill would want more time? I don't mean to sound insensitive, and I know there are folks like the DC Snipers. But I remember reading that they thought by the time Libby's dad showed it was over...and that's only two hours from when they were dropped off...

This is going to sound strange but I think we, normal people (hopefully) reading this, do not have any useful conception of how long a murder like this "should" take.

Obviously there are some gruesome cases where offenders kept their victims alive for many hours or days, prolonging their experience of the crime. However, if we look at what statistics tell us about kids like Abby and Libby who are abducted and murdered, we see that most missing children who have been abducted by a predator are killed in a very short period of time after their abduction. In fact, looking at the statistics I think you'll see that the Delphi murders fit into the usual pattern seen:

46.8% of abducted and murdered child victims are dead within one hour of contact with their killer
76.2% within 3 hours
88.5% within the first 24 hours after being abducted
(data from Keppel and White child abduction/murder study)

If you want an example that these child predators can act quickly, look at the sad case of Gabi Doolan - she was kidnapped, raped, sodomized, murdered (strangulation and drowning) and because the alarm was raised very soon after she disappeared, searchers found her within THE HALF HOUR. Her murderer kidnapped her and did all that plus conceal the area of the crime and was back with the other parents in just 30 minutes.

 

[TL4S]

This is going to sound strange but I think we, normal people (hopefully) reading this, do not have any useful conception of how long a murder like this "should" take.

Obviously there are some gruesome cases where offenders kept their victims alive for many hours or days, prolonging their experience of the crime. However, if we look at what statistics tell us about kids like Abby and Libby who are abducted and murdered, we see that most missing children are killed in a very short period of time after their abduction. In fact, looking at the statistics I think you'll see that the Delphi murders fit into the usual pattern seen:

46.8% of abducted and murdered child victims are dead within one hour of contact with their killer
76.2% within 3 hours
88.5 within the first 24 hours after being abducted
(data from Keppel and White child abduction/murder study)

If you want an example that these child predators can act quickly, look at the sad case of Gabi Doolan - she was kidnapped, raped, sodomized, murdered (strangulation and drowning) and because the alarm was raised very soon after she disappeared, searchers found her within THE HALF HOUR. Her murderer kidnapped her and did all that plus conceal the area of the crime and was back with the other parents in just 30 minutes.

I don't know much about murder statistics or behaviors, but I imagine murderers in a heightened state, almost like a high. Whether out of rage, fear, or the thrill, I picture adrenaline surging the killer forward, especially in these quick killings. Maybe things happen in a sort of frenzy? I don't mean the killer isn't in control, but just physically and emotionally heightened?

 

[TL4S]

Dbm... double post.