Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #132

[Dotrat]

1 is a set (2 feet) and 3 is a set also.

True, wish they made that distinction though, usually it’s, we found several sets of footprints if indeed there are more than one set left by 1 person with 2 feet. . Just my take, wonder which it actually is.

 

[MistyWaters]

I really don't think the bodies were moved. It would have been very difficult based on size of the larger victim. moo

https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/seeking-info/liberty-german/@@download.pdf

Nope, not moved according to LE.

Sheriff Leazenby continues to answer double homicide questions | Carroll County Comet
Q. Do you know if the girls were found where they were killed or if they were moved post mortem?

A. Answered previously. Found where they were killed.

Adding the link to the first set of Comet’s Q &A, may be of interest to others.

County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers | Carroll County Comet

 

[Boxer]

Just a question to see if I understand your point...would an example of what you're talking about be, a person wants to commit a murder for "practical" reasons. Say, the victim knows some damaging information about the offender and that's the motivation for the killing. But the offender knows that this motivation may become obvious to investigators and put suspicion on him. So, after killing his victim, he stages the scene so that it appears the murder was the work of a sexually motivated killer?

Remember that signatures go beyond what was necessary to commit the crime. So it would not be a signature, in this example, to stage the scene by merely leaving the victim unclothed, because that would be a typical part of a sexual assault. So the "stager" is going to have to go farther than that in his faked behaviors. What signature behaviors can he fake? Mutilation? Necrophilia? Bite marks? I guess sexual posing or bondage would be the "easiest" to fake. But most people who don't actually have a deep seated fantasy of carrying out these acts would have a very hard time, IMO, faking them, because you still have to intimately handle a dead body. People who don't kill for the sadistic pleasure of it, but for utilitarian reasons, leave a completely different kind of crime scene. IMO there would be red flags for the investigation that a staging of these acts had occurred.

Now, if you're thinking that a signature is something like "leaving a deck of cards at the scene," then yes, I can see why you'd think that would be an easy "signature" to stage. But that's the kind of thing that occurs in books and movies, not what is typically seen at crime scenes. JMO

I think with the FBI's eyes on this from the beginning - we know that behavioral analysts were involved immediately according to the interview with FBI supervisor Abbott - investigators have a handle on whether any aspects of the crime scene were staged to mislead.

MOO would suppose anything out of the ordinary, for instance the GSK used a certain knot using the victims' own shoe laces.

 

[FrostedGlass]

That was the point I planned to make. FBI and specifically Georgia FBI were responsible for the change of direction in 2019. Then the presser was butchered so badly by Carter I'm convinced the FBI was irate and implored Indiana to quickly offer the clarifications, including that the older sketch was no longer a person of interest. But Doug Carter doesn't want to go that route and he has steadily persuaded others from ISP to embrace the combo platter.

Otherwise, regarding People Magazine Investigates:

* IMO, you've really got to be a contortionist to watch that program and conclude they have any clue who did it

* Hour program that was wasted to half hour value via all the senseless examination of the non-suspects. I fast forwarded through all of that garbage. Delphi has never had a decent suspect. Why did People Magazine think it had to follow its standard format of traipsing through all of the names? I kept thinking that the wasted time in those segments was symbolic of Delphi case examination in general. Sites like this one and the Reddit subreddit that don't allow doxing offer vastly superior content than ones desperately trying to solve the case by name

* The female hosts were good. The one guy Chris Harris had remarkable propensity to screw up every time reference by 15-40 minutes

* The recreations were very poor and misleading and should have been skipped. I'm referring to the footprints and Libby's shoe. Basically every time the show used a homemade visual it erred. At least they picked some good photos, including the best angle of the crime scene, from just above the shelf

* Most interesting aspects were glimpses of the FBI computer, and Leazenby later emphasizing that local sex offenders were checked first. That's why I've always said that Leazenby thinks first and foremost of the local creeps. He can't imagine Bridge Guy outside that group

* I didn't know Libby tried golf. I was impressed to hear that. I'm not surprised we haven't heard more about it in four years. Tough game. Very easy to embarrass yourself. Skilled athletes who excel in everything else can absolutely butcher the golf swing and give up quickly. That's particularly prevalent among digital generations.

* Someone asked if the theater ramp was homemade. It looked natural to me. But keep in mind I visited during fall with heavy leaf cover. Terrain wasn't easy to decipher.

I was the one who asked about the theater ramp and thank you for your answer.

In this post, you mentioned the pic of the crime scene taken from just above the shelf. Is the shelf you're referring to the sandbar-looking area on the south side, near where they most likely crossed?

 

[Yemelyan]

MOO would suppose anything out of the ordinary, for instance the GSK used a certain knot using the victims' own shoe laces.

That's an example of the kind of thing where, unless investigators already know of other crimes in series that share that feature, it's quite difficult to say that it's a signature, though.

For example, GSK didn't always use shoelaces, did he? Sometimes he used strips of towels that he ripped? So what a criminologist might say is that the signature was actually the pleasure that GSK got out of the act of binding his victims, not the specific knot or the shoelaces. It was a signature behavior that he evolved and tinkered with, using different materials as the fancy struck him.

This is why it's very hard to "fake" a signature, IMO. The profiler isn't looking at the objects involved so much as the behavior behind their use.

 

[Boxer]

MOO it would be hard to say of the suspect is quirky, or if the way he did things or left things were purposefully quirky.
Possibley evidence left was unconsciously left and it was odd.

 

[Levi]

Crime Scene Investigator Sheryl McCollum and former detective Christine Mannina will join me on YouTube LIVE at 6 PM ET / 5 CT to discuss Abby and Libby's case. They've recently visited the trail where Abby and Libby were killed. Here is the link to watch:

 

[:+:MrTT:+:]

Crime Scene Investigator Sheryl McCollum and former detective Christine Mannina will join me on YouTube LIVE at 6 PM ET / 5 CT to discuss Abby and Libby's case. They've recently visited the trail where Abby and Libby were killed. Here is the link to watch:

Looking forward too it. Thank you for the notice and the link.

 

[DeDee]

Crime Scene Investigator Sheryl McCollum and former detective Christine Mannina will join me on YouTube LIVE at 6 PM ET / 5 CT to discuss Abby and Libby's case. They've recently visited the trail where Abby and Libby were killed. Here is the link to watch:

New link:

 

[WeathersRabbits]

I have a really big write-up on this case. It's basically a massive re-cap of the case. Should I post it or would that bog the threads down. Either, way won't hurt my feelings! I was just kind of thinking maybe a detailed re-cap of events could help. Also, I'm not sure I understand the initials rule so going to ask for clarification Basically, initial everyone's name except for the victims? What about suspects talked about in the news? Can I leave in LE names?

 

[Pimlipo]

As the sketches were made from peoples accounts of someone that they saw out there that day, would these same people be asked by LE to identify against pictures of potential POI’s or people tipped in??

 

[Sillybilly]

I have a really big write-up on this case. It's basically a massive re-cap of the case. Should I post it or would that bog the threads down. Either, way won't hurt my feelings! I was just kind of thinking maybe a detailed re-cap of events could help. Also, I'm not sure I understand the initials rule so going to ask for clarification Basically, initial everyone's name except for the victims? What about suspects talked about in the news? Can I leave in LE names?

Hi WeathersRabbits,

Please submit what you have to me via PM and we can review it.

Thanks

 

[MistyWaters]

As the sketches were made from peoples accounts of someone that they saw out there that day, would these same people be asked by LE to identify against pictures of potential POI’s or people tipped in??

Only my speculation but ordinarily sketches are created to aid LE in identification without further involvement of witnesses in scrutinizing all the tips. In this case the prosecution will require far more evidence to convict beyond a person IDing a visual resemblance to an accused since that witness didn’t see the actual crime taking place.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Only my speculation but ordinarily sketches are created to aid LE in identification without further involvement of witnesses in scrutinizing all the tips. In this case the prosecution will require far more evidence to convict beyond a person IDing a visual resemblance to an accused since that witness didn’t see the actual crime taking place.

I agree that the sketches are of no value in this scenario.
I would hope though that LE would show these people who claimed to have seen the killer that day, pictures of POIs(only ones that LE has at least some evidence pointing toward them being the killer) and ask them “is this the person you saw that day”.

 

[SamisDad]

What would be the fastest route out of the area on a Quad?

 

[MistyWaters]

I agree that the sketches are of no value in this scenario.
I would hope though that LE would show these people who claimed to have seen the killer that day, pictures of POIs(only ones that LE has at least some evidence pointing toward them being the killer) and ask them “is this the person you saw that day”.

I wasn’t intending to insinuate sketches are of no value as the sketch is supposed to be representative of the person they claim they sighted. The problem is always how accurate was their memory. If they were shown pictures and ID’d somebody who looked nothing like the sketch then the accuracy of their recall would surely come into question.

More than four years is also a really long time to remember what somebody looked like, a reason LE rely on sketch artists to attempt to capture that earlier memory when it’s as fresh as possible.

JMO

 

[reallylikereally]

Was it common for Abby to sleep over at Libby's? Or vise versa? And do we know anything about how this sleep over materialized (were they hanging out on the previous day etc.)?

Also, does anyone have any more information on the circumstances surrounding the FBI agent who was in Delphi at the time of Libby's and Abby's disappearance , above and beyond his visiting family and participating in the search?

Lastly, it is my understanding that it was Toby's decision to end the search at midnight. I will just say that in imho this decision is truly bizarre. The number of nonsensical rationales I have heard from people trying to 'justify' this decision is mind-boggling?

<modsnip>

 

[Yemelyan]

As the sketches were made from peoples accounts of someone that they saw out there that day, would these same people be asked by LE to identify against pictures of potential POI’s or people tipped in??

I would think that LE would be very careful to not have witnesses view a lot of lineups (i.e. every time they have a new POI), whether that lineup is photo or in person. They would probably wait to do it until they were extremely confident in a single suspect. The reason being, cognitive research has shown that there is something about these three actions:
1. the process of making a composite from witness memory
2. a witness being asked to view images in lineups on multiple occasions, especially if a particular individual appears in all of them
3. long delays between viewings of lineups

that all alter memory so that erroneous identification occurs in a high number of cases. Asking witnesses to view many lineups and long delays between asking witnesses to identify people both have especially negative effects on accurate recall through familiarity bias.

This article talks about some of the challenges I listed here: The effects of repeated lineups and delay on eyewitness identification | Cognitive Research: Principles and Implications | Full Text

All MOO.

 

[JnRyan]

Only my speculation but ordinarily sketches are created to aid LE in identification without further involvement of witnesses in scrutinizing all the tips. In this case the prosecution will require far more evidence to convict beyond a person IDing a visual resemblance to an accused since that witness didn’t see the actual crime taking place.

I agree, although LE might show photos of POI's to the witnesses. It might lead LE to do other work like get DNA - either willingly or from something the POI discards. But the eye witness accounts are just as likely to be of someone LE could not account for that day. Like that vehicle at the abandoned CPS building.

 

[sunshineray]

I wasn’t intending to insinuate sketches are of no value as the sketch is supposed to be representative of the person they claim they sighted. The problem is always how accurate was their memory. If they were shown pictures and ID’d somebody who looked nothing like the sketch then the accuracy of their recall would surely come into question.

More than four years is also a really long time to remember what somebody looked like, a reason LE rely on sketch artists to attempt to capture that earlier memory when it’s as fresh as possible.

JMO

I would agree that 4 years is a very long time to remember. I also think that young witness, the girl who had a face to face and a little dialogue with someone who made her very uncomfortable, may have an edge at recalling a face because her inner alarm was triggered.