Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #134

[SMK777]

I have not followed this case in detail since the beginning....but I have been reading a lot over the last couple of days. One thing I have a question about is whether there was usable DNA found at the scene and whether they have run the DNA through genealogy databases?

Many people doubt that they have the killer’s DNA at all. If so, and there’s certainly no guarantee— then they’d best be checking it in all ways possible.

 

[Pyschsandi]

I'm not seeing what you're seeing. I think that people desperately want this case to be solved, so they're seeing what they want to see. I can't rule out BJC, for several things do fit. I'm far from convinced, however. His recent crime seemed very impulsive and very sloppy. If he's BG, then he's not the highly organized perp that I had envisioned.

I don’t think BG was as organized as many people think. He was seen by several people, he didn’t notice the phone in Libby’s hand filming him, according to LE, he left a lot of evidence. His great move was probably pulling out a gun or knife and making them go down the hill. I think he had a lot of luck that he has gotten away with his crime for so long. MOO

 

[SMK777]

I don’t think BG was as organized as many people think. He was seen by several people, he didn’t notice the phone in Libby’s hand filming him, according to LE, he left a lot of evidence. His great move was probably pulling out a gun or knife and making them go down the hill. I think he had a lot of luck that he has gotten away with his crime for so long. MOO

Agreed. I never viewed him as calculating or brilliant.

 

[sandy_80]

I don’t think BG was as organized as many people think. He was seen by several people, he didn’t notice the phone in Libby’s hand filming him, according to LE, he left a lot of evidence. His great move was probably pulling out a gun or knife and making them go down the hill. I think he had a lot of luck that he has gotten away with his crime for so long. MOO

right ..if he was seen indeed after a bloody murder and wasn't detected.. then he is not sloppy ..

 

[Doghairrules]

Thanks for your explanation and sorry if there's been a misunderstanding. I don't think I nor other posters thought the 2 scenarios are the same.

One involved 1 victim, the other involved 2. One outdoors, one indoors. One in a risky situation when LE had just spoken to the perp about the missing girl, the other on a walking trail with no LE in the vicinity and no active reports of missing girls.

From what I've read on the subject, pedophiles are often impulsive and strike when they see an opportunity. The scenarios and MO's aren't always going to be the same. JMO

I'm also reserving judgment until hearing something from LE. Follow enough cases and you learn not to get your hopes up too quickly.

the impulsive thing is interesting to me and another place where there is a match to what we know of JBC. He seems to totally lack impulse control. He assaulted a police officer, he assaulted a correctional officer, he got in a fight almost immediately after getting a cell mate, and the taking and assaulting of the little girl is almost certainly impulsive. Eventually the impulsiveness will get you caught.

 

[Yemelyan]

I have not followed this case in detail since the beginning....but I have been reading a lot over the last couple of days. One thing I have a question about is whether there was usable DNA found at the scene and whether they have run the DNA through genealogy databases?

In February this question was presented to the Carroll County Sheriff in a newspaper article and he answered thusly:

Q. Is there partial DNA or a full DNA profile of the suspect?

If there is DNA, has it been run against a genealogy DNA database?

A. This also speaks to an evidentiary aspect of the investigation.

So he elected not to answer the question, citing the integrity of the investigation.
Source: County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers | Carroll County Comet

However, a few weeks later a documentary on the murders aired on HLN and he was asked if LE have DNA in the case and he answered that they do have DNA but they do not know if it's the killer's DNA.

We know that investigators in the Delphi case previously consulted with ex-criminologist Paul Holes, who was involved with the solving of the Golden State Killer case using genetic genealogy: ‘They Have A Tough Investigation Ahead:' Paul Holes On The Delphi Murders | Oxygen Official Site

IMO the only point in consulting with Holes specifically is to gain his perspective on genetic genealogy techniques. So from this we can guess that Delphi investigators hoped to use these methods or at least look into them. It should be noted that Holes believes, per that article, that their road will be a difficult one. This technique would be a legal strategy to pursue if the DNA Delphi investigators have is usable.

The other piece of info that pertains to this is that familial DNA searches in crime databases aren't legal in Indiana at this time. This is the method that caught the Grim Sleeper serial killer in California - investigators had unmatched DNA from his crimes and when his son was arrested for an unrelated felony, his DNA came back as a partial match for the Grim Sleeper. This told investigators that they needed to look at close relatives of the son as the contributor for the unsolved rapes/murders. This investigative method is allowed in about 15 states but Indiana is not currently one of them.

 

[Angelcat13]

Composite sketches are always “off”. For me, both composite sketches are at least suggestive of his features: The nose in particular, and the eyebrows and eyes.

A bit off-topic, but this is a TRUE news story from 3 years ago that involved a police sketch ad might provide a much-needed bit of a laugh.

 

[margarita25]

A bit off-topic, but this is a TRUE news story from 3 years ago that involved a police sketch ad might provide a much-needed bit of a laugh.

(This is one of my favorite news videos of all time. The reporter’s reaction. I roll on the floor every time I see it!!)

They actually caught the guy based on this sketch too!

This terrible sketch actually helped police find a suspect

—

Eta: There is a plethora of funny sketches articles and videos out there if you google. There are even a couple where the sketches look just like the reporters speaking.

 

[SMK777]

the impulsive thing is interesting to me and another place where there is a match to what we know of JBC. He seems to totally lack impulse control. He assaulted a police officer, he assaulted a correctional officer, he got in a fight almost immediately after getting a cell mate, and the taking and assaulting of the little girl is almost certainly impulsive. Eventually the impulsiveness will get you caught.

Absolutely. And there’s no reason to believe that the Delphi murders was not an impulsive act, either.

 

[lilacstarz]

In February this question was presented to the Carroll County Sheriff in a newspaper article and he answered thusly:

Q. Is there partial DNA or a full DNA profile of the suspect?

If there is DNA, has it been run against a genealogy DNA database?

A. This also speaks to an evidentiary aspect of the investigation.

So he elected not to answer the question, citing the integrity of the investigation.
Source: County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers | Carroll County Comet

However, a few weeks later a documentary on the murders aired on HLN and he was asked if LE have DNA in the case and he answered that they do have DNA but they do not know if it's the killer's DNA.

We know that investigators in the Delphi case previously consulted with ex-criminologist Paul Holes, who was involved with the solving of the Golden State Killer case using genetic genealogy: ‘They Have A Tough Investigation Ahead:' Paul Holes On The Delphi Murders | Oxygen Official Site

IMO the only point in consulting with Holes specifically is to gain his perspective on genetic genealogy techniques. So from this we can guess that Delphi investigators hoped to use these methods or at least look into them. It should be noted that Holes believes, per that article, that their road will be a difficult one. This technique would be a legal strategy to pursue if the DNA Delphi investigators have is usable.

The other piece of info that pertains to this is that familial DNA searches in crime databases aren't legal in Indiana at this time. This is the method that caught the Grim Sleeper serial killer in California - investigators had unmatched DNA from his crimes and when his son was arrested for an unrelated felony, his DNA came back as a partial match for the Grim Sleeper. This told investigators that they needed to look at close relatives of the son as the contributor for the unsolved rapes/murders. This investigative method is allowed in about 15 states but Indiana is not currently one of them.

Thanks so much. That is exactly what I was looking for. I also didn't realize that DNA crime related genealogy searches were not permissible in Indiana.

 

[SMK777]

right ..if he was seen indeed after a bloody murder and wasn't detected.. then he is not sloppy ..

Not necessarily true. He may have been seen briefly, at a distance. He may not have had a lot of blood on him at all.

People aren’t thinking of a double murder having been committed when they possibly pass someone on a trail.

I’ve always believed the Delphi murders were opportunistic and impulsive. From years of reading true crime books, it’s stunning what people are able to get away with for years— hiding, as it were, in plain sight.

 

[margarita25]

Thanks so much. That is exactly what I was looking for. I also didn't realize that DNA crime related genealogy searches were not permissible in Indiana.

Delphi murder investigators using same DNA tech that led to Fort Wayne cold case arrest
July 18, 2018

“Investigators working on the Delphi case are now using the same DNA technology used to arrest a man near Fort Wayne this week, suspected in the 1988 murder of a little girl.”

—

Feb 13, 2019
“In 2018 came fresh hope with the arrest of John Miller, who admitted to killing 8-year-old April Tinsley in Ft. Wayne 30 years earlier.

That case was solved with DNA evidence by Parabon Nanolabs. Investigators in the Delphi case worked closely with those who cracked the Tinsley case to see if their methods or findings could help solve the murders of Abby and Libby. Parabon Nanolabs declined an interview and state police would not say if the same test was being used in the investigation.

But their website shows technology can match DNA to someone already in a database. It can also use information about physical appearance found in the genes “to generate new leads on unknown suspects.”

CBS4 asked Indiana State Police why the investigation has taken two years if DNA evidence was recovered. Sgt. Riley responded only, “I’m not going to make a comment on that.”...
Investigation ongoing two-years after murders of Abby Williams, Libby German in Delphi

(post by @MistyWaters)

—

Familial DNA search might unlock Delphi killer's identity
June 1, 2018

“If there is DNA evidence from Libby and Abby's killing, what if police ran a search using familial DNA? If the suspect's family member — a brother or father, for example — has been arrested or convicted of felony charges, familial DNA might be the break that's needed in the case that shook the country.

“Crime runs in families,” he said. “No one disputes that. Ask any beat cop.”“

Snip

“Recently asked about familial DNA searches and the homicide investigation into German and Williams' death, Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby said, “Obviously the answer hasn‘t come to the surface, yet.

“This is out of the box, so what can it hurt?”“

Snip

““That’s being discussed," Leazenby said of the outcome of Holland's call, "but there hasn’t been a decision made yet. It’s on the table.”

“It might help us reach success.””

Snip

“Meanwhile, if there's DNA from the Delphi killings, it's not been run through familial DNA search. Yet.”

 

[Yemelyan]

Thanks so much. That is exactly what I was looking for. I also didn't realize that DNA crime related genealogy searches were not permissible in Indiana.

Correct - genetic genealogy searches using databases like GEDMatch or proprietary databases that companies like Parabon have created ARE legal (this is what was done in the April Tinsley case). Using state or national crime databases to look for criminals that are close familial genetic relatives, thus furthering the pool of POI to be looked into, are NOT allowed at this time in Indiana.

The difference is that genetic genealogy looks at the genetic information of potential close relatives that are "regular people" who opted into their genetic information being shared via open databases. Familial searching in crime databases is based on DNA required from felons, which right now is closed to partial match searching in Indiana. In CA or NY, it is legal to do.

 

[SMK777]

(This is one of my favorite news videos of all time. The reporter’s reaction. I roll on the floor every time I see it!!)

They actually caught the guy based on this sketch too!

This terrible sketch actually helped police find a suspect

—

Eta: There is a plethora of funny sketches articles and videos out there if you google. There are even a couple where the sketches look just like the reporters speaking.

If that composite sketch matched the suspect, then certainly there’s hope in this case.

 

[taylorss]

right ..if he was seen indeed after a bloody murder and wasn't detected.. then he is not sloppy ..

I’m thinking he was not noticeable or identifiable

 

[Yemelyan]

There is another reason that the genetic piece of this case could be tricky.

If whatever sample LE is mixed with both a victim and the killer's DNA contributions, IMO this is not always a straightforward forensic problem to amplify the DNA from the "unknown contributor" in isolation from the victim's DNA. Though the technical ability to identify trace amounts of contributor DNA in mixed samples has advanced a great deal over time, and though there are guidelines as to how this process is done, at some point, a forensic scientist is going to be making what basically amounts to a subjective decision as to which alleles are present, which ones might have dropped out, or have been masked. IMO if the sample is mixed in the Delphi investigation, they may have more than one laboratory working on the problem as they each may have proprietary methods of figuring this out.

In fact, this could be one reason that LE doesn't really know if they have the killer's DNA yet. If the original sample was mixed from multiple contributors, the issue may not be that they just haven't figured out whose profile it is - they may not even know yet if an accurate profile has been generated.

All MOO since we don't know the quality, quantity, or provenance of the DNA that LE has.

 

[taylorss]

it couldn't be impulsive cause he had a weapon or two.. he was simi disguised .. there was preparations and planning...he also left a staged crime scene ..even staging a scene.. in the very limited time table he had couldnt be fully impulsive

Imo I imagine all that as just being himself -
a srsly violent person who recently spent 10+ years in prison. If he used any weapon against A&L then IMO good chance he carried it all the time and was always ready to use it. Moo

That’s cuz I figure, imoo, he was a bum in that park. Unless he had a camp, he’d have his same normal stuff on him.

the ‘local bum’ angle offers explanation for how he could’ve been there but unseen - no one looks at bums. And prison term explains local but unknown- he knew a great off-the-map spot but it seems no one there even knew his name JMOO

 

[Nancy1954]

@ Pyschsandi.. I think that the monster BG was organized enough to have gotten away with Abby and Libby's murders for 4 years. We don't know whether he noticed the phone in Libby's hand or not, our opinions are just that, opinions. If anyone actually knows the answer to that it is LE. Whether he left a lot of evidence or not is moot if it can't be directly tied to the monster, and so far it hasn't been.

 

[SMK777]

Imo I imagine all that as just being himself -
a srsly violent person who recently spent 10+ years in prison. If he used any weapon against A&L then IMO good chance he carried it all the time and was always ready to use it. Moo

That’s cuz I figure, imoo, he was a bum in that park. Unless he had a camp, he’d have his same normal stuff on him.

the ‘local bum’ angle offers explanation for how he could’ve been there but unseen - no one looks at bums. And prison term explains local but unknown- he knew a great off-the-map spot but it seems no one there even knew his name JMOO

I agree. He camped out a lot and had his stuff with him. <modsnip>

And yes, he was both in the area but not part of the community.
I never bought into the theory that it would be some solid, well-respected member of the community.

<modsnip>

Most crimes go unpunished. Many murders do, for many years, unless someone talks. <modsnip>

 

[JnRyan]

I'm not seeing what you're seeing. I think that people desperately want this case to be solved, so they're seeing what they want to see. I can't rule out BJC, for several things do fit. I'm far from convinced, however. His recent crime seemed very impulsive and very sloppy. If he's BG, then he's not the highly organized perp that I had envisioned.

I can see a resemblance to sketch #1, but certainly not #2. At least with his present appearance, I don't know about 4 years ago. Of course, if we go by ISP Superintendent Carter and the killer is 'somewhere in between the two', then I can see a possibility. Then again, if I walked through the town of Delphi I could probably find a half dozen men that would be 'somewhere in between the two'. (I can't ever recall a case where LE gives us a multiple choice of features like we're playing Mr. Potato Head.)
I have a hard time trying to figure out if the killer in Delphi is an organized killer or just very lucky. Even other serial killers such as Bundy and Keys got sloppy toward the end.
What doesn't do it for me is LE is taking way too long to say he is it. According to Sheriff Leazenby they have a print (partial?) and DNA (the killer's?) and who knows what else like maybe a shoe size from track coming through the mud out of the creek. And we have silence after 2 weeks. There are those that say, "Oh, it takes time in the lab to process DNA and fingerprints." With the head person of the ISP and the FBI involved and the high level of exposure I can imagine this POI had his bio data moved to the top of the list. I was off that band wagon early this last week even though I would love to be wrong.