Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #135

[JnRyan]

Don't forget to differentiate between primary and secondary psychopaths.

All these attempts to differentiate people on the psychopathy spectrum are a bit academic. Psychopaths, sociopaths, and narcissists are basically the same thing—more similar than Coke and Pepsi.

All of this is too deep for me. Especially after reading Drs Babiak and Hare's "Snakes in Suits - When Psychopaths Go To Work" and hearing Dr. Babiak speak at conference on fraud and forensic accounting. I simply chalk it up to 'he ain't wired right in the head'.

 

[MistyWaters]

Ok- thanks!
I watched the video in the article and got the impression she (CJ) was saying she wasn’t on the trails with the girls (meaning whomever the girls may have been that observed the alleged individual in black, not necessarily meaning with Abby & Libby).
Just my interpretation when I watched it. It’s always interesting how things can be interpreted in different ways.
Memorial grows as police continue search for Delphi girls' killer | wthr.com

Oh yes, that interpretation is possible as well.

Also considering C added the “man in black” story might just be a rumour indicates to me she hadn’t spoken directly to the friends who allegedly sighted the man in black, instead she heard it from others. Because if she’d talked to her friends directly, there’d be no reason to consider it may’ve been a rumour, rather it would be who they claimed to have seen. As LE have never mentioned the “man in black” at all, my only conclusion is it was indeed was only a rumour and that’s why it has never been mentioned again.

If not for Libby’s video, who knows, a “man in black” may’ve became the description of the mystery killer.

 

[MistyWaters]

Don't forget to differentiate between primary and secondary psychopaths.

All these attempts to differentiate people on the psychopathy spectrum are a bit academic. Psychopaths, sociopaths, and narcissists are basically the same thing—more similar than Coke and Pepsi.

Yes very true, or for us to differentiate between the taste of Coke and Pepsi without knowing what either tastes like in advance is virtually impossible. The study of the spectrum is a specialized field, albeit quite fascinating.

Are Murderers Unfairly Labeled Psychopaths?

 

[rypj84]

^^ LINK : I just stumbled about: Monon High Bridge is the formerly Deer Creek Trestle.

Good eye, my friend!

 

[news buff]

There were no friends with Abby and Libby that day. A widely spread rumour that another friend had earlier planned to go with them that day but changed her mind at the last minute was also refuted by BP. BP has further stated no one saw the girls that day on the trails (other than the killer obviously) as it just happened there was a lull in other walkers at the time. But I’ve watched too many videos, so I’m sorry I don’t recall the specific source. I’m hoping someone else might.

Not meaning any disrespect, but how would BP know that no one else saw the girls? What about the couple under the bridge?

 

[MistyWaters]

Not meaning any disrespect, but how would BP know that no one else saw the girls? What about the couple under the bridge?

She didn’t say but it was also her who offered up the information about Libby’s dad talking to FSG, who’d noticed the couple, while explaining the steps DG took when he arrived to pick up the girls. So I don’t think we can assume she knows nothing,

For all we know the couple under the bridge, the FSG, both Libby’s dad and of course BP all know each other and further conversations took place with everyone later again that same evening while the girls were still considered missing. If so I can certainly understand why they’ve never been referred to by name as it seems virtually everyone even remotely associated to this case has been considered as a possible suspect by SM and who would want that.

 

[Falling Down]

In the beginning, I had the thought that the killer was familiar with the area because he knew about the area off the trails where the crime scene was. Now as time goes on, I'm of the opinion that just knowing about the existence of the trail and how to get there may be just as important, if not more important. And even if the trail was not there 10-15 years prior, how long had the private road underneath the bridge been there? Could this killer have been a visitor to the area walking down that road? Just hanging out or maybe even going down to the creek to fish?

I've looked at images from both Google Earth and USGS of the area, going back to roughly 1962-ish. Prior to abandonment of the bridge, the properties close to the gorge on the south side of it looked a bit different, one big factor at play after abandonment was much of the RR property along there was acquired by land owners. I'm guessing 90's.

C.R. 625 leads to the driveway. It once ended under the bridge. Looks like the house where the homeowner that wasn't home that day has been there since the 90's. Images courtesy Google Earth, from 2017, 2005, and 1992, a feature on there allows a user to go back to previous Google and USGS images from years ago.

 

[FromGermany1]

Despite what I hear in some theories, I don't believe this killer knew either of the girls. (There is probably a small chance he had seen them somewhere before and/or maybe they had seen him, but none of the parties knew names.) The degree of planning, if any, that went into this is an interesting topic. For example, did the killer park at the far end of the cemetery or at the now demolished CPS building? That would almost seem to indicate that when this killer parked his vehicle he knew he was going to do something - kill, abduct, rape - when he went there. (I suppose the argument could be made that this killer always did this as he was always on the prowl for a victim.) OTH, if this was PURELY opportunistic he could have parked where everyone else usually parked. I do believe the choice of victims was opportunistic. If a petite 5', 100 pound blonde 20 something woman had been where Abigail and Liberty were that person would have been the victim instead. For Abigail and Liberty it was wrong place, wrong time.

I think, if a killer is now hiding in plain sight for 4 years, he also might have parked "in plain sight" (CPS building) and rather not at the "hidden" cemetery. Where would a car with a foreign license plate (if it is the case) be less noticeable? Openly on the side of a road might have been the better place, which suggested innocence and saved him being trapped within a tight space. The killer seems brazen enough, to handle his "missions" this way, always perhaps (if Delphi wasn't his first rodeo). IMO

 

[FromGermany1]

Carter also believes the killer has a connection to Delphi, and ABC News contributor and former FBI agent Brad Garrett agrees, noting that the hiking trail is probably too remote to attract outsiders.

"Unless someone absolutely somehow studied that [trail] in great depth, they would not know specifically where certain things were," added the sheriff.

'Epitome of evil': Delphi double murder still a mystery 3 years later

 

[FromGermany1]

When she attended a memorial motorcycle ride for Abby and Libby last month, Marchese said, “I had a feeling [the killer] was there … that he was watching all these people.”
Mystery surrounds Indiana murder of 2 teen girls: ‘We cannot fail on this case’

He might have participated in that memorial motorcycle ride with his own machine perhaps - who knows. Unfortunately, the presence of a poi - whoever it might be - doesn't prove anything.
(I stumbled about this while searching for something different as it likes to happen.)

 

[Falling Down]

I think, if a killer is now hiding in plain sight for 4 years, he also might have parked "in plain sight" (CPS building) and rather not at the "hidden" cemetery. Where would a car with a foreign license plate (if it is the case) be less noticeable? Openly on the side of a road might have been the better place, which suggested innocence and saved him being trapped within a tight space. The killer seems brazen enough, to handle his "missions" this way, always perhaps (if Delphi wasn't his first rodeo). IMO

Yes and parking in the cemetery may have delayed his exit from the area.

JMO

 

[taylorss]

I think, if a killer is now hiding in plain sight for 4 years, he also might have parked "in plain sight" (CPS building) and rather not at the "hidden" cemetery. Where would a car with a foreign license plate (if it is the case) be less noticeable? Openly on the side of a road might have been the better place, which suggested innocence and saved him being trapped within a tight space. The killer seems brazen enough, to handle his "missions" this way, always perhaps (if Delphi wasn't his first rodeo). IMO

a “foreign license plate” meaning non-US? Those are extremely rare on US roads &, unless Canadian where the design is the same, very noticeable! Is there some indication that BG might’ve had a foreign-flagged car, or that there was one nearby?? That would be v interesting!

But if by a foreign license plate you mean out of state / non-IN .... that probably wouldn’t have been noticed anywhere. I’ve never lived in a small town like Delphi so maybe it’s somewhat diff there.... but in general plates are from all over the US w/o it being remarkable. Even when you rent a car, the license plate will often be some random state that’s nowhere nearby! Every state now has multiple plate designs to choose from for a small upcharge, so you have to actually stop to read the small print to determine where it’s from .... seems like it would make LE’s job a bit more difficult in general I always think but that’s OT...

 

[infinit]

Carter also believes the killer has a connection to Delphi, and ABC News contributor and former FBI agent Brad Garrett agrees, noting that the hiking trail is probably too remote to attract outsiders.

"Unless someone absolutely somehow studied that [trail] in great depth, they would not know specifically where certain things were," added the sheriff.

'Epitome of evil': Delphi double murder still a mystery 3 years later

Even using Google Maps it is quite difficult to figure out where you could go etc because of the amount of tree coverage. It is only because of the photos,videos from the location and maps etc locals made after the killings which makes it easier to get a handle on the location. If that wasn't there I think it'd be difficult without having actually walked the site.

 

[Yemelyan]

Not meaning any disrespect, but how would BP know that no one else saw the girls? What about the couple under the bridge?

Just supposition but I think she's basing this on the fact that police would have immediately tried to contact any and all people who had been at the bridge that day and obtained statements from them. LE would have been interested in knowing who else saw the girls on the trails in order to gauge if the people were witnesses to any interactions with their eventual killer. Possibly as a result of this, LE told her that no one else on the trails reported seeing the girls.

 

[JnRyan]

I've looked at images from both Google Earth and USGS of the area, going back to roughly 1962-ish. Prior to abandonment of the bridge, the properties close to the gorge on the south side of it looked a bit different, one big factor at play after abandonment was much of the RR property along there was acquired by land owners. I'm guessing 90's.

C.R. 625 leads to the driveway. It once ended under the bridge. Looks like the house where the homeowner that wasn't home that day has been there since the 90's. Images courtesy Google Earth, from 2017, 2005, and 1992, a feature on there allows a user to go back to previous Google and USGS images from years ago.

So the driveway under the bridge was there as well that house back in 1992. Interesting. I wonder if the killer lived or visited a relative in the area, 10, 15 or even 20 years ago. If this is the case and he did walk down C.R. 625 he may have been much more familiar with the area between the end of the bridge and cemetery than the trails. Even before the trail was made, I wonder if middle school and high school kids didn't use it to access the bridge and walk on it even back then. Some of us did crazier things in our teenage years.

 

[JDough]

Really thinking about Abby, Libby, and their families today. Yet another holiday has passed, without them sharing in the festivities. Picnics, good food, and spending time with their extended families........ You are not forgotten, Girls.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I've always assumed CR 625 was created to give access to that end of the trestle. The railroad or county or someone would almost have to have a deeded access to 625 so they could work on that end.

You can use Beacon to find out info about the various properties.

Beacon - Carroll County, IN - Map

 

[evilwise]

I tend to assume that "where was the killer's car?" is a line of investigation that must have been exhausted by now by law enforcement. Cars just parked by the side of the road are recorded by law enforcement simply to determine at what point they are considered "abandoned" and get towed. Business parking lots have surveillance on them and must have been reviewed.

If the killer was just on a hike then he must have just dipped out from other hikers to commit the crimes and blended back into them to come and go from the trail head at such a time as not to have seemed unusual. That's got to be why there was so much focus on interviewing hikers from the day, where we got the "young" sketch.

Just because some hikers saw him on trail doesn't necessarily mean he was not camping though. If he had been camping then he must have made his way to and especially from the area in some way. He might have been dropped off and/or picked up hitching rides or by an acquaintance which would explain the public appeal about anyone matching the description in the area.

He may have simply hiked overland for a long distance though. A healthy man could hike the distance from, say Delphi to Lafayette in half a day.

 

[JnRyan]

Carter also believes the killer has a connection to Delphi, and ABC News contributor and former FBI agent Brad Garrett agrees, noting that the hiking trail is probably too remote to attract outsiders.

"Unless someone absolutely somehow studied that [trail] in great depth, they would not know specifically where certain things were," added the sheriff.

'Epitome of evil': Delphi double murder still a mystery 3 years later

It's not a large area. By the time I started high school, I had spent time in the woods and swamps of LA and in the woods and mountains of AR. I got lost in both. The summer after I started high school I was spending a couple of weeks with a relative in the mid-west. I had been there a few summers before and was bored with the 200+ acres of crop land, pasture and woods. Within one or two days I had crossed fence lines (yes, I was illegally trespassing) and covered an area probably 5-10 times the total area here of the Freedom Bridge, Monan High Bridge, trails and crime scene. And I became familiar with all of it. I learned that the nature of mid-west properties are far easier to move through without getting lost like in extensive wildlife preserves. (Thinking back now I also note that I was probably never seen by land owners given that they rarely walk their properties. Now I wonder how easy it would be to hide a body on someone else's property. The serial killer/rapist, Jesse Matthew, did just exactly that in Virginia and his known victims weren't found for months.)

Could someone learn the area this small in two or even one trip? I believe someone comfortable in the outdoors could very well do that. Yet given that we have photos and sketches, I would think there is a chance someone might have seen him there before. But memories are really not that sharp. It also assumes the 'witnesses' really did see the killer that day and we actually have a sketch of the killer as opposed to an innocent trail user.

 

[Justice101]

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