Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #136

[TTF14]

I went back a THIRD time to listen to 48:25 through 52:00 of the video. You see, on the second pass I thought I heard something a little different from what I remembered and reported here after the first pass. It keeps happening.

I had reported here that caller thought perhaps Libby's state of undress was from dragging. (Police have not confirmed if either or both were clothed, nude, partial, or whatever, never mind how they got that way.)

The caller is in fact referring to a rumor that dragging had removed clothing. He is not endorsing it at all. Before addressing the likelihood of this, he skips to another rumor, that one or both girls were sexually assaulted. This he addresses, saying that he has not heard they were assaulted.

He then cites a non-public LE-developed profile of the killer where they say some stand-offish, non-touching but still sexual behavior occurred. LE could not believe [exaggerated emphasis by caller] there was no DNA. This citing of LE's belief in a sexual motive seems intended in part to rebut, not assert, the rumor about dragging. However, it occurs so far after the mention of it that I'm still not sure. Caller mentions the killer perhaps using a condom from a distance. This IMHO appears to be him giving an example from his own mind of what LE could be referring to, not a quote from the profile.

I keep having to correct my first report. The caller's presentation is vague and ambiguous. <modsnip>

THANK YOU!

smh

 

[FrostedGlass]

<modsnip>

Can somebody give us a short summary. For example, what shoe tree?

The shoe tree is on the edge of the private drive about 75 yards south of the bridge. As someone mentioned, it probably has nothing to do with the murders but it sure would be nice to know the story behind it. The guest took a video of it and GH shows it a couple of minutes after the 1 hour mm.

 

[Ozoner]

The shoe tree is on the edge of the private drive about 75 yards south of the bridge. As someone mentioned, it probably has nothing to do with the murders but it sure would be nice to know the story behind it. The guest took a video of it and GH shows it a couple of minutes after the 1 hour mm.

Shoe trees are something of a fad right now. I don't know how that fad started. Kids turned one of the trees in a park in my neighborhood into a shoe tree.
I don't think the shoe tree has any significance aside from serving as proof that the immediate area was frequented by children and/or teens.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Shoe trees are something of a fad right now. I don't know how that fad started. Kids turned one of the trees in a park in my neighborhood into a shoe tree.
I don't think the shoe tree has any significance aside from serving as proof that the immediate area was frequented by children and/or teens.

From what I'm reading, it can mean just about anything the beginner wants it to be. I totally agree with you that it proves the area was frequented. I often wonder if the number of people visiting that area fell off dramatically some months after the murders.

The guest on GH video hiked in from the east in April 2017 and I think that was the same time that he saw the shoe tree. Maybe some of the friends of the girls created it as a memorial to them. There's a small section of picket fence leaning against the tree.

 

[Justice101]

following

 

[carbuff]

Shoe trees are something of a fad right now. I don't know how that fad started. Kids turned one of the trees in a park in my neighborhood into a shoe tree.
I don't think the shoe tree has any significance aside from serving as proof that the immediate area was frequented by children and/or teens.

I've read about one farther south in Indiana that's been there since the early 1900's and is reported to have a pair of Larry Bird's shoes in it.

 

[Trebor5591]

So then I guess if this new information is true, the girls were knocked out but not dead when transported across the creek.

This is some crazy stuff. To do all this physicality and not leave any forensics except one spot of touch DNA...possibly, not for sure.

In my opinion, the idea the girls were "knocked out but not dead" and then carried across the creek, is so far fetched as to be beyond possibility.

 

[WildHuncher]

In my opinion, the idea the girls were "knocked out but not dead" and then carried across the creek, is so far fetched as to be beyond possibility.

My biggest issue is not so much possibility. I'm pretty sure it's possible. It's just very difficult and poses a risk of detection. The area is only so secluded.

But even if you're strong, crazy, and willing to take your chances, what on earth makes you decide to do it that way?

I can think of a scenario. The girls initially comply. We seem to be all assuming that. They go down the hill.

He orders them into the creek. They balk. It's a warm day for February, but the water is cold. They don't want to get their shoes / feet wet. If they had any illusion the guy was a cop, they can figure at this point that he's not.

But he's committed now, so he starts the attack.

That's one possibility. Another is that much or all of what was in that phone call is bogus.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

Do you think that BG has re-visited the crime scene since that horrific day in February 2017?

 

[Yemelyan]

Do you think that BG has re-visited the crime scene since that horrific day in February 2017?

Interesting question. There have been some studies that show that a significant number of child killers have a tendency to return to the site where they disposed of their victims. It's unclear to me, however, whether they are returning just to re-visit the scene of their exploits or if they tend to return in cases where they know the remains are still there. Personally, I think it is mostly the latter.

I believe that LE in the Delphi case would have been aware of this pattern of behavior from FBI input and I'd be very surprised if some type of trail cam or surveillance had not been installed shortly after the crime just in case.

Source on the post-mortem behavior of child killers: https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/digitization/201253ncjrs.pdf

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

Interesting question. There have been some studies that show that a significant number of child killers have a tendency to return to the site where they disposed of their victims. It's unclear to me, however, whether they are returning just to re-visit the scene of their exploits or if they tend to return in cases where they know the remains are still there. Personally, I think it is mostly the latter.

I believe that LE in the Delphi case would have been aware of this pattern of behavior from FBI input and I'd be very surprised if some type of trail cam or surveillance had not been installed shortly after the crime just in case.

Source on the post-mortem behavior of child killers: https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/digitizationyjst /201253ncjrs.pdf

I believe it is the latter as well. I had thought about that while contemplating on whether I should even ask the question.

ETA: I also thought about LE installing cameras for surveillance purposes for these reasons.

 

[Falling Down]

From what I'm reading, it can mean just about anything the beginner wants it to be. I totally agree with you that it proves the area was frequented. I often wonder if the number of people visiting that area fell off dramatically some months after the murders.

The guest on GH video hiked in from the east in April 2017 and I think that was the same time that he saw the shoe tree. Maybe some of the friends of the girls created it as a memorial to them. There's a small section of picket fence leaning against the tree.

Just my own observations and comparisons:

I've been there on two occasions, both were Sunday afternoons. Once in August of '17 and then October of 2020. I was there alone on both occasions.

First time around I drove around the general area, then explored two public parks and some of Delphi on foot. There may have been a vehicle parked at the parking area on the west end of the Freedom Bridge, but it's easy to drive past and not swing your head around at an unnatural angle to look. In fact I wasn't aware of that parking area until I drove past it, but that is the main parking area for visitors.

My guess would be at that time of day, on a hot August early afternoon, under 3 people were there. The spot where the girls were dropped off was closed off by a new fence by then. 6 months after the murders.

I parked at the main parking area last October, checked out the cool monuments close by, walked across FB/the highway, and started down the main trail. There were some people by the FB mainly on the west side of it, and the main parking area was full.

Down the main trail I walked past probably 20 people, half of whom appeared to be Mennonite. I then started down the Girard trail, along the steep part walked past an elderly couple. I pressed on and ended up finding the creek west of the bridge, the bridge cannot ve seen from there.

Walking back up the trail, I got the eerie sense I was there alone. It's a strenuous hike at the steep part of the Girard trail, then a shortcut trail leads to the main trail to the bridge. I cut up that, got on the main trail, and headed towards MHB.

From MHB (I didn't walk across it, I'm afraid of heights), back to the FB I saw no one. So in a matter of minutes it went from 20+ people on the main trail and Girard trail, to one. Deserted.

At FB I noticed a couple walking from where the CPS was, they must have parked there, and some more people had arrived to walk.

The best way I can describe traffic at the trails is sporadic, and on some weekdays I'd imagine very few users are out there.

JMO

 

[Gracie55]

The guest on the GH video says his source said Libby was dragged a long way and her wrists were bruised as a result and the source added that he didn’t think he could drag her that far. The guest then speculates he thought he could drag her on flat ground and because of that assumes the source meant Libby was pulled up the embankment. That’s a very wild and silly assumption on his part I think. Regardless, the source himself never said Libby was dragged up the embankment.
Libby probably was dragged at some point, but LE said they were killed where they were found, and I believe them.

A couple things occurring to me as I face a sleepless insomniac night. Bruising occurs on live tissue if I'm correct. Perhaps Libby fell from the rickety bridge, maybe in a scuffle with BG. Say he was angry about something, walking off steam, and then he sees a girl take his picture. It really makes him mad and he grabs for the camera. She falls. Abby goes with him down the hill to see how badly Libby is hurt. She is very bad, seems dead. He did not want her found so he drags her a ways upstream. Clothes are torn off in the process. Abby has been following behind, hiding maybe, not sure what to do. and bg must kill her as a witness when he notices her. The dna on her sleeve is all because he never came near except to cut her throat, when he touched her shoulder. He had the phone when he grabbed it on the bridge and didn't realize it was still recording.
This is not my only theory, but maybe. The facts we know could fit. I have other crazier ideas that flit through my sleep deprived mind, so who knows.

 

[Imvp2]

A couple things occurring to me as I face a sleepless insomniac night. Bruising occurs on live tissue if I'm correct. Perhaps Libby fell from the rickety bridge, maybe in a scuffle with BG. Say he was angry about something, walking off steam, and then he sees a girl take his picture. It really makes him mad and he grabs for the camera. She falls. Abby goes with him down the hill to see how badly Libby is hurt. She is very bad, seems dead. He did not want her found so he drags her a ways upstream. Clothes are torn off in the process. Abby has been following behind, hiding maybe, not sure what to do. and bg must kill her as a witness when he notices her. The dna on her sleeve is all because he never came near except to cut her throat, when he touched her shoulder. He had the phone when he grabbed it on the bridge and didn't realize it was still recording.
This is not my only theory, but maybe. The facts we know could fit. I have other crazier ideas that flit through my sleep deprived mind, so who knows.

Only one thing, in the audio, we hear BG use the plural "guys".

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Just my own observations and comparisons:

I've been there on two occasions, both were Sunday afternoons. Once in August of '17 and then October of 2020. I was there alone on both occasions.

First time around I drove around the general area, then explored two public parks and some of Delphi on foot. There may have been a vehicle parked at the parking area on the west end of the Freedom Bridge, but it's easy to drive past and not swing your head around at an unnatural angle to look. In fact I wasn't aware of that parking area until I drove past it, but that is the main parking area for visitors.

My guess would be at that time of day, on a hot August early afternoon, under 3 people were there. The spot where the girls were dropped off was closed off by a new fence by then. 6 months after the murders.

I parked at the main parking area last October, checked out the cool monuments close by, walked across FB/the highway, and started down the main trail. There were some people by the FB mainly on the west side of it, and the main parking area was full.

Down the main trail I walked past probably 20 people, half of whom appeared to be Mennonite. I then started down the Girard trail, along the steep part walked past an elderly couple. I pressed on and ended up finding the creek west of the bridge, the bridge cannot ve seen from there.

Walking back up the trail, I got the eerie sense I was there alone. It's a strenuous hike at the steep part of the Girard trail, then a shortcut trail leads to the main trail to the bridge. I cut up that, got on the main trail, and headed towards MHB.

From MHB (I didn't walk across it, I'm afraid of heights), back to the FB I saw no one. So in a matter of minutes it went from 20+ people on the main trail and Girard trail, to one. Deserted.

At FB I noticed a couple walking from where the CPS was, they must have parked there, and some more people had arrived to walk.

The best way I can describe traffic at the trails is sporadic, and on some weekdays I'd imagine very few users are out there.

JMO

Thanks for that post. Very helpful..
I kinda imagine the trails are like that most every day.

 

[Yemelyan]

A couple things occurring to me as I face a sleepless insomniac night. Bruising occurs on live tissue if I'm correct. Perhaps Libby fell from the rickety bridge, maybe in a scuffle with BG. Say he was angry about something, walking off steam, and then he sees a girl take his picture. It really makes him mad and he grabs for the camera. She falls. Abby goes with him down the hill to see how badly Libby is hurt. She is very bad, seems dead. He did not want her found so he drags her a ways upstream. Clothes are torn off in the process. Abby has been following behind, hiding maybe, not sure what to do. and bg must kill her as a witness when he notices her. The dna on her sleeve is all because he never came near except to cut her throat, when he touched her shoulder. He had the phone when he grabbed it on the bridge and didn't realize it was still recording.
This is not my only theory, but maybe. The facts we know could fit. I have other crazier ideas that flit through my sleep deprived mind, so who knows.

If a fall from the bridge was in any way involved, I think LE would know this as the injuries from a fall like that would be distinctive.

I do still think that's an awfully long way to drag someone Libby's size. If you go by the FBI estimates of his height and weight, she may have been only two inches shorter and twenty pounds heavier than him. Adrenaline can only do so much IMO. There's no place to hide the crime below the bridge that doesn't involve crossing the creek?

I'd also speculate that in most cases, crimes that occur because someone got really irrationally mad (if I understand the motivation correctly that's described in the "pushed off the bridge" scenario) do not also have signature behavior associated with them. Because signatures are behaviors that come out when the perpetrator has underlying fantasies or psychological needs that are fulfilled by what he does at the crime scene. It seems like what you're describing, @Gracie55, is almost like road rage....a person gets mad, acts rashly resulting in a death, has to eliminate witnesses and cover it up. But nowhere does the person who descends into a road rage have a psychological need to engage in other behaviors at the scene that act out their fantasy of killing someone. So if there were signatures in the Delphi case, that seems incongruent with a person snapping and then covering up a crime.

This is aside from the post I quoted, but I'd really be interested in whether or not one or both girls were bound. Obviously restraint is present in a lot of crimes for utilitarian reasons but sometimes it's there for reasons to do with signatures. If he has something to bind them with, then there's no chance IMO that any part of the crime was just precipitated by an outburst of anger.

 

[Trebor5591]

My biggest issue is not so much possibility. I'm pretty sure it's possible. It's just very difficult and poses a risk of detection. The area is only so secluded.

But even if you're strong, crazy, and willing to take your chances, what on earth makes you decide to do it that way?

I can think of a scenario. The girls initially comply. We seem to be all assuming that. They go down the hill.

He orders them into the creek. They balk. It's a warm day for February, but the water is cold. They don't want to get their shoes / feet wet. If they had any illusion the guy was a cop, they can figure at this point that he's not.

But he's committed now, so he starts the attack.

That's one possibility. Another is that much or all of what was in that phone call is bogus.

What you say makes sense! Thank you!

 

[WildHuncher]

What you say makes sense! Thank you!

Welcome! Glad you got me thinking about this. I'm still chewing on it.

You have to analyze this as what likely happened between the known points. We know they went down the hill with BG. We know they ended up dead in a spot down the hill and across the creek.

They were probably having regrets, doubts, and second thoughts all the way down. Should we be playing along with this guy? Should we have screamed and run while we were still up there?

I suspect crossing that water would have represented a new, higher level of crazy than, "Well, let's stall for time and humor him for now."

Maybe he even anticipated they weren't ready to go in that water on a February afternoon. Let's say he could see and hear that they were unsure they did the right thing. Perhaps for fear of losing the element of surprise he didn't even try to order them across. He got them to the water's edge and struck without warning.

Or maybe they all waded the creek. We have a shoe on one side of the creek, the phone on another. I'd be more convinced if the phone was on the near side of the creek. That would be the "hide it first and threaten him with it later" scenario mentioned by a few people already. It's hard to say how the phone fits in as we have it. The shoe works. Did Libby start to take her shoes off before she straightened up and said, "Hell no! I won't go?" Did she lose it trying to run?

How much do we believe GH's caller about all these "new" details the police still won't confirm or deny? The dragging, the bruises, the non-public profile info? There's the real rub.

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Earlier in this thread, there was some mention regarding the June 2021 CrimeCon panel regarding this case.

Here is a short (5 min) clip from CrimeCon that I hadn't seen posted here yet.

I had a huge lump in my throat when Kelsi mentioned all of things that Libby has missed out on in the last four plus years. TaRa German (Libby's aunt) is also on the panel and it was to be her first time publicly speaking about Libby....and she gets too choked up to speak. I got teary-eyed.

Both families have been so devastated by their losses. This killer took so much away from the families, and from the town of Delphi.

I love Becky Patty's statement: "He's messed with the wrong family."

Justice is coming, Abby and Libby. Nobody is giving up.

JMO

 

[Gracie55]

Only one thing, in the audio, we hear BG use the plural "guys".

We don't know if these words were said sequentially. Could be only part of another utterance like "Guys! Give me that phone!" Lib throws it and accidentally falls, or he grabs it and she falls. . Maybe he's on the lam hiding from le or something. Abby hangs around trying to see what happemef to Libby, if she's alive, if she can save her.
At this point maybe BG has the phone md orders Abby down the hill. He forces her to drag Libby's inert body a ways up the creek and then kills her. He left little dna at the crime scene since Libby passed from injuries in the fall, and he either shot or sliced Abbys throat.
It would be simple. But what gets me, why would they not tell the public in this scenario? Therefore, I think while it's plausible, it's probably not the key. How neatly, I think publicity is holding back a lot of details because of the the firestorm that will ensue. Too late though, the eyes of the world are on Delphi. Time for ground truth.