Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #147

[FrostedGlass]

In KAK's interrogation doc, DC starts a line of questioning by asking KAK if he's a "car guy."
(pg 26). KAK tells him about his dad's interest and how his dad buys a work car, then he'll customize it. 2 years later he'll just get rid of it. ... He buys one just to drive to work so he won't have to put miles on his other ones.

I'm curious about LE's interest in them working on cars. Plus, KAK's wording "he'll just get rid of it" is odd. Usually when people spend 2 years customizing a car, they don't just get rid it. I was under the impression that people make money doing that.

I wonder if there was something unusual about the vehicle that was parked at the abandoned building the day the girls were murdered.

 

[IQuestion]

KAK claims to have given LE a DNA sample, he also gave them a hair follicle sample. So we're back to either they don't have a good sample or KAK isn't the one. If he's not a match, what is the probability that his father would be? Maybe they have TK's DNA, too.

We only have the last used dates for the devices, not any of the first used ones. I wonder if KAK gave his old phones to his dad whenever he got new ones. IMO, KAK seemed genuinely appalled at the emilyanne stuff.

FrostedGlass Your posts really make me think about KAK's reactions. So I'll take the last part first: The only thing that upset him was that DetV had so much more information than KAK expected. The EmAnn account? I thought KAK created it and A_S sometime in 2016. I think he was upset because he was exposed pretending to be a young female. BTW, him posing as a female is a major creep out for me. That guy has some major issues and too much time on his hands! The inmates in prison are going to have a field day with that information. (My brother would have prayed for prison instead of facing my Mom after something like that was revealed!
The embarrassment and shame of your Mother knowing the depth of your deprivation.) No one has asked for a bail reduction or offered to post bail until his court date. Who would want KAK in their house or a neighborhood where every neighbor and coffee shop has wi-fi?
Last: I think they have DNA... tough to filter/isolate in a bloody crime scene. (takes a lot of time and luck) Finally LE did find DNA, isolated it and it comes back as "aged DNA" from someone 40 to 50 years of age, but also found "young DNA" 18 to 28....not only that, they share similar markers! Maybe they found 3 different DNA's because someone wore grandpas clothes. (Just speculating.) Are we looking at community/household transfer, two perps who are related?? What could it be? Let's go back and check all the alibis of fathers and sons living in the same household...Bingo, those guys in Peru. The last one to talk to Libby on the day she was killed, Dad has multiple offenses against women/children, and doesn't work on Mondays...the young guy who erased his phone before he turned it over to us.
The Horvath clock is one of the most widely-used age clocks and uses DNA methylation data to calculate age (Horvath S, Genome Biology, 2013)
PS... Sciatic left hip.

 

[M. Kay]

I wonder if there was something unusual about the vehicle that was parked at the abandoned building the day the girls were murdered.

That vehicle is definite in place and time; image is documented. So it may be used when following investigation of ties with anyone suspected. A person in question, then look for a connection to it?
I depend on inquiries like this, FG, since I'm worn down. In this vein I watched the drone video on an oversize display screen. The "screen person" (unfamiliar with case) tuned into that winding road conveniently "down the hill"! Does it bolster theory of abduction going awry, possibly triggering furious reaction of K's and "client" ?

 

[JnRyan]

In KAK's interrogation doc, DC starts a line of questioning by asking KAK if he's a "car guy."
(pg 26). KAK tells him about his dad's interest and how his dad buys a work car, then he'll customize it. 2 years later he'll just get rid of it. ... He buys one just to drive to work so he won't have to put miles on his other ones.

I'm curious about LE's interest in them working on cars. Plus, KAK's wording "he'll just get rid of it" is odd. Usually when people spend 2 years customizing a car, they don't just get rid it. I was under the impression that people make money doing that.

I wonder if there was something unusual about the vehicle that was parked at the abandoned building the day the girls were murdered.

The LE conversation about the cars and the mysterious car parked at the abandoned CPS building?? I went right past that part just thinking LE was trying to put KAK at ease before hitting him with what they found. The possible connection to that car near the trail is not something I picked up till now.

 

[TL4S]

The LE conversation about the cars and the mysterious car parked at the abandoned CPS building?? I went right past that part just thinking LE was trying to put KAK at ease before hitting him with what they found. The possible connection to that car near the trail is not something I picked up till now.

I hadn't either, but it's a compelling idea @FrostedGlass. My first thought about the "car guy" conversation was in relation to the a_shots catfishing car images, and how they were leading KAK into a conversation about two people being behind the accounts.

 

[TL4S]

Admittedly, I have not followed a whole lot of cases, so maybe some of you will be able to answer this. Right after the April 2019 PC, why was nothing about the "vehicle parked at the CPS lot" added to the ISP Delphi murder site or the FBI posters? Why is there nothing on those sources about a_shots?

Those sources label the new (younger) sketch and the photos of BG as "Delphi Homicide Suspect."

I don't understand why the "vehicle" and a_shots wouldn't be included unless somehow they know the suspect wouldn't be tied to them somehow? Any thoughts?

 

[Falling Down]

Although they say they know LE is working the case even when it seems like it’s quiet, it sounds like they are sitting around waiting for a break. Paul Holes formally offered his help in the spring and LE politely refused basically saying they had done everything that could possibly be done and were waiting on technology improvements etc that might help them.
That did not sound encouraging.
All that time frittered away, the podcast pretty much called them out and said the time for patience is over. I hope the families feel the same way.

edit: forgot something

I thought the 2019 PC was discouraging, to say the least. Like a "hail mary pass" by LE, in their "new direction" and with that YBG sketch. As if they'd exhausted all resources regarding the investigation. Personally, I think the Kline rabbit hole is proof-positive of this, that they totally missed the mark regarding a possible SM link in the case. They stated publicly they didn't think there was a SM link, well guess what, we have two individuals, a father and son, changing dates of posts and images on SM, while claiming they were in Vegas during the time in question on 2.13.17.

My heart and mind tell me this is something much bigger, wider, and deeper in scope than LE anticipated, and quite frankly they cannot figure out who BG is, because there's a possibility BG is on the periphery of this sex crime investigation stuff here in IN, and maybe he made an effort to get information that certain people, namely juveniles, would be at the MHB on a specific day or days. Put another way, so many individuals are involved in the wider investigation, and they're all sharing, cross-posting, etc., info, they can't nail down who BG is within all of that, where and how he fits, and if he was at the MHB on that specific day. Far as I'm concerned, LE and the prosecutor in Carroll County have to prove without a shadow of a doubt a specific individual was there at that time, and carried out the crimes. Sans DNA and other critical evidence, I don't see how they could get a conviction at this point. Furthermore, even if they find out who did it, how do they prove they did it?

This very scenario I shared above went through my head early on with Delphi, that there was a real possibility an internet-related connection was involved, or that someone innocently mentioned the girls would be at the bridge that day, and somehow that info was passed on. The SM/internet scenario makes perfect sense to me, and fits in with what I've thought since early on. BG went through an awful lot of effort that day for a killer, why do that? However at the same time figuring out ahead of time two juveniles would be at the bridge made things easier for him, the paths to and from the CS are easy to navigate that time of year, etc. I think he made a lot of effort on the front-end to lurk there at MHB in the past, he was just waiting for the right bait or info to cross his path online to put it all into motion and strike.

JMO

 

[JnRyan]

Admittedly, I have not followed a whole lot of cases, so maybe some of you will be able to answer this. Right after the April 2019 PC, why was nothing about the "vehicle parked at the CPS lot" added to the ISP Delphi murder site or the FBI posters? Why is there nothing on those sources about a_shots?

Those sources label the new (younger) sketch and the photos of BG as "Delphi Homicide Suspect."

I don't understand why the "vehicle" and a_shots wouldn't be included unless somehow they know the suspect wouldn't be tied to them somehow? Any thoughts?

Not only is the 'vehicle parked at the CPS lot' not added to the ISP or FBI pages, but we don't hear any more about it from LE. I fault the media for not bringing that up in interviews with the sheriff or the ISP superintendent. Was ISP Superintendent Carter playing mind games with the killer? If the killer didn't park there it is almost of no issue to the killer. I say 'almost', because if he didn't park there, he really sees it as a path away from him.

 

[Falling Down]

There are suspicious events sprinkled around in those three years before KAK was arrested, which hint (imo), that KAK and TK were worried about KAK being linked to Delphi:

1) The online and search activity on KAK's devices while in Vegas
2) The search warrant and subsequent polygraph on 2/25/2017, possibly also connected to ski mask
3) TK's 8/12/2018 FB post saying his son hasn't been home in two years
4) KAK's 5/13/2020 FB post backdating him starting a job in Vegas on 2/12/2017

Then after the arrest, we have more:

1) KAK's CSAM arrest interview including questioning on Delphi
2) 11/2021 "raid" on the Peru house, then KAK claiming his father won't speak to him
3) ISP's a_shots release in 12/2021
4) BMcD asking KAK if TK knew RL and acting surprised when he said he didn't think so

There's something that has bothered me since the a_shots release, though. That information has not been added to the ISP Delphi murders site, nor the FBI posters. The killer's description was removed, mostly, but there's nothing about a_shots anywhere on either page. Why? The tips are to go straight to the A & L tip line, and the family has acknowledged L was, in fact, in communications with a_shots, so why isn't that included in those important sources? That's curious.

Now take what I'll say about this with a grain of salt, but...

People up to no good on SM and in their lives have a tendency to have multiple, if not many, SM accounts. They use these accounts for their criminal activities, and often times they're sending "messages" to people within their circle(s) through their posts, public and private, and various "life events" they post about. Drugs. Prostitution. Deals. Selling of stolen goods. Etc. An example would be someone posts something personal, but the meaning of it is known only to those within their circle.

What I see in some of KAK's SM activity are posts signaling certain things, maybe to certain people. Maybe to LE, maybe messing with LE.

My personal and unscientific profile of BG fits this to a T, messing with LE and possibly people not within LE about the case, but doing it in such a way as to get a thrill from it. The very set of crimes that day smack of someone who's sneaky and deceitful in their everyday life. On my end, the CS location itself is a "signal", like "Haha, look at where I did this, I got away with it, and good luck finding me".

Whether KAK was directly involved or not is up to LE to figure out, I just think people of his ilk tend to fit a certain profile of individuals who have no respect for humanity, zero respect for LE, etc. Just all-around creeps. And they tend to associate with others who are like themselves.

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

@IQuestion We know when the a_shots account was created but if I saw when emilyanne was created, it's gone from my mind.

His bond was set at $265,000.00 according the bond schedule. 10% cash. Your right; no one has bonded him out. That might be ok with him; sometimes sitting out time in a county jail is a thousand times better than prison time. He likely knows he's going for a long time.

I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to DNA; are you saying the state labs and CODIS use the Horvath clock to determine the age of unknown DNA donors?

 

[carbuff]

\

Carbuff....he was stimulated by the photos, IMO. Heck KAK erased history from his phone, so how do we know he wasn't looking that kind of stuff up right before the murders, too? Of course, looking up murders is not suspicious, but he did right after the murders of Abby and Libby and no cause of death, means, weapons, or bloody crime scene info had been released by LE.
For example. A couple is killed and police have not released the cause of death. The last person who spoke to the couple leaves town and immediately begins searching: double homicides by manual strangulation, how long does DNA last and can my ISP address be tracked? And, two years later LE releases crime scene information: the victims were manually strangled. I don't know how anyone else reacts to that info, but it sends up a lot of red flags for me. And apparently for DetV, too.
Maybe someone can explain it better.

I understand what you're saying. I just don't see enough similarity between the two crimes for that to be the connection. The crime scene is different, the victims are different, the motive is different, the OJ crime happened when KAK was just a kid. We know now there was lots of blood, but we don't know what kind of weapon was used. I could believe he gets turned on by bloody scenes, but we don't have any evidence of anything like that, just about underage girls.

 

[Falling Down]

The MS had several guests on who supposedly knew TK and KAK: TK's step-son (KAK's half-brother), TK's step_daughter (KAK's half-sister), friends, and I think a woman who accused TK of stalking her when they were younger.

I certainly won't say that KAK isn't capable of stalking/violent/creepy behavior, but IMO, TK has proven himself as such over the course of decades. Someone local on this thread once said that after the murders, the Chrysler plant in Kokomo had been heavily searched several times. I don't remember who said that.

Myself and maybe others have mentioned, I thought another member or members have mentioned it.

Which is something I've pondered. So when I was down there for work two years ago, Kokomo specifically (not the Chrysler plant), the murders would come up in conversation at work and within my circle of folks I hung out with (lots of great people in that area BTW). I lived mere blocks from the massive main plant out there, it employs thousands, people from that area and even some international folks. There are 3 additional Chrysler factories there in town.

The main plant was shaken down mere days after the murders. Why, I don't know. I was told this by people who worked there and by folks who lived in town. I didn't bring up Delphi in conversation, I'd just try to listen to what people had to say and add my $.02 being an outsider but having a keen interest in the case.

A lot of folks in that general area, say from Peru to Monticello, and on down to Kokomo, know each other or know family members of family members, stuff like that. Folks whose families go back some generations. Kokomo is the regional economic hub, so to speak, and has a lot of retail that pulls customers in from the area of IN in question. Now for me to find out there are connections among names associated with the case and the Klines doesn't surprise me too much, but I think illustrates how connected all those communities are out there.

Every person I spoke with about the case out that way said they were convinced the perp is a local, meaning within say an hour's drive or so of the MHB.

JMO

 

[Mireille]

\


I understand what you're saying. I just don't see enough similarity between the two crimes for that to be the connection. The crime scene is different, the victims are different, the motive is different, the OJ crime happened when KAK was just a kid. We know now there was lots of blood, but we don't know what kind of weapon was used. I could believe he gets turned on by bloody scenes, but we don't have any evidence of anything like that, just about underage girls.

There was a few documentaries released about oj Simpson in 2016 and 2017.since he got off the charge it may have been what interested him? Maybe he was researching a defense?

It could also be coincidence of some sort but if he had little interest in it before, and considering the timing it can stand out as odd.

 

[Trebor5591]

Some interesting excerpts from the April 29, 2020 Carroll County Comet:

Leazenby stated the investigation is not “stalled.” And it has not been determined if there was one or more perpetrators.
-------------------

The Sheriff speculated that a perpetrator has probably been interviewed by investigators about the crime, but was not immediately recognized as a offender. He said he still believes a local, or locals, committed the crimes. Leazenby said whoever did this “knew the lay of the land.” He said when an arrest is made, which he believes will happen, community members will likely be shocked at the identity of those arrested. He said he believes the perpetrator will likely be someone who is fairly well-known in the community.

“Mistakes may have been made early on in the rush to get a resolution to this,” Leazenby said. “It could be that just the right question was not asked or a nerve was not touched by a question to help us figure out who did this.”

The Sheriff said evidence is being revisited to determine if there are more leads than were first thought.
-------------------

The Sheriff indicated the two sketches, which varied greatly from each other, were supplied by two different people near the scene on Monday, Feb. 13. Both images are of persons of interest in the investigation.

Lots of tips, no arrest in 2017 double homicide - Carroll County Comet

*side note: two weeks (May 13, 2020 - can't link, so moo) after this article was published, KAK posted his backdated fb about getting a job in Vegas on Feb. 12, 2017.

"He said when an arrest is made, which he believes will happen, community members will likely be shocked at the identity of those arrested. He said he believes the perpetrator will likely be someone who is fairly well-known in the community."

Well that leaves out KAK and father both.

 

[Falling Down]

Carbuff....he was stimulated by the photos, IMO. Heck KAK erased history from his phone, so how do we know he wasn't looking that kind of stuff up right before the murders, too? Of course, looking up murders is not suspicious, but he did right after the murders of Abby and Libby and no cause of death, means, weapons, or bloody crime scene info had been released by LE.
For example. A couple is killed and police have not released the cause of death. The last person who spoke to the couple leaves town and immediately begins searching: double homicides by manual strangulation, how long does DNA last and can my ISP address be tracked? And, two years later LE releases crime scene information: the victims were manually strangled. I don't know how anyone else reacts to that info, but it sends up a lot of red flags for me. And apparently for DetV, too.
Maybe someone can explain it better.

Again going off my unscientific profile of the killer...

I've sensed for a long time the killer gets off on what he did, he didn't have to sexually assault anyone that day, probably not his 'style". He gets off on the crimes themselves, what he did, the notoriety, the media reports, the cat-and-mouse game with LE. Which hints that perhaps the killer recorded the crimes somehow, or at least the aftermath.

The killer is a sick freak who planned this well in advance, and had the ability to plan and carry out this set of crimes on what would have been a normal work day here in IN. So somebody with some time on their hands. Somebody who works alone, works shift work, or doesn't work at all. They could have hung out at MHB on many occasions, and run into few or no people (per even my own experience on a beautiful Fall there in 2020).

JMO

 

[Falling Down]

FrostedGlass Your posts really make me think about KAK's reactions. So I'll take the last part first: The only thing that upset him was that DetV had so much more information than KAK expected. The EmAnn account? I thought KAK created it and A_S sometime in 2016. I think he was upset because he was exposed pretending to be a young female. BTW, him posing as a female is a major creep out for me. That guy has some major issues and too much time on his hands! The inmates in prison are going to have a field day with that information. (My brother would have prayed for prison instead of facing my Mom after something like that was revealed!
The embarrassment and shame of your Mother knowing the depth of your deprivation.) No one has asked for a bail reduction or offered to post bail until his court date. Who would want KAK in their house or a neighborhood where every neighbor and coffee shop has wi-fi?
Last: I think they have DNA... tough to filter/isolate in a bloody crime scene. (takes a lot of time and luck) Finally LE did find DNA, isolated it and it comes back as "aged DNA" from someone 40 to 50 years of age, but also found "young DNA" 18 to 28....not only that, they share similar markers! Maybe they found 3 different DNA's because someone wore grandpas clothes. (Just speculating.) Are we looking at community/household transfer, two perps who are related?? What could it be? Let's go back and check all the alibis of fathers and sons living in the same household...Bingo, those guys in Peru. The last one to talk to Libby on the day she was killed, Dad has multiple offenses against women/children, and doesn't work on Mondays...the young guy who erased his phone before he turned it over to us.
The Horvath clock is one of the most widely-used age clocks and uses DNA methylation data to calculate age (Horvath S, Genome Biology, 2013)
PS... Sciatic left hip.

Great post like so many others recently on this thread.

Public WiFi is what I pictured the killer to be using, early on in the case. Like the morning of the murders. At a fast food joint, anywhere that offers it. Say on a burner phone.

So LE have any number of IP's they can trace back to KAK. What about the ones they can't?

JMO

 

[Falling Down]

There was a few documentaries released about oj Simpson in 2016 and 2017.since he got off the charge it may have been what interested him? Maybe he was researching a defense?

It could also be coincidence of some sort but if he had little interest in it before, and considering the timing it can stand out as odd.

I just think it's odd he'd search about the Simpson murders while on a trip to Vegas. I just don't picture KAK hanging out on WS wanting for unsolved murders to be solved, or having a positive interest in true crime stuff.

I'm curious about how many times he's searched about those murders, and what he's searched. Especially considering what he's being accused of, what we know about him.

JMO

 

[Falling Down]

More late night thoughts. KAK lied to investigators 3 years ago. If investigators were led to believe Tk and Kak were in Las Vegas during the time of the murders, does that mean they only took Kak's word? Did they interview Tk "separately" and he also said they were in Las Vegas during the murders? "Okay then, nothing more to investigate." The only two men in the home gave the same story and are each other's alibi?
And no one asks them to provide hotel or plane reservations? Was investigative bias at play here? It can't be a local, it has to be a drifter passing through town. A scene from Fargo just flashed by.
(Sorry for all the Rrrrrun on sentences and poor punctuation? Thankfully I have spell check)

Nobody just stumbles upon an old abandoned RR bridge a 1/4 mile back in the woods outside a small Midwestern town.

Great post.

JMO

 

[IQuestion]

"we don't know what kind of weapon was used."? Geez, hopefully I will never know the details before LE has released them. Only the killer would know what weapon was used and so would the person he shared the info with.
Det. V brought up more than once in the interview, several pages apart. If DetV felt it important enough to ask, I'm asking myself, "Why?" That is a fact and I'm not going to search any more pages today as I start getting frustrated reading his non-responsive diversions. (Insert frustrating emoji, lol.)

 

[Falling Down]

@IQuestion We know when the a_shots account was created but if I saw when emilyanne was created, it's gone from my mind.

His bond was set at $265,000.00 according the bond schedule. 10% cash. Your right; no one has bonded him out. That might be ok with him; sometimes sitting out time in a county jail is a thousand times better than prison time. He likely knows he's going for a long time.

I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to DNA; are you saying the state labs and CODIS use the Horvath clock to determine the age of unknown DNA donors?

I'll add that it's odd his bond has not been reduced.

JMO