Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #148

[sunshineray]

Wasn’t it a summer science camp for teens? Junior or high school science isn’t generally associated with crime solving is it?

Maybe DNA and forensics?

 

[sunshineray]

I am going to repost what I did a few months ago. The gist of it is that I believe the Murder Sheet podcast is an operation run by ISP (and possibly the FBI) to put out controlled leaks that reveal a semblance of truth, but ultimately obfuscate the advancements in the investigation. This is to keep internet sleuths - and by extension - the perpetrators from understanding the true direction of current developments, which would compromise law enforcement's end goal of arrest(s) and conviction(s). This by no means indicates I think LE has a perfectly crafted plan. In fact, there may be elements of a cover up motivating their tactics if the crime links back to them through some sort of prior knowledge, active involvement, informants, etc.

-----
I am almost 100% certain they know who BG is, and I think there is good information out there that cuts down the pool of possible persons fairly narrowly. The entire strategy of ISP since at least 2019 (and probably much before that) has been focused on the community itself, the search party -- even though they will not come out and say it directly -- and individuals they have interviewed before. I also think the circumstances point to more than one individual involved, and in my opinion, there are at least two with up to four or five principal actors in the murders, with more possibly involved peripherally.

IMO The KAK/TK push in the last few months is a controlled leak by law enforcement. I do believe they have involvement in what transpired on 2/13-14, but they are being used as a smokescreen to throw off (even if subtly) their main POIs. It is my opinion that KAK has turned state's witness, possibly prior to the August 2020 charges and arrest. The MS podcast that has continually "broken" stories, which always mysteriously get picked up by large Midwestern news affiliates, are a part of this operation by ISP.

Just ask yourself this question -- how much leeway would the FBI give to random internet journalists who seem to always repeatedly tip off the public to the most recent investigative developments? Once...maybe, but a pattern of nearly a dozen stories in 6 months just wouldn't fly without some sort of internal sanction. They are part of the operation.

"...the most recent investigative developments..."?

The only information released by MS which was exclusive to MS was the 196 page redacted interrogation of KAK. That was uncommonly fortuitous for them...it's still offers up a lot of questions for me. All the other things were out there for many to discover IMO. I can't see the FBI or ISP trusting these two podcasters with a major role in their investigative strategy to catch the killer(s) of two Indiana girls.

More so, where does the HLN reporter who conducted the only face to face interview with KAK (besides LE of course) come into this scenario? Is she also in this plan to disseminate information for the FBI and ISP?

What you're supposing could most likely create nightmares for the prosecution of any arrested defendants too. No I don't think MS is in collusion with LE in a "crafted plan", they just got lucky as did that HLN reporter that KAK agreed to talk to, probably giving his lawyer a panic attack.

Did MS talk to LE about keeping certain things redacted before they published? I'd say most likely. I don't think they want notoriety at the expense of finding and convicting Abby and Libby's killer(s). They seem like caring people.

AJMO

 

[TheProblemWeAllLiveWith]

"...the most recent investigative developments..."?

The only information released by MS which was exclusive to MS was the 196 page redacted interrogation of KAK. That was uncommonly fortuitous for them...it's still offers up a lot of questions for me. All the other things were out there for many to discover IMO. I can't see the FBI or ISP trusting these two podcasters with a major role in their investigative strategy to catch the killer(s) of two Indiana girls.

More so, where does the HLN reporter who conducted the only face to face interview with KAK (besides LE of course) come into this scenario? Is she also in this plan to disseminate information for the FBI and ISP.

What you're supposing could most likely create nightmares for the prosecution of any arrested defendants too. No I don't think MS is in collusion with LE in a "crafted plan", they just got lucky as did that HLN reporter that KAK agreed to talk to, probably giving his lawyer a panic attack.

Did MS talk to LE about keeping certain things redacted before they published? I'd say most likely. I don't think they want notoriety at the expense of finding and convicting Abby and Libby's killer(s). They seem like caring people.

AJMO

MS has in the past few weeks pointedly called out and challenged the ISP and the FBI in particular for mishandling the case, and have named names.
How that plays into the new inside source or controlled press theory or whatever, I’ve no idea.

 

[TL4S]

Nobody (as in the general public) even had the Ks on their radar until the ISP put out the a_shots ask in Dec. 2021. Before ISP put out that ask, they had to know the media would connect KAK to the a_shots account in fairly short order, so if their investigation hinged on that information not getting out, they probably wouldn't have put out the ask to begin with, imo.

With KAK's CSAM trial coming up, why would the ISP devise a plan (via MS) to drag KAK through the mud so his lawyer would have leverage for all kinds of complaints? Or drag TK through it when he hasn't even been charged with anything remotely related, as far as we know?

Is it not possible that LE has been investigating this case for five and a half years, so what we're seeing now is simply where the investigation has taken them, and what the media or podcasters do with their FOIA rights is up to the media and podcasters?

 

[scapa]

"...the most recent investigative developments..."?

The only information released by MS which was exclusive to MS was the 196 page redacted interrogation of KAK. That was uncommonly fortuitous for them...it's still offers up a lot of questions for me. All the other things were out there for many to discover IMO. I can't see the FBI or ISP trusting these two podcasters with a major role in their investigative strategy to catch the killer(s) of two Indiana girls.

More so, where does the HLN reporter who conducted the only face to face interview with KAK (besides LE of course) come into this scenario? Is she also in this plan to disseminate information for the FBI and ISP?

What you're supposing could most likely create nightmares for the prosecution of any arrested defendants too. No I don't think MS is in collusion with LE in a "crafted plan", they just got lucky as did that HLN reporter that KAK agreed to talk to, probably giving his lawyer a panic attack.

Did MS talk to LE about keeping certain things redacted before they published? I'd say most likely. I don't think they want notoriety at the expense of finding and convicting Abby and Libby's killer(s). They seem like caring people.

AJMO

Good post.

I'd only add that nothing I've seen to date from Carter and other LE involved with this case has suggested (to me) that they're a group with the cunning and sophistication to set up a front operation as outlined by the OP.

I was surprised by the KK interview release, a little less so by the RL SW release, but these seem more likely to be leaks by a frustrated or motivated insider than part of a multi-layered sting operation run by the ISP.

I'm still on the fence regarding KK/ TK involvement in the murders but there's enough going on there in terms of the nature of KK's acts and the timing of events to link one or both men to at least the outer circles of the crime. IMO, of course.

 

[TL4S]

So lets just say that a_shots' communications with L, which BP and KG have both confirmed did indeed happen, were coincidental and unrelated to the murders. And let's say LE lied about everything in the 2020 interview with KAK. Let's also say that all of KAK's device searches after the murders, the Samsung wiping before turning in to LE, and other such suspicious activities that KAK fully admits to and which were included in the 2017 Peru house search affidavit, are also meaningless to this case.

Then why would the ISP put out the a_shots ask at all, only days before KAK's original hearing date, with tips going to the A & L tip line? Why do that? Because KAK fooled them? Because LE is stupid or corrupt? Because the real killer is a random SK or otherwise unknown to LE and they just want to pin it on somebody? It doesn't make any sense.

I'm completely open to the idea that somebody else had access to the a_shots account or that L's personal data was shared with a third party. Maybe KAK had a role in that, or maybe not, IDK. But IMO, LE put that a_shots ask out there for a reason. After five years of basically nothing besides a couple of sketches and the bridge recording, this LE team does not seem likely to put out a name, fictitious or not, unless it had some kind of significance to the case. That's JMO.

 

[IQuestion]

Hoping we would come back to the center on this. The Murder Sheets duo may have just developed a "close source" or more reliable source in Carroll County than other podcasters. What could possibly be wrong with that? They started their reputation/investigative podcast by bringing focus to murders of young men who were not high priority or conventionally front page news. There is NO WAY I could ever criticize anything they say or do... I am humbled by the work they did for young men whose passing was dismissed by so many. Perhaps because of their early work "insiders" find them trustworthy? (W&B, Watergate, and their source comes to mind.) Maybe their efforts will encourage victims of CSAM to come forward with additional information.
Oh sad news...

 

[sandy_80]

So lets just say that a_shots' communications with L, which BP and KG have both confirmed did indeed happen, were coincidental and unrelated to the murders. And let's say LE lied about everything in the 2020 interview with KAK. Let's also say that all of KAK's device searches after the murders, the Samsung wiping before turning in to LE, and other such suspicious activities that KAK fully admits to and which were included in the 2017 Peru house search affidavit, are also meaningless to this case.

Then why would the ISP put out the a_shots ask at all, only days before KAK's original hearing date, with tips going to the A & L tip line? Why do that? Because KAK fooled them? Because LE is stupid or corrupt? Because the real killer is a random SK or otherwise unknown to LE and they just want to pin it on somebody? It doesn't make any sense.

I'm completely open to the idea that somebody else had access to the a_shots account or that L's personal data was shared with a third party. Maybe KAK had a role in that, or maybe not, IDK. But IMO, LE put that a_shots ask out there for a reason. After five years of basically nothing besides a couple of sketches and the bridge recording, this LE team does not seem likely to put out a name, fictitious or not, unless it had some kind of significance to the case. That's JMO.

you are starting by theorising LE knows
a simple answer would be is that they don't know....and if they are pushing into a certain direction..as they become more desperate with dead ends

 

[Batgirl 2.0]

Maybe DNA and forensics?

Forensics was offered at the high school from which my kids graduated. I would’ve loved to have had the opportunity to take something like that in high school, but it wasn’t offered in the early ‘80’s.

 

[TL4S]

you are starting by theorising LE knows
a simple answer would be is that they don't know....and if they are pushing into a certain direction..as they become more desperate with dead ends

What I'm theorizing is that LE is following leads they have made while investigating, not making haphazard guesses.

 

[sandy_80]

What I'm theorizing is that LE is following leads they have made while investigating, not making haphazard guesses.

what kind of leads except (KAK ) alleged cooperation or confessions ?
can you give examples of what they might have..

 

[TL4S]

what kind of leads except (KAK ) alleged cooperation or confessions ?
can you give examples of what they might have..

I don't know what evidence led ISP to the Dec. 2021 a_shots ask, but I don't think it was a baseless guess or last ditch effort. Regardless of what else we know, the family confirms L was in contact with an online profile named a_shots, the same profile ISP is now asking about. A profile we know was fake and catfishing for young girls, per the Peru house search affidavit.

It's possible a_shots has nothing to do with the murders, and it's also possible LE does not have a clue who committed those murders. Based on the fraction of evidence we, as the public, know about this case, of course we should consider those possibilities.

But LE does know all the evidence, and they seem to think a_shots is significant enough to warrant asking for tips on. Forget KAK's BS and the interview, forget MS podcast, forget the "leaked" anything. What we have is a Feb. 25, 2017 search affidavit for the Peru house, which included subpoenas from SC and other SM platforms for IP addresses on a_shots, which led to the Peru house and KAK's devices. We have evidence on that affidavit of catfishing. We have 30 CSAM-related charges for KAK. We have L communicating with the account associated with this, then being murdered. Finally, we have the a_shots ask requesting tips to the A & L tip line.

I don't know...in my own eyes it appears LE must have something tying these things together.

 

[rebelchild]

This is week 3 of the river search in Peru .. lets hope they find what they are looking for!

‘No coincidence’: Former FBI agent weighs in on ongoing river search in Peru

PERU, Ind. — Indiana State Police still aren’t saying anything about ongoing searches of the Wabash River near the home of a man who has been tied to the Delphi Murder Investigation. For thre…

cbs4indy.com

 

[Peppery]

Wasn’t it a summer science camp for teens? Junior or high school science isn’t generally associated with crime solving is it?

High schools in my area (east coast) offer a forensics class. It counts as a science elective. My child took it last year and it focused on crime scene investigation, chain of custody, analysis of biological evidence. A few times when talking about the class, it popped into my head that Libby would’ve loved that class. It’s such a shame the girls were robbed of all the opportunities life has to offer.

 

[IQuestion]

What I see and "I think" others are missing about KAK's involvement. I realized early on, KAK is not just a low level consumer/viewer of CSAM. He may have started out that way, but has evolved exponentially into a content creator, distributor, and possibly even worse! Is it difficult for anyone not to see that KAK, by age 22, had already felt entitled emboldened enough to be a designer, direct, deceive, broker and active participant in crimes against the most vulnerable in our society...children. His life didn't have the obligations of a spouse, financial responsibilities, school, a job or children. It was consuming every waking hour of his life. (Isn't that how it is for an addict....more is never enough?) Many of us follow investigations....but only after the crime has been committed. We do not create crime.
I have read of people who commit crimes, decide to change their lives for the better, and actually succeed. Then one day LE knocks on their door and says, "Mr. Ordinary Citizen, your DNA came up as a match to a murder that occurred 20 years (or 3 years) ago." Distancing and denial are strong emotions and I sense it in KAK. The only other scenario is akin to a long sought after bank robber having the misfortune of being in a bank while it is being robbed. I guess anything is possible....just not probable.
Oh well, g'night fellow sleuths...need to ZZZZzzzz. (Uh, good morning, I forgot to push the send button....)

 

[FrostedGlass]

What I see and "I think" others are missing about KAK's involvement. I realized early on, KAK is not just a low level consumer/viewer of CSAM. He may have started out that way, but has evolved exponentially into a content creator, distributor, and possibly even worse! Is it difficult for anyone not to see that KAK, by age 22, had already felt entitled emboldened enough to be a designer, direct, deceive, broker and active participant in crimes against the most vulnerable in our society...children. His life didn't have the obligations of a spouse, financial responsibilities, school, a job or children. It was consuming every waking hour of his life. (Isn't that how it is for an addict....more is never enough?) Many of us follow investigations....but only after the crime has been committed. We do not create crime.
I have read of people who commit crimes, decide to change their lives for the better, and actually succeed. Then one day LE knocks on their door and says, "Mr. Ordinary Citizen, your DNA came up as a match to a murder that occurred 20 years (or 3 years) ago." Distancing and denial are strong emotions and I sense it in KAK. The only other scenario is akin to a long sought after bank robber having the misfortune of being in a bank while it is being robbed. I guess anything is possible....just not probable.
Oh well, g'night fellow sleuths...need to ZZZZzzzz. (Uh, good morning, I forgot to push the send button....)

Why do you think we're missing that?

 

[IQuestion]

Why do you think we're missing that?

FROSTEDGLASS, Oh, you don't miss anything!! None of my favorite posters miss anything.(Big grin, I should probably edit my previous post...but controversy is better than nothing right now, IMO ). I should have figured out a better way. to define "others." I was kind of at a loss to convey the seriousness of the charges against KAK and how it might very well be a huge part of the Delphi murders.
Mea culpa maxima!
While on the subject, in your opinion, how do you feel KAK's past activities might dovetail with the murders in Delphi.
A. Pure coincidence
B. Innocent
C. Master manipulator (I have some sinister thoughts/possible ideas on this puppeteer. Looking up gas station in area...was he giving directions to someone else???)

 

[Charlot123]

If I were LE in Indiana, I would be concerned with justice, but also with two known cold cases. And I would not wish to bring attention to either, now. I’d like the public to forget about these two cases. Solve them, of course, but without extra attention. From this standpoint, I don’t understand how a planned leak of documents about KAK would help. If anything, it shines light on the whole case, and what wasn’t done during the search. And in the meantime, kids and adults disappear in other states, and everyone is activated. It doesn’t look like a very smart net, sorry. Outside of Indiana, some would be discussing CSAM, and some, rules and regulations. Some even, like me, why was Delphi DNA bad, if they so planned to prioritize it from 2017, and if court documents could leak, what kind of evidence could disappear? In short, where the cases are now, I’d want less attention from them, not more. If it is some Sherlock Holmes mousetrap, I am sort of skeptical.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

If I were LE in Indiana, I would be concerned with justice, but also with two known cold cases. And I would not wish to bring attention to either, now. I’d like the public to forget about these two cases. Solve them, of course, but without extra attention. From this standpoint, I don’t understand how a planned leak of documents about KAK would help. If anything, it shines light on the whole case, and what wasn’t done during the search. And in the meantime, kids and adults disappear in other states, and everyone is activated. It doesn’t look like a very smart net, sorry. Outside of Indiana, some would be discussing CSAM, and some, rules and regulations. Some even, like me, why was Delphi DNA bad, if they so planned to prioritize it from 2017, and if court documents could leak, what kind of evidence could disappear? In short, where the cases are now, I’d want less attention from them, not more. If it is some Sherlock Holmes mousetrap, I am sort of skeptical.

When this case finally concludes there will be books written. One of those books will be a textbook used in criminal justice courses entitled “How Not to Run an Investigation; One Thousand Ways to Turn a Six Month Case Into a Years Long Drudgery”. The chapter on ineffective communication will be nominated for a special Pulitzer Prize.

 

[FrostedGlass]

FROSTEDGLASS, Oh, you don't miss anything!! None of my favorite posters miss anything.(Big grin, I should probably edit my previous post...but controversy is better than nothing right now, IMO ). I should have figured out a better way. to define "others." I was kind of at a loss to convey the seriousness of the charges against KAK and how it might very well be a huge part of the Delphi murders.
Mea culpa maxima!
While on the subject, in your opinion, how do you feel KAK's past activities might dovetail with the murders in Delphi.
A. Pure coincidence
B. Innocent
C. Master manipulator (I have some sinister thoughts/possible ideas on this puppeteer. Looking up gas station in area...was he giving directions to someone else???)

I've been all over the place in this case and I haven't landed on a solid spot yet. I'm keeping an open mind to other users of the dropbox and phones. I don't think KAK murdered the girls and I don't think he's emilyanne. Based on MS, I'll consider that TK is involved in the CSAM but am not certain about any involvement in the murders. With that said about TK, I have found no criminal cases in the court records on him since 2010. On it's face, it would seem that he learned his lessons and stayed out of trouble since.

Without the MS episodes, I would be thinking that KAK was the sole 'owner' of the CSAM stuff.

Going way back, some of our posters thought it odd that the nation-wide billboards had large pics of the girls and only a small image of BG. One would wonder if LE was fishing for leads from anyone who might have seen their pics online. Do we have a date handy for when the billboards went up?