Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #148

[NoSpoonFeeding]

this is what they call criminally insane, criminally insane.

I don't see either TK or KAK as being insane, or criminally insane, nor do I think KAK will use it as a defense.
TK, that I know of, has not been accused or shown to be involved in his son's criminal activities. I don't agree with the speculation that they are or could be a team, responsible for the murders, based only on the information that is known.

KAK has taken responsibility for soliciting nude photos etc. and most likely will plead guilty to some charges. Just not something a criminally sane person would do, in my opinion.

criminal insanity

www.law.cornell.edu

 

[Seattle1]

I don't see either TK or KAK as being insane, or criminally insane, nor do I think KAK will use it as a defense.
TK, that I know of, has not been accused or shown to be involved in his son's criminal activities. I don't agree with the speculation that they are or could be a team, responsible for the murders, based only on the information that is known.

KAK has taken responsibility for soliciting nude photos etc. and most likely will plead guilty to some charges. Just not something a criminally sane person would do, in my opinion.

criminal insanity

www.law.cornell.edu

There are 11 states in which the burden of proof in an insanity case lies with the state --meaning that it’s up to the prosecution to demonstrate that the defendant was sane at the time of his/her crime. Except for Idaho, Kansas, Montana, and Utah, which do not allow insanity pleas, all other states including Indiana place the burden of proof on the defendant.

It's extremely rare to succeed with a NGRI, and IMO, for the most part, used as an attempt to bring in mental health disorder evidence not otherwise admitted (i.e., sympathy at sentencing).

NGRI has been a big discussion in Colorado's 11 yr old Gannon Stauch's murder where the defendant is using NGRI for limited purposes -- crimes after the murder. Fortunately, Colorado is one of the 11 states where the burden rests with the prosecution.

From the Indiana Law Journal:

http://ilj.law.indiana.edu/articles/81/81_4_Grachek.pdf

 

[minazoe]

I don't see either TK or KAK as being insane, or criminally insane, nor do I think KAK will use it as a defense.
TK, that I know of, has not been accused or shown to be involved in his son's criminal activities. I don't agree with the speculation that they are or could be a team, responsible for the murders, based only on the information that is known.

KAK has taken responsibility for soliciting nude photos etc. and most likely will plead guilty to some charges. Just not something a criminally sane person would do, in my opinion.

criminal insanity

www.law.cornell.edu

I wasn't really thinking about an insanity defense but more about a permanent instability that is beyond the definition. of clinical insanity. perhaps that is why they no loner use this term. I use the term to describe an habitual violent offender and psychopath, An individual that no one can ever be safe alone with, where the public can never be fully safe.

here's a grown man in a ski mask peeping at little teenage girls, trespassing and violating the sanctity of that home.

it's that isn't deranged I don't know what is and whatever the definition they are not safe. KAK may be a passive participant in this and it's sad to think he could get a deal in this mess. mOO

 

[digiskunk]

It can be so difficult to follow this case due to the complex details and timeline—not to mention the rapidly changing developments—so I only follow the case casually these days. I learned about the latest developments last night and it left me rather stunned. The evidence against both KK & TK is fairly overwhelming and, even if one were to argue it's "coincidental", I feel that it's too damning to ignore.

I keep thinking about TK's inconsistent visits to KK in jail: He'd disappear for awhile, only to reappear and visit him regularly. If those aren't red flags, I don't know what is.

Please correct me if any of this information is wrong or lacking proper context!

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

This just popped into my mind…Wouldn’t it be something else if both TK & KAK were a serial killing team.

*Just thinking out loud.*

 

[PnzrIVausf.G]

IDK,I see a discrepancy in the time line,that's just my analysis thus my opinion.

 

[IceIce9]

the river looks fairly shallow in the recent picture, but would something really stay in one place in it for years- doesn't it have highs and lows? I have trouble imagining a weapon (unless it was a canon) staying anywhere in the river bed for that long. Am I wrong?

A little known fact is that the fire department dive teams conduct many more dives to find weapons or evidence than to search for bodies.

Often they find evidence that has been sitting at the bottom of a pond or creek for years.

 

[JnRyan]

A little known fact is that the fire department dive teams conduct many more dives to find weapons or evidence than to search for bodies.

Often they find evidence that has been sitting at the bottom of a pond or creek for years.

Looking at Adventures with Purpose videos even when they haven't found a vehicle, they've found firearms. On at least one occasion they found more than one in a dive. Some of them obviously appear to have been under water for quite some time.

 

[acutename]

A little known fact is that the fire department dive teams conduct many more dives to find weapons or evidence than to search for bodies.

Often they find evidence that has been sitting at the bottom of a pond or creek for years.

maybe something is still there- most of the streams and creeks I see flood periodically and pretty heavy things- trash cans, picnic tables, little mini bridges, get dislodged and moved.
maybe also a metal object sunken into the stream bed is less mobile.

here is a graph of the Wabash River at Peru from Aug 2016 to today:

https://nwis.waterdata.usgs.gov/in/nwis/uv/?cb_00045=on&cb_00060=on&cb_00065=on&format=gif_default&site_no=03327500&period=&begin_date=2016-08-01&end_date=2022-08-28

seems to vary a lot over time.

 

[digiskunk]

This just popped into my mind…Wouldn’t it be something else if both TK & KAK were a serial killing team.

*Just thinking out loud.*

It's a terrifying thought, isn't it? The worst part is that it actually is a possibility...

 

[Ozoner]

Th

maybe something is still there- most of the streams and creeks I see flood periodically and pretty heavy things- trash cans, picnic tables, little mini bridges, get dislodged and moved.
maybe also a metal object sunken into the stream bed is less mobile.

here is a graph of the Wabash River at Peru from Aug 2016 to today:

https://nwis.waterdata.usgs.gov/in/nwis/uv/?cb_00045=on&cb_00060=on&cb_00065=on&format=gif_default&site_no=03327500&period=&begin_date=2016-08-01&end_date=2022-08-28

seems to vary a lot over time.

In a river, the current is strongest in the middle and weaker around the margins, including the bottom.
Source: Rivers and Streams, and erosional processes

A heavy object on the bottom of a river would not move much.

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

I use the term to describe an habitual violent offender and psychopath

In my opinion, there is no evidence that either KAK or TK are habitual violent offenders, they aren't even felons. I'm not aware of an alternative definition for this term. Neither has a felony arrest record in Indiana, are there cases in other states?

Still, no evidence that TK is involved in the murders, and there is a lot of labeling and accusations being made based on very little information.

IF LE has no real evidence at this time, I don't think anything will affect KAK's pending plea/sentence, he's eligible for the same sentences given to anyone else with the same charges. Here are two cases that might give an indication of KAK's sentence if he enters a plea deal. There are numerous sentencing examples if you google sentencing *advertiser censored*, where the defendant was only sentenced to several years.

These two men plead guilty in Indiana and will be out in 14 and 19 years, for far worse (in my opinion) crimes than KAK's.

/fox59.com/indiana-news/2-indiana-predators-sentenced-to-federal-prison-for-using-social-media-to-sexually-exploit-minors/?ipid=promo-link-block1

 

[IceIce9]

And I get that but why do reporters keep stating that "5 1/2 years" later as if that information about a clear connection doesn't exist? That's what bugs me so much.

Exactly.

 

[Prime8]

And I get that but why do reporters keep stating that "5 1/2 years" later as if that information about a clear connection doesn't exist? That's what bugs me so much.

Because they don't want to get sued. LE may also be asking them to take it easy with the language due to a variety of reasons. It could be a mixture of everything.

 

[Prime8]

I hope whatever it is ..its not what le has claimed to be avoiding all along
false confessions
the MS has MADE it easier by leaking the search doc with some long hidden facts...its easier now to invent stuff along the way

In all honesty, we don't know that for sure. Yes, some details have been leaked but there's still a lot we don't know (injuries to the girls, evidence at the scene, what the staging is about). MS has noted that they have spoken to LE and LE said they are okay with the information they have been sharing.

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

The evidence against both KK & TK is fairly overwhelming and, even if one were to argue it's "coincidental", I feel that it's too damning to ignore

I only see overwhelming and damning evidence in KAK's *advertiser censored* charges. Is it just your feeling or opinion that TK is involved in some crime? If not, what is the evidence you're referring to?

 

[Prime8]

I guess it would depend on rainfall and flooding, water is a powerful force.

It also depends on the sediment. If it sinks deep immediately, it's probably not going anywhere.

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

From a company that trains SAR, LE​

Go Ahead Throw Your Weapon Over a Bridge, We’ll Find It​

Go Ahead Throw Your Weapon Over a Bridge, We'll Find It -

Do you know the Do's and Don'ts of recovering evidence thrown over a bridge? Just because it's lost in the water somewhere, doesn't mean it can't be found and used in an investigation.

www.tdisdi.com

 

[Falling Down]

Has there been confirmation the Marathon (gas station) in Delphi is definitely part of the KK investigation?

Following...

 

[JnRyan]

From a company that trains SAR, LE​

Go Ahead Throw Your Weapon Over a Bridge, We’ll Find It​

Go Ahead Throw Your Weapon Over a Bridge, We'll Find It -

Do you know the Do's and Don'ts of recovering evidence thrown over a bridge? Just because it's lost in the water somewhere, doesn't mean it can't be found and used in an investigation.

www.tdisdi.com

I suppose that is true IF they already know WHICH bridge to search under. We have WAY too many bridges to search in my area now, including 3 or 4 that are miles long. Where I grew up there were NUMEROUS boat rental operations on nearby lakes and bayous. John boats. Just pay your money and head on out. Don't have a motor, some places rented those, too, and if not a paddle or paddles were included.