Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #91

[CSIDreamer]

It's really not fair to make fun of the people (and I am one of them) that hear words that have been distorted after "guys". I have enough experience with audio to know that what you hear there has been distorted. It's not simply a phone in a pocket rubbing on the inside of that pocket. If you have ever used a program like Audacity and played around a bit with the filters, you know what distorted voices or sounds sound like. And several people heard the same thing without talking to each other about it. And yes, you definitely need headphones.

The thing is, I said it could be pareidolia, but I am not the only one who hears it. And no, it's not the same as seeing monkeys dangling from trees and puppies in his pants that make him walk funny. Whatever that sound is has nothing to do with armchair sleuths trying to solve the case by seeing things that are not there. It is just about the shock of hearing something like that and trying to share this feeling with others. And yes, it is all just my opinion and of course not a fact.

I usually don't have problems with listening to all kinds of recordings like 911 calls, etc. But I will never be able to listen to this recording again. I don't know if it is pareidolia or not but I can't unhear it and it is very disturbing to me. It's just a horrible case that has been unsolved for too long.

For the record, in case you think I was making fun of you since I brought it up. I wasn't. Just using it as an example of how things take off.

 

[MistyWaters]

I think there is no way anybody drunk or high or disabled or an amputee gets up on that bridge. He walks weird because it’s an old rickety bridge and he’s watching his steps.
I still maintain the witness from February 17th was there to report something odd he had seen by someone helping with the aftermath of the killings(helping cops, crowd control, comforting people, funerals, behind the scene stuff, etc) and ended up being reassured and dismissed by some local cop that the person they were reporting on was some respected person, known by everyone in town, and was being a great help to everyone...so don’t worry about it. And the whole report found the bottom of someone’s drawer until some real evidence popped up recently pointing to that respected guy. Would explain the comments at the PC about “you not thinking we would change directions...etc.
Just my thoughts but it’s the only scenario I can come up with that makes sense.
I do think this is a huge break and think their close. Crossing fingers.

The date of the sighting of the parked car was amended to Feb 13th, the same day of the murders. So I agree, there must’ve been something specific about the driver that caused the witness to contact police. I’d be curious, how did the witness know it was parked there from noon to 5pm or was it captured by CCTV.

 

[Miya]

My thoughts regarding this have been "this is not helping solve this case and can even be seen as voyeuristic and disrespectful to the victims" (by trying to hear them). However, IF they are on it talking AND it's not what folks here have heard but instead it's them saying a person's name.....it could be helpful to keep trying to listen to what's "between the lines" so to speak.

Oh dear, I was NOT trying to hear them. I watched a video that had it on a loop and I didn't pay any attention to the sound in between the perps voice and the loop went on and on and I heard it without even trying to hear if the girls could be heard because I was sure that LE edited them out. All l was saying is that it shocked me. Calling me voyeuristic and disrespectful to the victims is an insult and I am back to lurking for now.

Oh, and if people here think that any posts here will solve the case ... people are here to discuss the case and to speculate. I am 99,9 % sure that nobody here will solve the case.

Eta: Police knows what is in between the perps words and it's probably helpful to them, we don't need to know. If a name was said, they know, why would you need this information?

 

[Madison418]

It’s coming. Carter is this mad because this person is known and he betrayed many people. Sadly, as I will keep saying, more pain is coming for the families. And now I believe they continually said “little girls” (about 7 times in PC) because he is probably a dad to someone.

This is a good point. Also, when he says "what will they think when they find out you brutally murdered little girls?" Sounds like this is a person that is viewed in a positive light and possibly a family man...could be another BTK IMO

 

[RedBeard]

Ita I don’t understand the amputee theory.
He may have an unusual gait, from birth.
If he had a weapon concealed in his pants or under his jacket, it could change his stride, imo.

Any local here that walk the bridge?
I have not for years, it was frightening then.

I live by a similar albeit much smaller bridge (about 250 yards from my back gate if that) and it's hard to walk on rail bridges, especially when the wood is rotting, the guy just appears to anxious and trying to not stumble. There is no difference in the movement of his hips to indicate he is working harder to walk on a different leg. The error in movement appears to be a subconscious thing made more noticeable by the fact he is walking on an old rickety rail bridge.

 

[CSIDreamer]

Please don't tell me that someone has actually said that he may have had a voice box in a previous post.You were just being cheeky right?

No. It's been mentioned.

 

[carmenugt]

Hi everyone, I am new here and have gotten a lot from all the posts. I used to live in West Lafayette so I have followed this case since the start.
My thoughts FWIW:
A person can have a different way of walking and still be young. Both of my stepkids had to have hip surgery in high school for congenital defects. They are fully able to jog, walk on any terrain, etc. but their gaits are a little off - almost like bowlegged or deliberate kind of walking. I don't think BG has a disability because he would have problems walking on the bridge and down the hill and not attempted this attack, but he could have the same sort of situation my stepkids did. There are a lot of people of German decent in this area and they have a broader build (wider hips and shoulders).

Maybe these aren't his clothes, he dresses completely differently on a daily basis. It seems from other cases of serial killers/rapists that part of the obsession is thinking about the act and preparing for it. I think he might have gone to a thrift store or really any store and bought these clothes just for this purpose. I think he lived out this scenario in his mind many, many times before he did it and got a thrill from preparing for it.

Delphi is not far from West Lafayette/Lafayette and Indianapolis. If this person is from "the area" they probably went to walk on this bridge as a teenager and know if school is out and the weather is good teenagers will be hanging out there. I think he either went to the area before looking for this opportunity or he catfished Libby (since she was the one with the phone) so he knew at least she would be there but maybe not Abby. Kids in this area commonly go to areas like the bridge, a quarry that has been flooded into a lake and park areas to hang out together. There really isn't a lot going on if you are a teenager.

His voice and accent sounds very much like someone from this area. When I moved into the area I was surprised by how many people have a sort of southern inflection in the way they speak. People refer to everyone, even animals, as "guys". No kidding. Geese flying overhead - hey look at those guys! It is just how people talk there.

JMO but thanks for considering them!

Agree. I go to West Lafayette all the time. I dont' think his clothes are any different from what people wear there in the winter. I always preface if this guy is not an amputee, he has a back/hip or leg injury. What do you mean us people from Indiana have accents? lol. I get that all the time. I never knew I had one until I left Indiana and was told. Yea, we tend to say "guys" alot.

 

[Trudie]

I live by a similar albeit much smaller bridge (about 250 yards from my back gate if that) and it's hard to walk on rail rail bridges, especially when the wood is rotting, the guy just appears to anxious and trying to not stumble. There is no difference in the movement of his hips to indicate he is working harder to walk on a different leg. The error in movement appears to be a subconscious thing made more noticeable by the fact he is walking on an old rickety rail bridge.

I have not been across the bridge in 4-5 years & it petrified me, lol. It was in very bad shape, similar to many near where I grew up. They were eventually torn down.
Uneven boards, broken wood & gaps can make it hard to maintain balance. I do think he was hurrying, attributing to his gait being viewed as odd. Jmo

 

[carmenugt]

I'd like to ask Matt Johnson (welcome to WS) if he thinks there is or is not DNA?

I dont know how there could not be DNA.

 

[Blueberry2720]

Following up on my last post ... I hope you can follow my logic here, based on the following 2 observations.

1.) I have repeatedly read here that BG had to have been walking across the bridge rather quickly in order to have caught up with the girls. This implies/assumes BG started on the bridge from the same place the girls did where the initial trail ends. I don't care how many times someone has walked across that bridge and is familiar with it, I do not think anyone would cross it at a "fast" pace.

2.) Additionally, there has been much speculation that BG was familiar with the far end of the bridge where he took the girls down the hill, across the water and further up in the woods towards the cemetery - and - that he made his getaway up there.

What I wonder is this - perhaps he started crossing the bridge from the far end while the girls were also on the bridge, thus, he and the girls were walking TOWARDS each other. At some point, they passed each other, and the girls saw him face on. Then, at some point soon after that, BG turned around, began walking in the SAME direction as the girls, thus following them. Perhaps the girls looked back for some reason and it was then that they noticed him following them, and one commented about the creepy guy again. BG could have orchestrated and timed this scenario to ensure he could easily and quickly catch up with them just as the bridge ended, and thus, quickly hustle them "down the hill". If he had to cross the entire bridge to catch up with them, I think it would have been difficult for him to time everything so perfectly to the point that he could overtake them just as the bridge ended.

ETA: grammar fixes for clarity

 

[RedBeard]

I have not been across the bridge in 4-5 years & it petrified me, lol. It was in very bad shape, similar to many near where I grew up. They were eventually torn down.
Uneven boards, broken wood & gaps can make it hard to maintain balance. I do think he was hurrying, attributing to his gait. Jmo

yea the one by my house is half burnt, has holes all over the place that you can't see unless you are right next to, the one by my house atleast has guard rails. They are actually going to make a hiking trail out of the entire rail line from San Francisco up to about 200 miles north of where I live so they may rebuild it. But it's dangerous and besides the bad wood there are railroad spikes, nails all kinds of stuff sticking out.

 

[Trudie]

This is a good point. Also, when he says "what will they think when they find out you brutally murdered little girls?" Sounds like this is a person that is viewed in a positive light and possibly a family man...could be another BTK IMO

Almost as if trying to shame him. IMO, the comments directed towards the murderer only to scare him, make him think they know more than they do. I don’t think he scares easily. Jmo

 

[RedBeard]

Following up on my last post ... I hope you can follow my logic here, based on the following 2 observations.

1.) I have repeatedly read here that BG had to have been walking across the bridge rather quickly in order to have caught up with the girls. This implies/assumes BG started on the bridge from the same place the girls did where the initial trail ends. I don't care how many times someone has walked across that bridge and is familiar with it, I do not think a anyone would cross it at "fast" pace.

2.) Additionally, there has been much speculation that BG was familiar with the far end of the bridge where he took the girls down the hill, across the water and further up in the woods towards the cemetery - and - that he made his getaway up there.

What I wonder is this - perhaps he started and the far end and 1st crossed the bridge from that end while the girls were also on the bridge, thus, he and the girls were walking TOWARDS each other. At some point, they passed each other, and the girls saw him face on. Then, at some point soon after that, BG turned around, began walking in the SAME direction as the girls, thus following them. Perhaps the girls looked back for some reason and it was then that they noticed him following them, and one commented about the creepy guy again. BG could have orchestrated and timed this scenario to ensure he could easily and quickly catch up with them just as the bridge ended, and thus, quickly hustled them "down the hill". If he had to cross the entire bridge to catch up with them, I think it would have been difficult for him to time everything so perfectly to the point that he could overtake them just as the bridge ended.

Look at my condensed theory back around page 3 it lines up a bit with your observations/theory.

 

[carmenugt]

Oh dear, I was NOT trying to hear them. I watched a video that had it on a loop and I didn't pay any attention to the sound in between the perps voice and the loop went on and on and I heard it without even trying to hear if the girls could be heard because I was sure that LE edited them out. All l was saying is that it shocked me. Calling me voyeuristic and disrespectful to the victims is an insult and I am back to lurking for now.

Oh, and if people here think that any posts here will solve the case ... people are here to discuss the case and to speculate. I am 99,9 % sure that nobody here will solve the case.

Eta: Police knows what is in between the perps words and it's probably helpful to them, we don't need to know. If a name was said, they know, why would you need this
information?

Don't lurk. Your opinion has value. Everything about sleuthing can appear voyeuristic. It is only through perspective that we can gather opinion and detail. If what is being noted is bothersome to anyone, I suggest just keep scrolling past to something more palatable for you. Nothing about his is easy.

 

[holtzmann]

Following up on my last post ... I hope you can follow my logic here, based on the following 2 observations.

1.) I have repeatedly read here that BG had to have been walking across the bridge rather quickly in order to have caught up with the girls. This implies/assumes BG started on the bridge from the same place the girls did where the initial trail ends. I don't care how many times someone has walked across that bridge and is familiar with it, I do not think a anyone would cross it at "fast" pace.

2.) Additionally, there has been much speculation that BG was familiar with the far end of the bridge where he took the girls down the hill, across the water and further up in the woods towards the cemetery - and - that he made his getaway up there.

What I wonder is this - perhaps he started and the far end and 1st crossed the bridge from that end while the girls were also on the bridge, thus, he and the girls were walking TOWARDS each other. At some point, they passed each other, and the girls saw him face on. Then, at some point soon after that, BG turned around, began walking in the SAME direction as the girls, thus following them. Perhaps the girls looked back for some reason and it was then that they noticed him following them, and one commented about the creepy guy again. BG could have orchestrated and timed this scenario to ensure he could easily and quickly catch up with them just as the bridge ended, and thus, quickly hustled them "down the hill". If he had to cross the entire bridge to catch up with them, I think it would have been difficult for him to time everything so perfectly to the point that he could overtake them just as the bridge ended.

This is a really interesting take on things, and would explain their reference to seeing him again. It also fits with the far end of the bridge being closer to where the vehicle parked at the old CPS building was seen (if that was indeed BG's car).

The only thing I wonder is that if this was the case, then BG did not pass them until after Libby took the photo of Abby looking back toward the trail head, as there is very visibly no one behind Abby in that shot. That's a pretty tight turn around.

The other thing is that they were closer to the sixth platform rather than the very end of the bridge judging by the video of BG approaching them. It's a negligible distance but I don't think that he overtook them exactly as they reached solid ground again. I think he addressed them from the bridge as he was approaching.

 

[CSIDreamer]

Following up on my last post ... I hope you can follow my logic here, based on the following 2 observations.

1.) I have repeatedly read here that BG had to have been walking across the bridge rather quickly in order to have caught up with the girls. This implies/assumes BG started on the bridge from the same place the girls did where the initial trail ends. I don't care how many times someone has walked across that bridge and is familiar with it, I do not think anyone would cross it at a "fast" pace.

2.) Additionally, there has been much speculation that BG was familiar with the far end of the bridge where he took the girls down the hill, across the water and further up in the woods towards the cemetery - and - that he made his getaway up there.

What I wonder is this - perhaps he started and the far end and 1st crossed the bridge from that end while the girls were also on the bridge, thus, he and the girls were walking TOWARDS each other. At some point, they passed each other, and the girls saw him face on. Then, at some point soon after that, BG turned around, began walking in the SAME direction as the girls, thus following them. Perhaps the girls looked back for some reason and it was then that they noticed him following them, and one commented about the creepy guy again. BG could have orchestrated and timed this scenario to ensure he could easily and quickly catch up with them just as the bridge ended, and thus, quickly hustled them "down the hill". If he had to cross the entire bridge to catch up with them, I think it would have been difficult for him to time everything so perfectly to the point that he could overtake them just as the bridge ended.

I agree with this so much. Especially with the new info on the parked car.

 

[iamthewalrus]

I think the notion of them knowing at least the guy on the bridge is heavy speculation; the girls don't turn to him, he barely turns and looks at the girls. This guy is a stranger to them. You can hear the tone of his voice is how someone would talk to a stranger; even kinda sounds like how a Cop talks to me, starts out deep and goes higher; this could be due to the fact he is nervous.

EXACTLY what I thought, sounds like a cop.

 

[Ravenmoon]

In the new photo, besides the hair what ONE or two things stands out as PROMINENT to everyone? What would a witness have made a point to detail about his face? I’m curious to know your thoughts.

Great question:
2 things that stand out:
The eyes/eyelids. Either he has heavy eyelids, a lazy eye, or one of his eyes is slightly (but noticeably ) lower than the other.

The prominence of his chin. It appears elongated and "sharp" .

MOO

 

[Madison418]

Almost as if trying to shame him. IMO, the comments directed towards the murderer only to scare him, make him think they know more than they do. I don’t think he scares easily. Jmo

I agree, it does seem like they are trying to shame him but I wonder how much shame can you evoke from a person who murders 2 young girls for what seems like sport?

All IMO

 

[HockeyMom330]

I was trying to think outside the box for a different theory which may account for BG not taking/destroying Libby's phone, and also for the discrpencies between the first and more recent composite sketch, as well as taking into considerations many of the brilliant points expressed by fellow WSers. Here's what I came up with (sorry if it is long):

BG was the driver of the vehicle parked near the abandoned CPS buiding (hence LE's request for tips about the identify of the driver) and he walked in to the trailhead system carrying some type of bag (early on the public was asked to be on the lookout for a backpack/duffelbag). BG arrived in the Monon High Bridge area shortly after 12:00pm (vehicle parked from 12:00-5pm--info released at press conference), wheras the girls did not arrive until after 1:00pm (as stated by Kelsi who dropped them off). This meant BG had 60-90 minutes to scope the scene before the girls came on site. I have no opinion as to whether he was there specifically to target them, or if he was just trolling for any suitable victim and the girls were in the proverbial wrong spot at the wrong time.

I think a witness saw BG sometime between 12:00-1:00pm, before the girls even arrived--maybe he was sitting on a park bench or wandering the trails--and gave a description to LE that matched the trooper's composite (the one that was just released). I think BG noticed the girls when they were dropped off or when they were walking the 501 trail, and they likely saw him too. I think he then headed for a seculded place (maybe a shed/barn on a nearby property--hence the reference to the Shack) to change his appearane. He likely had extra clothing, a hat, maybe a wig, fake facial hair and a weapon in his bag (in the presser Carter said to the killer, "you changed"--maybe this was meant to be taken literally, that he changed clothing or camoflaged his appearance and LE is letting BG know that they know that).

While BG was 'changing', Abby and Libby were making their way towards the bridge. The 2:07pm Snapchat photo gives a sense of their timeline, and seems to suggest they were not in any trouble at that point. Grey Hughes' videos do a good job showing the theorized crime scene flow and relative positions of BG and the girls on the bridge. Based on these videos I think that BG (in his new older, heavier looking appearance) started following the girls on the bridge and ambushed them just as they were getting off the bridge. I think the speed at which he was closing in on them, and perhaps his disguise, caused the girls to be 'creeped' and Libby turned on her phone to video record for evidence. She captured video of BG approaching and the beginning of the attack (early on LE said something to the effect of Libby having the precence of mind to turn on her phone at the onset of criminal behaviour). At this point he says "Guys" to get their attention and he pulls a weapon (likely a gun based on the outline of the object observed to be in his jacket pocket). The girls scream (the garbled portion of the audio) and he then directs them "down the hill". They comply out of fear and loyalty to each other.

If BG really is in the 18-40 age range, and at least of average intelligence, I have to believe that he would have assumed one of the girls had a phone, and he may have even noticed Libby recording or saw the girls using the phone earlier. Libby did a good job hiding the phone, and probably didn't realize that he knew they were recording. I think the reason he didn't take or destroy the phone is because he is so arrogant/cocky that he believed he was so well disguised that LE would never suspect him based on the images on the phone. He thinks he is 'untouchable' (maybe because of his position in the community) and actually wanted the video/audio to be released so the whole world would know how 'clever' his deviant crimes were. In his mind the recording has captured his proudest moments of being powerful (Carter said in the presser that they know this is about 'power'). It probably gave him great pleasure to see LE release the still image of BG, which looks very little like his authentic self. At this point he thinks he has outsmarted LE (but now according to the presser LE has 'changed direction' and is 'just beginning'.

Once the girls were led "down the hill" I think they knew for sure they were in trouble. I have no desire to theorize on the gory details that are the "stuff of nightmares" or how their bodies ended up on the other side of the creek. Something about the way the bodies were left stood out to LE though as being unique or sadistic, perhaps something ritualistic (hence the religous connotations of the presser). In terms of a time frame I think the girls were either deceased, or at least under BG's control, by 3:11pm. That is when DG texted Libby to let her know he was almost at the pick up spot (girls had pre-arranged a ride for 3:15pm). Libby never responded to that message or any further ones.

Since BG's car didn't leave the abandoned lot until 5:00pm, I think he hung out in the area for a while after the murders. This may not have been his original intent, but DG started walking the trails and asking people about the girls wherabouts as quickly as 3:15pm. It is quite possible BG saw or heard people searching for them and needed to lay low. Around this time is when I think a different witness saw BG, hence the composite of him looking older and heavier and with facial hair and a hat. I think LE put more value on this sighting because it was so much closer to the estimated time of the murders, compared to the one given by the witness who saw BG much earlier in the day. And it was also so much more in line with what they saw in Libby's video. When the coast was clear I think BG changes out of his disguise and walks back towards his car to exit the scene.

I think the new information/direction is that LE now understands that the two composites from different witnesses are actually the same person (Carter didn't say to disregard the first sketch, but rather that it would be secondary). BG looked older and scruffier during commission of the murder, but actually looks younger and more cleaner cut in everyday life. I think somehow this link was made throught he parked vehicle.

For what its worth, I don't think LE have much usable DNA or a specific suspect in mind. I think they have a profile and still need the public's assistance to solve this crime.