Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #98

[MistyWaters]

Makes sense. It’s hard not to speculate and over analyze every little thing when you aren’t given much to go on.

Now that you mention it, speculate and over analyze every little thing is what we do best.

 

[margarita25]

Regarding phrases in Kentucky: y'all. If there are a few y'alls it becomes "all of y'all".

(Heehee, this is so true )

 

[Choochoobella]

I'm sorry; I don't know how to carry a quote over from a previous thread. I just snipped and pasted the above.

It was me who wrote that LE said the re-enactments were not correct. That was back in Thread #87. Here was the post:

I have seen some of Gray's videos and have found them to be very helpful in visualizing the way the crime may have unfolded.

However, Indiana State Police Sgt. Jerry Holeman has made an interesting comment about the reenactment videos. I don't know if he is referring to the videos made by Gray or by Anthony Greeno or by someone else (or by all of them).

Here's what Sargent Holeman said: “The videos help us know that people don’t know the true details, because the facts haven’t been released,” Holeman says. “People watch the news and think they are picking up on things, but it’s false. Nothing out there is accurate, which only leads to more false tips.”

In addressing concerns that police have held back too many details on such a high-profile case, Holeman said that is standard protocol for ongoing investigations. He said, "We do that so when we get key evidence, only the killer or killers know the cause of death. We don’t release it to the media because then everyone and their brother would know, and it’s common to get false confessions from mentally disturbed people. So we’re trying to keep the details close to our vests.”

Why Police Have Not Released Details on the Murders of Libby German and Abby Williams from Delphi, Indiana

Choochoobella, Feb 20, 2019Report
#1153

 

[margarita25]

I just hope it won't be next year.

Jumping of this and just saying, there is a double homicidal child killer unapprehended. That’s about as bad as it gets.

ETA: No epiphany of course, just reiterating that this also impacts the potential of future victims as well, so it really feels like a race against time.

Imo it was possibly bold and risky to engage the suspect, but hey they know what they’re doing and know a lot more than we do.

 

[Eleanor Rigby]

I wanted to bring this over from previous thread (I expanded on post ) because I'm curious as to what others may think:

Which scenario, if any of these, is more likely?

The girls were forced at gunpoint down the hill and then ran at some point. They were the ones who knew where to cross the creek. Then he caught up with at least one of them..Abby? Abby was caught and Libby chose to stay and defend her friend (or visa versa). This would show that he lost control of the situation at some point and that there was an intense struggle between BG and at least one of the girls.

Or...#2
He knew the area well enough to know where to cross the creek and led the girls to the area where they were found. He had the spot and escape route all planned out. Maybe he even placed a duffel bag there ahead of time with "tools" and change of clothes. Early on I believe there was some talk of a "duffel bag".

Or..
Did they double back across the bridge and not cross the creek at all? If these murders weren't meticulously planned then maybe it is a possibility?

Does it even matter?

I'm guessing the second scenario. MOO.

 

[MassGuy]

Well, unless BG has been living under a rock, whether he heard a ring or not, I would think he would assume there’s a strong likelihood that one or both of these teens had a phone. Apparently, it seemed of no consequence to him. MOO

I think it was a rookie mistake, not uncommon among first time killers.

He either saw the phone and forgot about it, or it never occurred to him to look for one in the first place.

I think it’s likely that he had no idea that Libby had recorded him.

It’s always nice when a victim is able to bring their killer to justice.

It may not be the reason he is caught, but it very well might aid in his conviction when he is.

 

[Boxer]

View attachment 182556

I'm sorry; I don't know how to carry a quote over from a previous thread. I just snipped and pasted the above.

It was me who wrote that LE said the re-enactments were not correct. That was back in Thread #87. Here was the post:

I have seen some of Gray's videos and have found them to be very helpful in visualizing the way the crime may have unfolded.

However, Indiana State Police Sgt. Jerry Holeman has made an interesting comment about the reenactment videos. I don't know if he is referring to the videos made by Gray or by Anthony Greeno or by someone else (or by all of them).

Here's what Sargent Holeman said: “The videos help us know that people don’t know the true details, because the facts haven’t been released,” Holeman says. “People watch the news and think they are picking up on things, but it’s false. Nothing out there is accurate, which only leads to more false tips.”

In addressing concerns that police have held back too many details on such a high-profile case, Holeman said that is standard protocol for ongoing investigations. He said, "We do that so when we get key evidence, only the killer or killers know the cause of death. We don’t release it to the media because then everyone and their brother would know, and it’s common to get false confessions from mentally disturbed people. So we’re trying to keep the details close to our vests.”

Why Police Have Not Released Details on the Murders of Libby German and Abby Williams from Delphi, Indiana

Choochoobella, Feb 20, 2019Report
#1153

And also only true witnesses will have correct details, such as color and the type of vehicle parked at the CPS building.

 

[ab01]

The DA is an elected position. Ives is returning as one of the asst. DA's. (sworn in by his successor)
His return could be meaningful or just coincidental.
I hope it is meaningful.

I don't know how green behind the ears the new DA is but could it be possible that he could use some help by a seasoned former DA, if say an extremely high profile murder trial may be in the near future?

 

[allboys]

I think it was a rookie mistake, not uncommon among first time killers.

He either saw the phone and forgot about it, or it never occurred to him to look for one in the first place.

I think it’s likely that he had no idea that Libby had recorded him.

It’s always nice when a victim is able to bring their killer to justice.

It may not be the reason he is caught, but it very well might aid in his conviction when he is.

Yes, and it may speak to the psychology of BG too. For example, my step-dad is a very socially challenged, left brained, engineer minded individual. My mom finally convinced him to get a cell phone, but he never uses it. While cell phones are a very big part of daily lives for many of us, perhaps it isn’t something on the mind of BG. Especially if he’s consumed mentally and physically by his (sick) task at hand.

But like you said, a rookie mistake seems perfectly possible as well.

 

[heyjudette]

ON another note, I showed my sons the pic of the unsub and they listened to the voice recordings. They both think he is in his early to mid 20s and they are in this age group as well. Thoughts?

ETA personally, I think he looks late 20s and his voice to me sounds older as well.

I played it for my boyfriend and he thought it sounded like a middle aged man. However my boyfriend who is 33 kind of sounds like he’s 20ish himself... I myself keep going back and forth guessing an age for the voice. I think I’m realizing that it’s just very hard to judge a person’s age by the sound of their voice. :/

 

[dotr]

Love the way the perp gets slapped down and reminded that he is no mighty hunter or conqueror of women, but essentially a weak and cowardly poacher of small fry. imo.

'Hiding in plain sight': Suspect in Delphi girls' double murder may be a local
"Carter, addressing the killer, said at the news conference, "What will those closest to you think of when they find out that you brutally murdered two little girls, two children? Only a coward would do such a thing."

 

[margarita25]

If BG was hunting, imo he might not have anticipated that his victim(s) was going to cross the bridge.

How far again is it exactly from where they were dropped off to the bridge? Tia,

 

[peel]

the way "guys" was said seemed to connote some familiarity with the girls...as a teacher or preacher or cop would say to his students, parishoners, etc.....a mad killer would just scream "get down the hill!".....

I will not be surprised if this unsub creep was KNOWN to the girls....

 

[soylattesandsleuthing]

I wanted to bring this over from previous thread (I expanded on post ) because I'm curious as to what others may think:

Which scenario, if any of these, is more likely?

The girls were forced at gunpoint down the hill and then ran at some point. They were the ones who knew where to cross the creek. Then he caught up with at least one of them..Abby? Abby was caught and Libby chose to stay and defend her friend (or visa versa). This would show that he lost control of the situation at some point and that there was an intense struggle between BG and at least one of the girls.

Or...
He knew the area well enough to know where to cross the creek and led the girls to the area where they were found. He had the spot and escape route all planned out. Maybe he even placed a duffel bag there ahead of time with "tools" and change of clothes. Early on I believe there was some talk of a "duffel bag".

Or..
Did they double back across the bridge and not cross the creek at all? If these murders weren't meticulously planned then maybe it is a possibility?

Does it even matter?

IMO, I think a scenario with a mixture of 1 and 2 seems most likely. I think they followed his direction to the spot where the murders occurred, but I also think at some point he lost control. I think they fought back, and I don’t believe he expected them to and that made him angry. There has been speculation that there was overkill with at least one of the victims, and if that’s true, him losing control of the situation might have fueled his rage. It’s truly a disgusting thought.
I think everything was premeditated, but I don’t think he expected two little girls to put up a fight. I think he was caught off guard, and even made to feel weak and less than, which likely triggered him even more.

Totally my opinion.

 

[OldLadyBlues]

• 
  It is an interesting post by @LucyRocket from the previous thread. I, too, have a feeling of something disorganized.
  
  
  
  To add to this impression, there is retirement of the Carrol County prosecutor Robert Ives who then comes back and is sworn in today.
  
  How is it to be understood? Someone dropped the ball and he retired in protest but is coming back because he knows the case well?
  
  Or, he dropped the ball?
  
  Or something else?
  
  Or just because they are all local, they were afraid to even think a certain way?

Read to the end of the article and take it for what it's worth.

Delphi prosecutor leaving office with 2 high-profile cases unsolved | Indiana | Journal Gazette

 

[mtnlites]

Regarding phrases in Kentucky: y'all. If there are a few y'alls it becomes "all of y'all".

Yeah, our joke here used to be that if it's 2 people then it's "y'all", if it's more than 2 then it's "all y'all", and if they say "y'uns" then we know they're from Tennessee. (Not really. We just like to differentiate ourselves from Ohio and TN when possible.)

Kentuckian for almost 40 years and I live smack dab in the middle of it. I hear and use "you guys" or "guys" on a daily basis to encompass both genders, though.

 

[Kitsey]

Re: serial killers who weren’t smart at all, but got away with their crimes for a long time - Gary Ridgeway comes to mind.

Of course, this was pre-DNA, and lack of regard for his victims was a key factor. But this guy was no genius, to put it mildly, and got away with dozens of crimes for years and years.

 

[mtnlites]

the way "guys" was said seemed to connote some familiarity with the girls...as a teacher or preacher or cop would say to his students, parishoners, etc.....a mad killer would just scream "get down the hill!".....

I will not be surprised if this unsub creep was KNOWN to the girls....

Or someone who wanted the girls to think he had familiarity with them. It's a casual form of address and sounds friendlier than "you young ladies" or even "you girls". If we play "7 degrees of BG" with them, then chances are there is some sort of connection, whether it's relevant or tenuous at best. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they knew him or that he targeted them.

 

[margarita25]

For those of you who think this is his first murderS, honestly I am very surprised by how many have said this and I’m wondering what leads you to that opinion. I was also wondering for reference if anyone can name a child killer who’s first kill was a dual homicide? Tia. This must surely exist as we see mass shootings for example which are a “first kill”, but specifically for discussion purposes as related to child killers and likely pedophiles I do wonder about a dual homicide as a first crime. Anything is possible but imo I would lean towards this not being his first murder.

Also, how you feel about his victim count, etc could also depend upon how old you think the suspect is. If he is closer to 20, well then chances are likely his body count is less than if he is 40. Big difference between 20 and 40 imo as far as how this all goes down.

 

[Kitsey]

For those of you who think this is his first murderS, honestly I am very surprised by how many have said this and I’m wondering what leafs you to that opinion. I was also wondering for reference if anyone can name a child killer who’s first kill was a dual homicide? Tia. This must surely exist as we see mass shootings for example which are a “first kill”, but specifically for discussion purposes as related to child killers and likely pedophiles I do wonder about this.

Charlie Keever and Jonathan Sellers

ETA killer’s name is Scott Erskine. I hate typing his name along with the names of his innocent victims