Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #98

[MistyWaters]

First time posting...
I think perhaps BG grabbed the phone from Libby and put it in his own pocket not realizing it was recording. At the conclusion of the assault he either tried to throw it in Deer Creek to destroy it or smash the phone. Not realizing what could be retrieved from the phone.
As far as what he was doing on the bridge that day--I hope this isn't too graphic. However if the white cord seen at the top of his jacket was intended for his own suicide. What a way for a depressed, angry (MOO) person to end it all by hanging from a trestle. The girls unknowingly interrupted his plan and anger was turned on them.
My speculation doesn't help solve the crime but explains to me what may have transpired.
MOO

Just a couple points to consider, if you’ve recent began following the case -
- the photo and short video we see it is somewhat deceptive because it appears Libby was standing only a few feet in front of the murderer. In reality, she was a long way away and the video’s been cropped, zoomed and enhanced, which is the reason it’s quite grainy and out of focus.
- while the murderers voice seems louder than the background noises, we don’t know if digital forensics magnified the voice so it could be heard but it’s highly likely it’s not a true “raw” video as LE have never said so.
- early on LE hailed Libby as a “hero”. If the murderer took possession of the cellphone after the video, I think LE would’ve known by the recorded conversation such as “give that to me!” What else was recorded, LE have not made it available to the public other that the recent word that sounds like “guy”.

“Days after the girls were killed, Libby was being hailed as a hero for having the presence of mind to capture footage of a man approaching on the Monon High Bridge and then keeping app open at least long enough to record the suspect’s voice, saying, “Down the hill.”
Delphi murders: Is Abby and Libby’s killer one of Delphi’s own? ISP says, yes


“This is the face of the suspect that goes with body of the video captured on Liberty German's cell phone minutes before she and Abigail Williams were murdered...”
New 'Face' of the Delphi Murder Suspect

 

[margarita25]

Sheriff speaks out about side-by-side comparisons of Delphi murder suspect sketch
May 1, 2019
-video at link

“Sheriff Leazenby said it takes more than just looking like the man in the new sketch to mean that the person actually did the crime. He said the prosecutor needs facts that he can take into the courtroom to prove that the man in the sketch killed the two young girls.

Posting these side-by-side comparisons could also lead to greater problems for those who are creating and sharing them.

"One thing they need to consider is that it could end up in a slander situation where there could be some legal issues involved as well," said Sheriff Leazenby.”

Snip

“The Carroll County Sheriff's Office said anyone who continues to post these comparisons on its Facebook page will have the post removed and they will be blocked from the page.”

 

[sunsetbeach]

I ran across this video today and I don’t recall seeing it before. Maybe I did and just forgot.

This video is from the early days. The man was working near the bridge that day. I wonder what the man (with the Shofar) saw and reported?

WTHR video. @ 2:42 mark

 

[margarita25]

“The message from investigators has been the same since day one: "Put it through the email system or call it in and provide our investigators with that information and I assure you it will be followed into," he said.“

Snip

“Anyone who does have facts about the double homicide should send them to abbyandlibbytip@cacoshrf.com, or you can call 844-459-5786.“

Sheriff speaks out about side-by-side comparisons of Delphi murder suspect sketch

 

[MistyWaters]

Was the first sketch guy actually on the trails that day? I still haven’t figured that out.

We may never know the answer but I’m thinking not as the only reference placed this person near the trail. I’ve wondered if it was a person seen walking on the highway near Delphi because early on there were questions pertaining to a possible hitchhiker and something about a backpack iirc.

I’m also curious, were the witnesses involved longtime local people who would’ve recognized most of the people they saw around and about that day - for example, their tips would identify at least some people by name who were sighted - as opposed to others from out of town just passing through who, at best, could only offer a general description of anybody they encountered.

 

[Angelcat13]

Here is something that is bothering me. I have been focusing on this guy's alibi because I believe it's of the utmost importance. They had a sketch of the real BG two years ago. It's my opinion that someone gave him an alibi then... even though they strongly suspected he was involved (hence LE going with the sketch they released in 2017). If the alibi has been lying all this time, what gives him or her any motivation to come forward now? Its early. I'm only on my second cup of coffee. Not sure if this makes sense.

Alibis, in my opinion, can often be hard to confirm or disprove and in the beginning of this case when they had soooooo many tips being called in LE may have looked at some alibis more closely than others depending on WHO the person was, how much they resembled the sketch, where the tip came from, etc.

Then when LE goes back to re-check some of the alibis it can often be more difficult if the person doesn't have a concrete alibi - visibly at work, etc. Peoples memories can fade or be influenced by other things. In the Christopher Porco case I mentioned in a previous post, Christopher claimed he couldn't have attacked his parents because he was away at school. Initially his alibi seemed to hold up. But on closer look and after further questioning of people that would have likely seen Christopher on campus, none of them could actually remember seeing him during the time in question. Some of them initially BELIEVED they saw him because that's would was typical for him. But when they really tried to pin it down, they couldn't. And when LE was able to get images from traffic surveillance cameras they were actually able to see his vehicle at points as he made his way from campus to his home.

So, as for the Delphi killer's alibi, it could be something similar. Someone may have initially given an alibi for the killer, not intentionally being deceptive, but because it would have been normal for that person to have been in a certain place during that time and the person being questioned really didn't believe that person could be responsible for something like that.

As the list of suspects is narrowed, LE has more opportunity to go back and REALLY look at some alibis they may have originally accepted.

 

[dotr]

First time posting...
I think perhaps BG grabbed the phone from Libby and put it in his own pocket not realizing it was recording. At the conclusion of the assault he either tried to throw it in Deer Creek to destroy it or smash the phone. Not realizing what could be retrieved from the phone.
As far as what he was doing on the bridge that day--I hope this isn't too graphic. However if the white cord seen at the top of his jacket was intended for his own suicide. What a way for a depressed, angry (MOO) person to end it all by hanging from a trestle. The girls unknowingly interrupted his plan and anger was turned on them.
My speculation doesn't help solve the crime but explains to me what may have transpired.
MOO

Thanks for posting!
Have to admit the suicide angle was also in the back of my head, glad you mentioned it.
Although in this case it is probably an unlikely scenario, but the concept of a suicidal person's whose rage at others becomes directed inwards, comes to mind...
Maybe this perp was content to just take it out on others and spare his precious miserable self.
complete speculation, imo.

 

[Charlot123]

Not to mention kelsi and Libby really resembled each other.

This was my original thought as well. But there is a chance we shall never understand. There might be such an odd mixture of controlling, obsessive, thinking, and pure delusions, even psychosis...who knows? Books and books have been written about these guys, without much help

 

[alwayssleuth]

Thanks for posting!
Have to admit the suicide angle was also in the back of my head, glad you mentioned it.
Although in this case it is probably an unlikely scenario, but the concept of a suicidal person's whose rage at others becomes directed inwards, comes to mind...
Maybe this perp was content to just take it out on others and spare his precious miserable self.
complete speculation, imo.

Speculation on my part. I have no way to understand the motive or accept whatever rationale BG will put forth to explain murdering these girls. I don't believe (MOO) BG planned to kill Libby and Abby that day. BG's out of control thoughts lead to this impulsive, self-centered act. I think he compartmentalized it and went on with his day to day life.
I think the app Libby opened will eventually help bring this person to justice. For my thinking its reasonable he took the phone from her. Especially if she was not wearing clothing with pockets.

 

[Skigh]

We were asked this question long ago, in the context of a different murder case. What it it happened to us? My answer was, I would not abandon the person. (i.e. hire a good lawyer, try to see that the conditions of the stay are the best), but I would not cover the murder, either.

The context of the situation is, the LEs were after a different person before, so no one can blame the relatives.

However, the question is, did a relative help to cover the murder immediately afterwards? If yes, he/she is guilty. But I honestly think they did not know.

What if the perpetrator told them early on? Complicated, but to me, in this situation, their silence can not be explained.

If, however, the relatives were merely guessing, but at the same time, the LE was after a totally different person, then they probably persuaded themselves that the perpetrator was that other person. Remember the old sketch, and the person LEs initially suspected? It all made sense.

So if the family only found out now, and are trying to organize the best outcome and a fair trial for their beloved one, I understand. It is not that everyone comes across this situation, daily. There are no instructions on what to do in these cases. And maybe they are shocked, but going by the book, hiring a lawyer, and going by atty's advice. What happens in their minds? I can only imagine.

But too early to blame them, given what we were seeing and hearing for two years.

Sympathise, probably not, but "compassion" is the emotion that is not out of place here.

A lovely post.
I can not begin to imagine the pure agony a parent most go through knowing their beloved child could
be capable of commiting murder.

 

[cluciano63]

In a high-tech world, composite sketches still helping police put a face on crime

Interesting article on using sketches of suspects.

Kind of confirms what I believe...police use them when they have no other way to identify a person. I don’t believe they would issue a sketch if they knew who their suspect was. Too many problems with sketches, historically, including danger to innocent “lookalikes” etc...jmo

 

[Charlot123]

If someone has given a false alibi, I presume they will also be convicted?
I suppose if someone did give a false alibi they thought they were safe when the LE were looking for original BG.
Big question is whether they will now come forward and tell the truth?

If they knew they were covering a murderer.

Likely, they did not.

A totally hypothetical situation.

Imagine someone saying, "look, I was with (another girl) in Delphi and I don't want my live-in GF to know because she will be mad. There was a murder there and they will be checking alibis, someone saw me in Delphi, and of course that girl I visited won't provide mine, 'cause she's married. Can you please, help me, say that we played pool together?"

Chances are, much as the person lied, it was not to cover a murderer.

Just an example. 90% of times alibis are provided it good faith, or mistakenly believing this is what they saw.

 

[castilloisno1]

A lovely post.
I can not begin to imagine the pure agony a parent most go through knowing their beloved child could
be capable of commiting murder.

Then again, I see too many times, on tv and news reports of someone killing their friend,family member,girlfriend and Mom is on tv denying loudly that their child had anything to do with it. The Chris Watts case comes to mind....his mother will never admit that her little boy did anything wrong. It would take a lot of courage and REAL love to turn someone in that has done something so heinous. Yet, it is the right thing to do.

 

[enelram]

In a high-tech world, composite sketches still helping police put a face on crime

Interesting article on using sketches of suspects.

Kind of confirms what I believe...police use them when they have no other way to identify a person. I don’t believe they would issue a sketch if they knew who their suspect was. Too many problems with sketches, historically, including danger to innocent “lookalikes” etc...jmo

good points and to add to that-maybe the REAL PLAN for the pc
was to insult or belittle perp into getting in touch with them.
BTK was so upset at LE not naming him (as BTK) that he was
out to prove what he had done and sent them a disc which
they tracked back to his church where he was an official and kept
many of his mementos from the crimes.
Think of all the put downs Supt. threw at the perp that day.
"Coward, little girls, control, etc.

 

[acutename]

I think it was a rookie mistake, not uncommon among first time killers.

He either saw the phone and forgot about it, or it never occurred to him to look for one in the first place.

I think it’s likely that he had no idea that Libby had recorded him.

It’s always nice when a victim is able to bring their killer to justice.

It may not be the reason he is caught, but it very well might aid in his conviction when he is.

has anyone said whether the phone was ringing or was it going to voice mail? I think either, L turned the volume off to conceal it because, after all we know she took the course on police/detective work and she was making and hiding a record OR during whatever ever bad physical things occurred, the phone fell some where near the scene but maybe not in complete plain view and BG just left. He may have also decided to have nothing to do with it so as not to complicate his tasks further (does he break it? dispose of it somewhere else? is it still tracking?).

 

[gitana1]

This is probably a very, very stupid question, and one that may have been addressed previously, but how do LE know with certainty that BG is THE suspect? Is it because he was the only other person known to be on the bridge with them? Or are we to assume that there is more unreleased video footage of that specific individual on the phone (and potentially footage of that person actually committing the crime, as horrible a thought that is)?

Again, stupid question probably

Libby was taking surreptitious photos of the guy as she discussed a creepy guy following them. I'm sure there's much more on the tape about the guy but some must coincide with the photos and one second video we see.

I suspect that on the video it becomes apparent that the guy on the bridge gets very close but I suspect at a certain point there's only really audio (so what we've seen is as clear as it gets), as Libby realizes they're in danger and shoves the phone in her pocket to be able maybe to defend herself and her friend or secretly record the encounter.

But due to the timing of the video/audio and how quickly things likely escalated in the recording, from the time Libby captured an image of the guy to web things went bad, I'm assuming there couldn't be anyone else involved.

The audio likely shows a smooth transition from creepy guy following to monster attacking. But they're not going to release that to the public because it is disturbing, upsetting for the victims' loved ones to have out, they want to preserve the dignity of the little girls and also because it contains evidence that enables LE to wade through fact and fiction when it comes to tips, incriminating statements and possible confessions.

 

[enelram]

Then again, I see too many times, on tv and news reports of someone killing their friend,family member,girlfriend and Mom is on tv denying loudly that their child had anything to do with it. The Chris Watts case comes to mind....his mother will never admit that her little boy did anything wrong. It would take a lot of courage and REAL love to turn someone in that has done something so heinous. Yet, it is the right thing to do.

same w/ accused murderer Patrick Frazee. His mother, sister and brother are all claiming his innocence. But remember that
many times the lying relative was not a model citizen themself even if they looked ok to people in community. Apples don't
fall far from the tree.

 

[peel]

maybe the extra word and the tiny one extra step was to tease the unsub......he has to be thinking..."what else do they got".....now we need to know what the cops think the unsubs next move would be.......grow a beard....leave the area....suicide....because clearly the whole point of the PC was not to the public....it was to the perp and those close to him that might know.

 

[gitana1]

View attachment 182556

I'm sorry; I don't know how to carry a quote over from a previous thread. I just snipped and pasted the above.

It was me who wrote that LE said the re-enactments were not correct. That was back in Thread #87. Here was the post:

I have seen some of Gray's videos and have found them to be very helpful in visualizing the way the crime may have unfolded.

However, Indiana State Police Sgt. Jerry Holeman has made an interesting comment about the reenactment videos. I don't know if he is referring to the videos made by Gray or by Anthony Greeno or by someone else (or by all of them).

Here's what Sargent Holeman said: “The videos help us know that people don’t know the true details, because the facts haven’t been released,” Holeman says. “People watch the news and think they are picking up on things, but it’s false. Nothing out there is accurate, which only leads to more false tips.”

In addressing concerns that police have held back too many details on such a high-profile case, Holeman said that is standard protocol for ongoing investigations. He said, "We do that so when we get key evidence, only the killer or killers know the cause of death. We don’t release it to the media because then everyone and their brother would know, and it’s common to get false confessions from mentally disturbed people. So we’re trying to keep the details close to our vests.”

Why Police Have Not Released Details on the Murders of Libby German and Abby Williams from Delphi, Indiana

Choochoobella, Feb 20, 2019Report
#1153

Thank you for this post. It should be posted at the beginning of each thread, frankly. It is especially important for us to understand that the manner in which they're releasing or not releasing info is indeed, standard protocol and for a very good reason.

 

[acutename]

Yes, and it may speak to the psychology of BG too. For example, my step-dad is a very socially challenged, left brained, engineer minded individual. My mom finally convinced him to get a cell phone, but he never uses it. While cell phones are a very big part of daily lives for many of us, perhaps it isn’t something on the mind of BG. Especially if he’s consumed mentally and physically by his (sick) task at hand.

But like you said, a rookie mistake seems perfectly possible as well.

I cannot decide if I think BG mentally practiced whatever he was going to do and was not about to "deviate from his plan," or if he was more like in a fugue state doing this- not so much reacting or absorbing anything, just self-focused acting out. posters on here keep talking about killers reliving their acts, but aren't there some people who barely remember what they did? ..like a hawk swallowing a mouse (sorry for this analogy) but I am wondering if BG has detailed memories.