Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #99

[GoBuckeyes]

I'm sorry, I'm trying to reply so quickly, I'm afraid I did not answer your question fully.

Autosomal DNA is the most common DNA testing, and it is the one used to build a DNA family tree. That kind of tree is separate and distinct from a family tree a person might claim as their ancestors or what is written in a book, a family Bible or baptismal records/birth records.

Y-DNA can be used to help identify a male line of ancestry. Mitochondrial or mtDNA is helpful to confirm a female line of ancestry. Both are not as specific as autosomal DNA, but I do know of several instances where it revealed the truth surrounding a person's birth.

Familial DNA testing as now used by LE is based on autosomal DNA testing. Once the results are ready, they are uploaded to a database to find matches, usually they are at the 4th or 5th cousin level. Then the real work begins because you don't automatically have a name or surname. You have to start building DNA trees using genealogical detective work and try to find the point where those DNA trees come together to one family and one person.

JMO.

Recently, my sister submitted her DNA to an ancestory site. She is adopted and was curious what it might reveal. She found several second cousins. I was really surprised. We know she is the only child of her bio Dad. She does have some half bio sibs on her maternal side. But we were both very surprised at the level of detail that resulted. The 2nd cousins were dispersed across several states. I didn't realize that the DNA companies had become so popular so quickly.

 

[x_files]

IMO the only way they could exclude OBG is if the main witness (eyes: not blue) recanted their story.

Would love to know who gave the description of BG that became the first official for the public to see Sketch #1? from an eye witness or from the video only? and if from an eye witness what if it came from the actual BG killer himself gave false info to throw everyone off?

 

[MistyWaters]

I noticed the focus has shifted re the car. At the PC they said they wanted the driver. They said, If you know the identity of the driver or if you parked at the welfare office we want to talk to you. Now they are asking if you can identify the car itself. What does that tell us? Before it seemed like they wanted someone to call and say, "I saw my brother's car there." Now it's enough if someone says, "I saw a white Chevy parked there". Is that because they have a POI who they know drove a white Chevy that day? Doesn't seem like enough evidence to me. If you saw your brother's car, they would ask, "How do you know it was his?", and we all have things that identify a specific car, his rear passenger side had a scrape, or he has a flag sticker over the Chevy emblem, etc. But if you don't know the owner it would have to have something unique, like it had one gray fender or plastic over the rear passenger window or gold rims. Even at that, linking someone to a double murder, they need to know whose car IMO.
It does sound like they must be watching for someone to clean out or even dump a car.

Around the 2nd anniversary, LE began asking for “good” tips. I noticed nothing has really changed since then other than the newly released sketch, extra few seconds of audio and the brief video clip. If people connected locally know of somebody they believe is worth reporting, LE have never limited it by indicating they’re only interested in a sighting of the vehicle in the parking lot.

******
Police request that tips include the following information:

• Suspect's name
• Date of birth or approximate age
• Physical description including height, weight, hair color, eye color
• Address or location including city
• Vehicle information including year, make, model, color
• Specific reason for the tip. Why could they be the suspect?
• Motivation for the crime
• Connection to Delphi, IN

Police say you don't need to have all of those pieces to send a tip, but do ask you include as many details as you can.
State police receive thousands of tips since new Delphi evidence release

 

[ocgrad]

MOO if that were the case I think the forensics activity at the shed would have been extreme. There was some forensic activity at a family's barn across the road.

We heard from RL that they brought significant lights and equipment and searched his land. They used his place as a base of operations and we don't know what they did in his sheds and barns since it was closed off. It was a couple of weeks later when they did a thorough search of all his buildings. It does seem if they looked in those buildings in the 2 days they searched the scene they would have found evidence of a crime but they did go back and took boxes of evidence. His family thanked ISP for how organized they left everything, they moved every bale of hay and restacked it all. It sounded like they went through the barns and sheds thoroughly.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

I am quite horrified about the states that allow DNA only as acceptable for an arrest warrant or those that believe that DNA only is the answer to any case.

A couple of weekends ago I was up at a trail. I had a full day ahead of me and knowing it was going to be warm and humid I was well hydrated. I also continued to hydrate that day which lead me to have to take regular pit stops. I was on a public trail with others around me so I had to go "down the hill", out of sight essentially, to relieve myself.

Now imagine if someone had killed someone on top of the place I had previously urinated. My DNA would probably be all over the victim and the crime scene. My truck would be noted at the trailhead. My sketch would be out there as someone who was seen in close proximity to the crime scene.

In many circles the above is 1+1+1=arrest. My arrest would be made public via MSM and those that believe that DNA is the bastion of all evidence would crucify me in the court of public opinion. I would have to rely on a good lawyer to explain to the court why my DNA was present and poke holes and then potentially leave it to a jury to find out if there's any doubt to my innocence. I would lose my job, my family, my friends. Scary stuff.

My point is, we should always look at the totality of the evidence and not hang our hat on one thing. Finding DNA of someone on a public trail only means that this person was at that trail at some point. Finding semen vs. urine means different things (yet there are some thrillseekers that public places rock their boat). Blood can simply mean someone cut themselves. People do stuff that leaves DNA and do not have to kill someone to be placed at a location.

Our justice system is so great because it is based on a presumption of innocence. The moment that changes to anything different would be a scary world.

Just MOO.

Completely agree. I was late replying to this topic around page 7 or so at the beginning of this thread. DNA ONLY arrests are being challenged, and the cases have worked their way up to the state supreme court in a couple states at least.

 

[Yvettea]

I'm sorry, no disrespect but say what? Their meddling?

Actually I was just brainstorming. We’ve talked about a S/A until I’m blue in the face and we don’t even know that’s what happened. We’ve never heard LE has DNA which you tend to expect with S/A. It’s also been suggested that the perp didn’t have time for S/A. But two girls are dead for some reason. I’ve suggested a couple of other reasons.

 

[ocgrad]

Yes, I am very familiar with the Lazarus program and phasing at Gedmatch. They are helpful tools for any genealogist to have.

I'm sure the forensic genealogists working the EDJD case have used all available programs to further the narrowing of the DNA matches. I should have said it is unknown at this time if they have made progress in identifying EDJD's actual mother. I'm sure they do have the maternal side located, but they may be currently working the matches to finalize the mother's exact identity (just as is happening on the paternal side). I don't know. Since January, no more information has been forthcoming.

It seemed like there may have been a child born out of wedlock and they were being very delicate at getting that uncovered so as not to hurt the family relationships. The generation in her family they needed to explore was all older folks.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

ok, you win.

But please remember that there are people here who you don't know who might be in the throes of dealing with a loved one living with Alzheimer's, who maybe aren't ready to use it "as humour." Now or ever.

You're both correct. My grandmother has it. It's horrific. So is murder. Some people use humor to cope.

 

[Deleted member 278]

I hope this means they have video from businesses of him driving by.

All they would have to do then is put the make, model, and color into the database and pull up owners of cars like that. I don't think there is video.

 

[ocgrad]

JMO.

I agree. No perp DNA in the Closs case. But was the investigator talking about perp DNA? He only said there was DNA at every crime scene. Yes, there is DNA at every crime scene because the victim's DNA is also there. That was my point.

The investigator's answer was nebulous and told us nothing.

Semantics are important in understanding exactly what has been said. Lawyers are masters of this type of communication; speaking a lot of words but saying nothing. How many times have we heard, "my client looks forward to having his day in court" or "my client is anxious for the facts of this case to be heard" as if his client is innocent. It's all bluff and bluster.

Basically, the investigator never answered the reporter's inferred question, asking if there was perp DNA at the crime scene.

They said they reached out to the investigators in the April Tinsley case and Paul Holes who was the dogged investigator in the GSK tweeted about the A&L case and said IN reached out to him. It could all be a ruse to keep the killer thinking they have his DNA. But I sort of think using familial DNA is switching gears.

 

[tresir2012]

Did they search the abandoned building when the girls were missing?! I would think to check there in case they went exploring and got hurt in the building or abducted and taken there. If they did not explore/investigate this building that day on the 13th that would have been a real oversight!

I have to agree. If you notice on the 14 Feb 2017 helicopter video, the building does not seem to be a focus of any searches, which is why I was questioning this. I have never even heard it mentioned before this latest PC and, if it wasn't searched, am therefore wondering when it was actually demolished.

 

[x_files]

I've been debating for over 24 hours whether or not to put this out there, because y'all will think I'm completely crazy. I get that, but please don't laugh too hard at my expense...

Okay, I know the FBI and other agencies, organizations, and companies are FANTASTIC at cleaning up audio and video. That's without dispute. Some amateurs do an amazing job also. Having said that, a couple days ago, I finally got up the nerve to look at the pics and sketches again. Since the most recent presser, in spite of being locked and loaded, several highly active and protective dogs in the house, and security cams/system, I'd been unable to sleep at night anytime I viewed the images. Anyway, when I finally pulled up an image, it was the first image released, the grainy one. I could swear that I can make out 2 people, with the outline of the second person showing at various points around the edge of BG. (No, I've not been smoking anything.) Can anyone else see even the slightest hint of what I'm seeing? Again, please don't laugh too, too hard. TIA

not laughing at all, can you link to the exact photo you are looking at? thanks!

 

[x_files]

I have to agree. If you notice on the 14 Feb 2017 helicopter video, the building does not seem to be a focus of any searches, which is why I was questioning this. I have never even heard it mentioned before this latest PC and, if it wasn't searched, am therefore wondering when it was actually demolished.

That worries me. I would search the bridge and would want search places teens may go to explore and could have got trapped, wounded in.

 

[rainwaterstill]

Every morning for over two years the first thing I do is check in here in the hopes I will see "ARREST" at the tope of this thread. It's the first thing. I don't even have my coffee before I come here.

I didn't expect anything to happen in the 2 weeks. I think we were all so hopeful that it was a sign but when you're desperate you read thing into words that really isn't there.

I do think they're close. I think justice is coming but it's going to take a while.

This needs to be done RIGHT. No jumping ahead and being sloppy.

But I must admit, I'm tired of waiting. I can't imagine how the family feels.

Maybe "Today Will Be The Day". I'm hopeful.

MOO

Exactly. I would like to see an absolutely slam dunk case, with NO room for a defense attorney to create reasonable doubt in a jury's mind or have a guilty verdict overturned on technicalities. If it takes another 6 months or a year to put together that slam dunk, so be it. No technicals for hanging on the rim, so to speak. I also believe LE is very very close, and they are lacking just one small bit of info, whatever it is, to move in for the arrest (s). MOO, MOO, and only MOO.

 

[pepper 34]

This is an astute observation that after all these pages of what I thought we figured out, that it’s the “driver” they’re looking for, technically it’s the driver AND the car...in other words, it doesn’t sound like they necessarily know as much about this car than we thought they did?

Ow my head...

—-

ETA: Not holding my breath on that.

My guess on the bolded line above:

I think they know exactly what car they're looking for (make, model, color, and registration information, and, therefore, who owned it at the time of the murders.) But, at this time, over 2 years later, I think they don't know where it is. It could have been hidden, destroyed, sold, traded, donated... who knows and who knows why they can't find it because wherever the car is, there should be a record of where it went... except if it was hidden or destroyed, of course.

Maybe LE is angry because they had the car right where they wanted it but didn't understand it's significance when it was "right there for the taking." And now, they've lost the opportunity to examine it. Or... the communication from the LE officer during this particular interview is just a bit of purposeful "word gaming" in an attempt to illicit a hoped for result or response from BG. A trap set for BG, iow.
All just speculation and jmo.

 

[tresir2012]

If anyone can see even the tiniest possibility of what I'm seeing, I'd be glad to share where I think I see the outline of the 2nd person.

I daren't even look at it now you've said this. :-o

 

[Mind your biscuits]

I hope this means they have video from businesses of him driving by.

The routes out of the area look quite rural though. I hope you are correct, it would definitely help. I don't think I've seen any footage or pictures of Delphi itself, is it just one main street?

 

[susiQ]

My guess on the bolded line above:

I think they know exactly what car they're looking for (make, model, color, and registration information, and, therefore, who owned it at the time of the murders.) But, at this time, over 2 years later, I think they don't know where it is. It could have been hidden, destroyed, sold, traded, donated... who knows and who knows why they can't find it because wherever the car is, there should be a record of where it went... except if it was hidden or destroyed, of course.

Maybe LE is angry because they had the car right where they wanted it but didn't understand it's significance when it was "right there for the taking." And now, they've lost the opportunity to examine it. Or... the communication from the LE officer during this particular interview is just a bit of purposeful "word gaming" in an attempt to illicit a hoped for result or response from BG. A trap set for BG, iow.
All just speculation and jmo.

I must be missing something. If they know make, model and VIN and who owned the car at the time, why don't they just ask them where it is or what they did with it and go from there?

 

[sunshineray]

OK, I'll reword it: The only way the old face was excluded was if the witness (eyes: not blue) recanted their description. MOO

Or they actually finally found sketch #1 guy and cleared him.

 

[mtnlites]

I see your point. There is really a big difference between USA and my country- small country, old population; everything is different.

Also keep in mind that we really can't throw all towns in the US under one umbrella. Each county has their own unique culture and even within those counties you'll find subtle differences within the towns. There are big differences between New York City and New Orleans, for instance, but there are also differences between Delphi, Indiana and Lafayette. There are nearly 19,000 towns in the USA in more than 3,000 counties. There are very few generalities that one can make to lump them all together. The US is a very big place with differences in geography, history, religious denominations, dialect, and climate.