IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #17

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
I'm having a hard time with those statistics. I volunteer in women's prisons, in groups of about 15 at a time where they discuss their childhoods/families/backgrounds, and I can truthfully say I've only met 1 woman who came from what could be considered a mainstream, healthy nurturing background. All of them talk about mothers with strings of men coming through who abused them, being abandoned by their parents and raised by feeble great grand parents, growing up in foster care because both parents were incarcerated, etc. It's really hard to believe that coming from an abusive and neglectful background only raises adult's likelihood of being incarcerated by 28%.

It depends on which direction you look at the statistics. It could be that 70% of incarcerated people were abused, but any specific abused person has a 28% greater chance of being incarcerated. Although many inmates have histories of being abused, many people who are not incarcerated do, too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
this is correct. users of snapchat can only view snap stories for up to 24h, but law enforcement can request and view any metadata (what users saw the girls posts that day, and at what time, and what device were they using, etc.)

they should know a list of exactly who viewed her snap story that day and be able to determine if they can't ID anyone (you have to add the person as a friend who is viewing it, so it should be somewhat limited to 50-150ish people)

https://storage.googleapis.com/snap-inc/privacy/lawenforcement.pdf
b. Logs of Previous Snaps, Stories, and ChatsSnapchat retains logs for the last 31 days of Snaps sent andreceived, for 24 hours of posted Stories, and for any unopenedChats or those saved by a sender or recipient. The logs contain8meta-data about the Snaps, Stories, and Chats, but not thecontent.Process required for logs of previous Snaps, Stories, and Chats:This information is available pursuant to a court order under 18U.S.C. § 2703(d) or a federal or state search warrant.

* I'm just replying to your quote because of the Snapchat discussion, but I'm actually replying to everyone discussing Snapchat in relation to this case. 40% of kids under 18 have a Kik Messengers App--

As I mentioned last night, Liberty had a link to her Kik account attached to her SM. Kik App messaging is totally anonymous and does "not have access to content or "historical user data" such as photographs, videos, and the text of conversations, and that photographs and videos are automatically deleted shortly after they are sent. A limited amount of data from a particular account (identified by exact username), including first and last name, birthdate, e-mail address, link to a current profile picture, device-related information, and user location information such as the most recently used IP address, can be preserved for a period of 90 days pending receipt of a valid order from law enforcement.[4]" (!!!)

Also, re: Kik App: "A main attraction of Kik that differentiates it from other messaging apps is its anonymity. To register for the Kik service, a user must enter a first and last name, e-mail address, and birth date (which, as of February 2016, must show that the user is at least 13 years old[20]), and select a username.[4] Users' names and birth dates are not verified, allowing users to misrepresent their identity and/or age if they so choose.[21] The Kik registration process does not request or require the entry of a phone number (although the user has the option to enter one[20]), unlike some other messaging services that require a user to provide a functioning mobile phone number.[3]"

And: " Kik's anonymity has been controversial because the lack of detection and tracking has attracted some illicit users, including online predators (see Controversies).[3] It has also been suggested that the lack of a phone number requirement, coupled with the ability to use Kik on a variety of mobile devices other than a smartphone, has attracted child and young teen users because they are less likely to have smartphones.[22] However, Kik's anonymity has also been cited as a protective safety measure for good faith users, in that "users have screennames; the app doesn’t share phone numbers or email addresses."[23]"

And re: Kik as used by predators: "Child exploitation is prominent on Kik Messenger, causing law enforcement and the media to frequently express concerns about the app.[37][38][39][40][41] In 2014, a pedophile told The Trentonian newspaper: "I could go on it now and probably within 20 minutes have videos, pictures, everything else in between off the app because I know they're both still active. That's where all the child *advertiser censored* is coming off of."[42] Similarly, in 2015 another pedophile stated: "The first thing that I thought was, 'Wow! I can be whoever I want to be. I can get anybody I want. I can achieve my sexual glorification [sic] through this app.'"[43] Automated spam bots have also been used to distribute explicit images and text over Kik Messenger.[44][45] A state law enforcement official interviewed by The New York Times in February 2016 identified Kik as "the problem app of the moment".[8]


"Prior to 2015, Kik Interactive addressed this issue by informing parents and police about their options to combat child exploitation. In March 2015, the company adopted a more aggressive strategy by utilizing Microsoft's PhotoDNA cloud service to automatically detect, delete, and report the distribution of child exploitation images on its app.[46] (Some experts have noted that because PhotoDNA operates by comparing images against an existing database of exploitative images, it does not effectively prevent "realtime" online child abuse and may not detect material not yet added to its comparison database.[47]) Kik Interactive also began collaborating internationally with law enforcement by joining the Virtual Global Taskforce, a partnership between businesses, child protection agencies, and international police services that combats online child exploitation and abuse.[3][46] The company also sponsors an annual conference on crimes against children.[8]"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kik_Messenger

I'm just curious as to why we're not discussing how Kik could have been a SM component to what happened with the girls?

*Also, IMO, just because Liberty Snapchatted a picture of Abby does not mean she was still using the Snapchat app whenever she recordered BG. She literally could have been just recording him on her phone using the phone's video function.

Why aren't we discussing Kik?!
 
Also, you can be out of state, but still be familiar with the area. I was in a ballet company in Lafayette and my mom would drive me there from Illinois 3 times a week. I haven't been back to Lafayette in years, but at the time we all felt very familiar with it.

Basically in the midwest, you do a lot of driving. At least we did as a family. Lafayette one weekend. Chicago the next weekend. We used to even drive to Champaign for church. An hour each way just to get some religion into us lol. We went to Kentucky a lot also.

So technically we were out of state, but knew other regions well.
 
Apologies to other posters because this is a long and ultimately off-topic post but I wanted to respond publicly for anyone else who was interested.

First link -- a lot of studies linking childhood abuse/adverse experiences to adverse health outcomes in adulthood

https://acestoohigh.com/research/

Another study demonstrating that adverse childhood events are closely linked to depression, fetal death, teen pregnancy, smoking, suicidal ideation, etc. http://www.ajpmonline.org/article/S0749-3797(98)00017-8/abstract

More info from the CDC: https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/childmaltreatment/consequences.html



Just a note on those numbers -- those are the ones CPS confirms. There are many kids being abused under the radar who never end up confirmed as abused.



Another note from me -- alcoholism and drug abuse are correlated with things like IPV, burglary, prostitution, etc. So I'd expect to see at least some correlation between abuse survival and crime due to this alone.




Note from me: An increased risk of criminal behavior by 28-30 percent doesn't seem all that high given the links between poor cognitive development, drug use, teen pregnancy, and so on. What I don't see in any of these studies, though, is a link between predatory behavior/murder and child abuse. Because child abuse survivors are, first and foremost, victims. They are often in survival mode, and their brains are working in a different way than other people's. Predatory behavior is on a whole other level. That’s not to say that a child abuse survivor can never commit murder or will never be a predator. Just that it isn’t a cause and effect like so many people seem to think it is.

Information on how the myth began that child abuse turns survivors into abusive or violent predators.

http://www.centrefortherapy.ca/Mythsofabuse

Nothing to do with this case other than possible POIs previous life:

Here's where you get the monster: You take a kid who has been abused (physically punched, kicked, etc.) and then throw in some parents who are using narcotics (Meth and Heroin because in Indiana they go together), who then prey on others to rob fueling their drug habit. Then have them get out of the household/physical abuse (CPS/Jail/Whatever) to a household of say the Foster home scenario where they are sexually molested and voila you've got a violent murderous sexual predator who preys on other on your hands - in some situations. Now, most would say this is far reaching, but I've heard this story many times, just yet to meet the completed monster personally - but I know they exist. I know a woman this happened to, but she's as sweet as apple pie, so it may need to be a male, no way out type scenario, idk.
 
I hope we have good news when I check tomorrow.
I thought this man was local but now I don't know. I think the town is so small that someone would have reported it by now. I think the population is just Under 3000 so after taking females ,children and the elderly away from that figure I think it would be quite easy for locals to rule out locals if that makes sense.
maybe he grew up in the area and knows the trails very well but has been gone that long nobody rocognises him from ageing. He probably used the visit the trails a lot after moving out of delphi but never went into town JMO

It is such a small town. The more I look into it, the more I see many more people may visit there every year than live there.

Two things:

Here is a link to the Delphi Trails Map, where parking is denoted:

http://www.cityofdelphi.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=5&Itemid=135

Here is a link you get lost in:

http://www.carrollcountycomet.com/n...idents_object_to_design_change_for_Inter.html

I don't think this article is relevant in any way to the murders of Abby and Libby, but it lead to me to an interesting feature the Carroll County Comet has online, that might be interesting to some of you. The local paper highlights certain names in its articles, which links the names to any other articles or arrest reports published involving the name. I came upon this article by chance and do not think any of the names listed in this particular article are suspicious in any way. It's interesting, though, how much this little town has going on.
 
I have a theory.

A female that the girls trusted lured them for this .

If there are 2 people involved in this crime, it is possible that one of them is a female.

JMO
 
#1nana, and there lies our dilemma.

We know that the girls entered from the northwest end. They were dropped off there according to the news reports.

We know that they were about midway when Libby snapped those two pics - one of Abby, the other of the bridge.

We know that they were one the southeast end of the bridge when Libby filmed BG - all the foliage and the sun lines up and I do not think that can be discarded.

Which direction did BG come from? That is the 200,000 dollar question. Did he enter the bridge from the north like the girls, but farther behind, catch up and then pounce?

Did he enter from the southeast end, walk past the girls and circle around (causing Libby to be alarmed enough to start filming, just in case)?

The news reports, as I said on an earlier thread, walked the path according to LE - that had the girls exiting or being exited on the northwest end, the same way they came on, then to the right, and "down the hill." Hard to imagine being forced all that way without the danger of being seen.

You went to the area and brought back all those great photos and I was prepared to think that, yes, they had to have been marched across OR tried to escape towards a populated area.

However,there still was no doubt in my mind, because all the lining up of the foliage and the sun, that the girls encountered him at the very southeast end. So, then it makes total sense that they were either accosted there and marched off about ten feet of bridge to the southeast and "down the Hill" OR that they tried to make a run for it towards that house at the end of that road.

BG is heading towards the southeast exit and approaching the girls (theoretically) from the north. So, for me, logically, he either came from the same direction as the girls entered the bridge or he came from the southern end and is circling back in those photos. I can see how it would be logical for him to lay in wait, hidden, to see if they came all the way across or just ventured out a bit and turned around. Once they got that far across, sadly, they were trapped.

But then, oh God, the water, really???? IDK.

I don't quite understand why it seems unlikely to some for BG to have turned around and simply follow the girls back to the North end. There was no need to accost them right on the bridge because the girls had no way to escape anyway. All he needed to do was follow them.

They were close to the southern end when taking the pictures, he comes towards them (either from the South or from the North) and the girls decide to make their way back to the North end. If he came from the South, he simply follows them. What can they do? It's hard to run on this bridge. So they walk, he walks behind them. Similarly, if he came from the North towards them, the girls start their way back to the North end and as soon as they meet up with him he turns around and follows rather than continuing South, which is maybe what the girls had thought would happen. So he just follows them until they all reach the North end of the bridge and then he pulls his weapon.

This is how I think it happened. jmo
 
I'm having a hard time with those statistics. I volunteer in women's prisons, in groups of about 15 at a time where they discuss their childhoods/families/backgrounds, and I can truthfully say I've only met 1 woman who came from what could be considered a mainstream, healthy nurturing background. All of them talk about mothers with strings of men coming through who abused them, being abandoned by their parents and raised by feeble great grand parents, growing up in foster care because both parents were incarcerated, etc. It's really hard to believe that coming from an abusive and neglectful background only raises adult's likelihood of being incarcerated by 28%.

How many women in the general public have you talked to about their background?

You're talking to an imprisoned population, which dramatically increases the likelihood of them having a traumatised past. I can guarantee you that a lot of functional, totally normal looking people out there have also had traumatised childhoods. You just don't know it.
 
I'd like to address the issue of BG perhaps living out of state. It is true that the population size of Delphi, Indiana is close to 3,000 people. Many posts state that if the suspect were from the town of Delphi, someone would have recognized him by now, which I tend to agree with. However, I think there's some middle ground between him living in Delphi and living far, far away.

Here are the facts about nearby population sizes (all from 2013 data) of counties that directly border Carroll County:
White County - bordering Carroll County (CC) on the northwest: 24,966
Clinton County - bordering CC on the south: 32,916
Tippecanoe County - bordering CC to the southwest: 180,174
Cass County - bordering CC to the northeast: 38,463
Howard County - bordering CC on the east: 82,760

If you add the above populations to the number who live in Carroll County (20,086), this totals 379,365. This total does not include the number of Purdue students who reside in Tippecanoe County but have residency in another state or Indiana counties other than the ones listed above. Purdue has a total enrollment of both graduate and undergraduate students of close to 39,000, so there is some significant number that should be considered in addition to the population size of Tippecanoe county, which might drive the grand total of these counties to nearly 400,000. IMO

Additionally, there are all the surrounding counties that lie in an "outer ring" beyond the counties mentioned above. These are still in close proximity to Carroll County. All I'm trying to say is that BG could be overlooked in a pool of 400,000+ nearby residents. Or he lives in any of these counties and someone is hesitating to turn him in. And I do believe he had to be extremely familiar with the Monon High Bridge trail in order to pull off this horrific crime.

I think when they finally have arrested the suspect or suspects that he/they will end up being from Indiana and one of the counties listed above. MOO

I agree. Definitely at least bordering one of those counties for a significant amount of time... maybe gone by now though.

Another thing to remember is... especially Carroll county, but all of them really, have areas that are quite rural. I grew up in this area and rural and we had one neighbor that we could recognize, but of the 5 or 6 houses visible from outside, we probably wouldn't recognize the rest in a lineup of 2.
 
That does look shallow in that area, i have seen that dirt rd area on maps. I do wonder now if that rd is part of private property or is it acccessable to the public. The yellow( crime scene tape) is up in the left corner.

I'm sure lots of trees, along a creek are curved (arced) over... but that shocked me at first.
 
#1nana, and there lies our dilemma.

We know that the girls entered from the northwest end. They were dropped off there according to the news reports.

We know that they were about midway when Libby snapped those two pics - one of Abby, the other of the bridge.

We know that they were one the southeast end of the bridge when Libby filmed BG - all the foliage and the sun lines up and I do not think that can be discarded.

Which direction did BG come from? That is the 200,000 dollar question. Did he enter the bridge from the north like the girls, but farther behind, catch up and then pounce?

Did he enter from the southeast end, walk past the girls and circle around (causing Libby to be alarmed enough to start filming, just in case)?

The news reports, as I said on an earlier thread, walked the path according to LE - that had the girls exiting or being exited on the northwest end, the same way they came on, then to the right, and "down the hill." Hard to imagine being forced all that way without the danger of being seen.

You went to the area and brought back all those great photos and I was prepared to think that, yes, they had to have been marched across OR tried to escape towards a populated area.

However,there still was no doubt in my mind, because all the lining up of the foliage and the sun, that the girls encountered him at the very southeast end. So, then it makes total sense that they were either accosted there and marched off about ten feet of bridge to the southeast and "down the Hill" OR that they tried to make a run for it towards that house at the end of that road.

BG is heading towards the southeast exit and approaching the girls (theoretically) from the north. So, for me, logically, he either came from the same direction as the girls entered the bridge or he came from the southern end and is circling back in those photos. I can see how it would be logical for him to lay in wait, hidden, to see if they came all the way across or just ventured out a bit and turned around. Once they got that far across, sadly, they were trapped.

But then, oh God, the water, really???? IDK.

Thank you for your reply. I know every time I think I have this figured out, I start back at square 1. It does make sense that he would make his move on the SW end. Guess that kills my theory that he snuck in through the back of the cemetery unless he followed the tree line to the NE side of the bridge. Obviously had he come in the SW side from the cemetery he would have had to cross the water and his pants would have been wet in the pic. Unless he came from that private driveway. I just can't imagine trying to corral two "hostages" through water. Aye aye aye.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Nothing to do with this case other than possible POIs previous life:

Here's where you get the monster: You take a kid who has been abused (physically punched, kicked, etc.) and then throw in some parents who are using narcotics (Meth and Heroin because in Indiana they go together), who then prey on others to rob fueling their drug habit. Then have them get out of the household/physical abuse (CPS/Jail/Whatever) to a household of say the Foster home scenario where they are sexually molested and voila you've got a violent murderous sexual predator who preys on other on your hands - in some situations. Now, most would say this is far reaching, but I've heard this story many times, just yet to meet the completed monster personally - but I know they exist. I know a woman this happened to, but she's as sweet as apple pie, so it may need to be a male, no way out type scenario, idk.

I do agree that it seems to be more likely with males. Females seem to be more resilient for some reason. If a boy already had some learning disabilities or delays, struggled in school socially, was abused, had neglectful, drugged-up parents -- sure, it could definitely result in this. But I don't know. I think it's just as likely this guy had a normal childhood and is just a sociopath. But I'm not sure that helps narrow it down at all.
 
Unless his car wasn't parked by the cemetery.

(Did I miss something....we don't know anything about a car, do we?)

jmo

I'd think he would want to get out of there ASAP after what he did. Not chance someone else walking up from the bridge and possibly seeing him in the woods. I think he either left via the cemetery or the road under the bridge. That road might be used a lot for people going to the river so maybe wouldn't be as "noticed" as "odd". It's so close to that plant that people could go sit down there for their lunch. But how would anyone know the property owner wasn't just at the store or about to come home. Or that maybe he had someone living there with him that wouldn't be walking around the property. I also have a strange feeling that BG is watching this thread.

If you ARE watching...PLEASE turn yourself in. Those little girls did not deserve to die. They were kids being kids. Whatever they did....was not worth killing them over. You could have walked away. If you planned this, you are very sick and need help. Please... do the right thing.
 
How many women in the general public have you talked to about their background?

You're talking to an imprisoned population, which dramatically increases the likelihood of them having a traumatised past. I can guarantee you that a lot of functional, totally normal looking people out there have also had traumatised childhoods. You just don't know it.

I've talked to a LOT of women about their backgrounds in the general population, and yes, there are many who had traumatic childhoods. It's not like the prison population, where virtually none of them have positive relationships with their moms. Grandpas and Grandmas, yes. I would agree with the bolded part - that the increase should be dramatic. We're only talking about a 28% increase in abuse and neglectful backgrounds in the prison population over the general population. I would think that kind of background would increase your chances of being incarcerated over the general population by 60-70%.

I'm not trying to argue and maybe this is off-topic anyway. That 28% just seems far too low to me.
 
With LE thinking (I believe that is a fact?) this person could be from out of state, keep in mind Delphi is not far from Ohio, Michigan, Illinois. He could easily be from one of these states and make a day trip to Delphi area.
 
Long shot but could BG be amish? I know they are in the area and since regular citizens don't live in the Amish community they wouldn't recognize him and the Amish don't have TV's or radios.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I've talked to a LOT of women about their backgrounds in the general population, and yes, there are many who had traumatic childhoods. It's not like the prison population, where virtually none of them have positive relationships with their moms. Grandpas and Grandmas, yes. I would agree with the bolded part - that the increase should be dramatic. We're only talking about a 28% increase in abuse and neglectful backgrounds in the prison population over the general population. I would think that kind of background would increase your chances of being incarcerated over the general population by 60-70%.

I'm not trying to argue and maybe this is off-topic anyway. That 28% just seems far too low to me.

My guess, though, is that women with supportive families aren't going to be sitting in jail cells because they have access to decent attorneys, plea bargains, etc. Regardless, I didn't make up the stat or offer a personal anecdote. The info is from a well-designed, peer-reviewed study (which I linked).
 
[FONT=&quot]Has it been mentioned at all WHERE the girls were suppose to be picked up at?[/FONT]
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
95
Guests online
1,944
Total visitors
2,039

Forum statistics

Threads
600,248
Messages
18,105,892
Members
230,993
Latest member
Clue Keeper
Back
Top