IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #36

[iten]

To give perspective on the tropical fish shopping. If RL is an aquarium owner, he likely has a relationship with a local fish store (LFS.) I have kept freshwater and saltwater tanks at various times in my life and it is imperative to have a good supplier that you can depend on for quality fish stock. Some stores have better reputations than others and, if you keep fish, you know that one sick fish can easily contaminate your tank. Even in a larger city like where I live, there are only about 3-4 LFS to choose from. In a smaller area, I can see where you might have to drive to another town to get your fish and/or supplies unless you are into ordering online. So, if he is an aquarium keeper and that was his alibi for one of the days I can bet that it was easy to verify because if he frequented the LFS they likely recognized him as a regular customer. Just my opinion and perspective.

The LFS possibly also has security cameras. Someone posted a link to a website for an LFS in Lafayette -- think it was on the previous thread. If the link was for 'the' shop then it looked like a serious LFS, and therefore likely to have security cameras.

 

[*Verdigris]

Yes, somoene has made a gif of the two photos in sequence and it's clear that they are merely seconds apart. Let me see if I can dig it up....

ETA: I can't locate it and it's not coming up using the search function. :gaah:

...


Here ya go:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-Delphi-13-Feb-2017-6&p=13164750#post13164750


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[Momma2cam]

I'm still mystified by all the focus on RSO's when we don't even know there was any sexual assault involved in this case. I tend to think there wasn't since when the bodies were first found LE said they "suspected foul play". If they were found naked, raped and bloody, I'd think there was no room for doubt that foul play was involved.

I thought the comment about not suspecting foul play was made on the evening of 2/13 before the bodies were found.

https://www.cbs4indy.com/2017/02/16...gers-liberty-german-and-abigail-williams/amp/

"12 a.m.*Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby says in a news release that there is no reason to suspect foul play or to believe the girls are in immediate danger. The biggest concern is exposure to the elements."

After bodies were found, foul play was suspected.

https://www.fox59.com/2017/02/14/officials-give-update-on-two-missing-carroll-county-teens/amp/

"They say foul play is suspected, and they are currently conducting a death investigation.*There is no information on any potential suspects."

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[SuziQ]

Does anyone if RL has stated where he was between 1:00 and 3:30 on the 13?

Not as far as I know. We know when he returned but not when he left.

Anyone, Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[luckeeesmom]

Good points.

A friend owns a tropical fish store back where I'm from (Upstate, NY). He has loyal customers all the way down to NC, and he sends his workers all the way there for service calls.

Tropical fish folks are a loyal bunch.

They definitely are! Also, when keeping saltwater tanks, it is often more convenient to purchase the reverse osmosis water for topping off the tank and the pre-mixed saltwater in 5 gallon jugs from the LFS for water changes. It's pretty easy to maintain when you get into it and a very satisfying hobby. I felt like it was important to make that distinction because I've seen many on the forum speaking about how odd it was for RL to buy tropical fish. In my opinion, unless he has no tank, it's not very odd at all.

 

[Burnt Toast]

RL told inside edition he was out buying tropical fish.

yes, i knew he was buying a fish, but that place is only 20 miles away. One could be there and back, even with the purchase, in around an hour or so of time, and if he left t directly to buy the fish, and he was home at 6:30, he really would not have needed to leave before 5. I wish we could know how he accounted for all of the time between 1 and 6:30. That is a whole lot of time.

 

[Gisjoe]

I just realized that his hands are in different pockets. His left arm is in his jean pocket and the other in a higher pocket. Possibly ready to pull out whatever weapon he had? JMO to me this might suggest that he is right handed. Not sure how I missed that before. I apologize if anyone else has mentioned this before in previous threads. Just caught my eye. Keep sleuthin folks!


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[GangaMa]

One thing I can't come up with a theory for is why they weren't found till 12:15 pm. They must have had a pretty good group out early and more as the morning went on. They must have looked around the creek and clothes were seen in the creek, visible. Were they covered? Could a searcher have been involved and deflected people to their bodies until they were both in place to "be discovered"? Probably they started searching by 7 am, right? And it took 5 hrs with clothes visible and only 50 ft from the bank?

IIRC,There was some speculation earlier on in the threads that perhaps LE had to wait for the right SAR dogs and/or their handlers. Does anyone know if LE has stated a specific search start time on the 14th?

 

[WebSight]

I mean this with the most respect to everyone here but that photoshop pic will open a new can of worms here for new posters.Photo shop is what it is,not factual and will start a goose chance not based on any reality.While it is good for the case to have a pic of the perp,you can not see what you do not see.There has been so many wild speculation it is turning into the Swat Perp video in the Bevers case.The info in this thread is getting muddied with things that have no basis and posters are confusing as fact..It is so hard to read here.Bless you all for your efforts.

I HAVE ASKED THE MODS TO REMOVE MY GRAPHIC OVERLAY OF BG AND ABBY AND TO CLEAN UP THE THREADS PERTAINING TO IT.

For those who found it helpful for any reason I am glad for that, but I certainly don't want it to clog up the thread with debate as to its appropriateness.

I know you all understand that! :couch: It was a request and admittedly I was happy to do it but for any who feel it was in poor taste, I am sorry. I think the

person who asked for it had hoped it would answer some questions visually, that's all.

 

[tokyorose]

yes, i knew he was buying a fish, but that place is only 20 miles away. One could be there and back, even with the purchase, in around an hour or so of time, and if he left t directly to buy the fish, and he was home at 6:30, he really would not have needed to leave before 5. I wish we could know how he accounted for all of the time between 1 and 6:30. That is a whole lot of time.

It for sure is a whole lot of time and perhaps these are the same questions LE has with his alibi...

 

[bmcquay]

I'm going to just ramble on about hypothetical CODs and the evidence the perp(s) might have left behind.

1. choking or drowning - Close physical contact may have resulted in some DNA under fingernails if one of them scratched him in the struggle. Also there might be fibers from the clothing exchanged between the victims and the perp(s).
2. blunt trama - the weapon would likely have DNA on it and the victims blood could possibly have gotten on the perp
3. knife attack - The weapon would likely have had DNA on it. Blood from the victims would be everywhere and likely all over the perp. Could have partially washed up in the creek. Also there might be fibers from the clothing exchanged between the victims and the perp(s).
4. gun - ballistics evidence

Am I missing some other kind of likely COD or physical evidence?

Now for some speculation. LE has mentioned at one point that they do have DNA evidence though they don't mention its the DNA of the perp unfortunately. They also mentioned that they likely have already spoken with the perp(s). They recently took RL's truck which suggests to me that they're either looking for fibers or DNA in the truck. Either they have fibers or DNA from the perp(s) found on the victims they are looking to match in the truck or they have DNA or fibers from the victims they want to find inside the truck. To me that almost rules out 4. If its 2 or 3, LE likely wants to find the murder weapon too. Without a murder weapon or someone with knowledge of the perp(s), they're left with finding the perp with fibers and DNA.

Options:
1. They have perp(s) DNA and need to find the match
2. They have some of perp(s) clothing fibers and need to find the match
3. They have neither DNA or fibers from the perp

First off they are definitely trying to match DNA and fibers from the victims to the perp(s). That will make the case rock solid if the victims' DNA or fibers were found with the perp(s) (for instance maybe inside a white truck). If they can't find the victims' dna or fibers on a perp they could still match the opposite. If they have DNA from the perp found with the victims they will try to match it. If they can either compel or legally find a way to get DNA from the perp(s) then they have a solid case. If they only have fibers then it might be a much looser case but still doable if they found the right mix in the right location like the passenger seat of a vehicle for instance. If they don't have either DNA or fibers from the perp(s) then they don't have very much to go on.

Questions:
* I'm curious if they are allowed to obtain DNA in ways other than directly getting it from the person like from a discarded drink can or cigarette buts?
* If a knife was the murder weapon, would a dishwasher be able to effectively clean it of any DNA and clothing fibers?
* Could DNA or fibers be found inside a dishwasher or would the heat and drainage nearly wash everything away?

 

[Momma2cam]

I think they started much later than 7am, though I'm going off memory. I remember being surprised that the search started that late.
jmo

The reports indicate 11:45 for the search but around midnight 2/13 it was reported the search was to begin first thing in the morning. There was discussion on the scanner thread with more details that can't be brought here. Libby's grandfather also thanked searchers for searching all night with the family in a news report, which makes me think there were searches non-stop but not all organized by LE/ professionals.

I'm wondering if there were search groups split up to look in different locations and the group made it to the private property they were found on around 11:45. JMO, no idea why the discrepancy or where that time came from. It seems far too late to get started. Moo

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[iten]

I'm still mystified by all the focus on RSO's when we don't even know there was any sexual assault involved in this case. I tend to think there wasn't since when the bodies were first found LE said they "suspected foul play". If they were found naked, raped and bloody, I'd think there was no room for doubt that foul play was involved.

I've found some of the official statements coming from LE to be downright confusing. I suspect LE is trying so hard to give nothing away that they end up sending confused or mixed messages. I certainly found that with the comment they made about BG being (paraphrase) "middle aged white male" and immediately followed that with (paraphrase) RL "is a white male". (It was in a news clip posted on the last thread?) I immediately scratched my head and wondered what they were actually saying. It was a confusing statement.

 

[Novelist]

To give perspective on the tropical fish shopping. If RL is an aquarium owner, he likely has a relationship with a local fish store (LFS.) I have kept freshwater and saltwater tanks at various times in my life and it is imperative to have a good supplier that you can depend on for quality fish stock. Some stores have better reputations than others and, if you keep fish, you know that one sick fish can easily contaminate your tank. Even in a larger city like where I live, there are only about 3-4 LFS to choose from. In a smaller area, I can see where you might have to drive to another town to get your fish and/or supplies unless you are into ordering online. So, if he is an aquarium keeper and that was his alibi for one of the days I can bet that it was easy to verify because if he frequented the LFS they likely recognized him as a regular customer. Just my opinion and perspective.

There are two stores (maybe three) in Lafayette that carry tropical fish. The main one has a camera looking right at you as you walk in the door. The other is in a "worse" part of town and the selection is smaller. I believe there are cameras there too. Yes, that would be easy to figure out if RL was there that day. Of course, we have no idea if he has a tank in his house.

I live in Lafayette if anyone questions this btw.

Moo

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[Hillbilllycat]

BBM..I've always thought in the one pic he looks like he could be around that age range too, still do. In the other pic he does look older and menacing, but then again the lighting in that pic around his face is much darker.

jmo

I've always felt as though in the 2nd pic BG had covered the lower half of his face with something. Just my opinion but it gives the illusion of different shape to the face. He's much more youthful in the first pic. Leads me to believe he knows how to "mask" his features. I can't shake the feeling he had thought this out.

 

[luckeeesmom]

It for sure is a whole lot of time and perhaps these are the same questions LE has with his alibi...

In my fish buying experience, I was never in and out as quick as that. I usually wanted to peruse the LFS to check out any new equipment and new fish they had on hand before checking out. After buying fish, you're on a much tighter schedule getting back to the house where your tank is because you're not going to want your fish in a bag to experience temperature changes and at some point the fish would run out of the oxygen trapped in the bag. So, to sum it up, if I was running several errands, the LFS would be my last stop if I was buying fish.

 

[cuffem]

I HAVE ASKED THE MODS TO REMOVE MY GRAPHIC OVERLAY OF BG AND ABBY AND TO CLEAN UP THE THREADS PERTAINING TO IT.

For those who found it helpful for any reason I am glad for that, but I certainly don't want it to clog up the thread with debate as to its appropriateness.

I know you all understand that! :couch:

I understand your efforts to help with the case and maybe it can be used later on when there is more info or LE has named a suspect.

 

[Novelist]

I'm still mystified by all the focus on RSO's when we don't even know there was any sexual assault involved in this case. I tend to think there wasn't since when the bodies were first found LE said they "suspected foul play". If they were found naked, raped and bloody, I'd think there was no room for doubt that foul play was involved.

I think it's a double edged sword. There are too many RSOs roaming around plus it's a logical place to start for this crime. Don't be fooled, most if not all RSOs are RSOs because they do bad things to kids. If your on the list you deserve to have your life under a microscope.

Moo

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[layer]

"They say foul play is suspected, and they are currently conducting a death investigation.*

Like I said, if they were found naked, raped and bloody, those words seem sort of... misleading. There would be no room for doubt, no reason to just "suspect foul play."

 

[Etilema]

...

This was mentioned numerous times on several of the early threads. I don't expect you've read them all, so that is probably why you haven't seen it.


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Though I would be very surprised if the girls would fall for an accusation of trespassing, when they and apparently many other people hang out there and cross that bridge all the time. JMO


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