IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #50

[Confusion]

If Libby and Abby were last heard from at 3:30 where were they between 2:30 (when they supposedly encountered BG) and 3:30 when they talked to Abby's mother?

Sorry, but do you have a link to someone saying they talked to the girls at 3:30? I didn't think anyone had contact with them after they were dropped off. TIA

 

[jillycat]

I don't think anyone snapped.

And I don't think the heavy FBI resources and 6000 billboards represent evidence that points to an alcohol problem that soared into the double homicide realm of two girls who seem to have been killed in a manner that has visibly shaken LE and involves the BAU.

 

[St. Anthony2017]

Do you have a theory as to what type of illegal activity and why it would be transpiring at that particular location w the bridge involved? Just trying to understand more of the picture you had in mind.

I was thinking that if the girls had used Kik the BG might have thought they were older 16-18 and when he saw they were kids he became angry. They were maybe expecting a teenage guy and he was expecting young women not girls. Maybe he was looking to traffick them and they were too young but would be able to identify him and maybe someone else so he had to do what he did . He has a twisted mind imo.

 

[FrostedGlass]

The other day, a couple of members were talking about the possibility of poor reception in the trail area. IIRC, it was said that phones will continue to try to upload to Snapchat until the signal improves enough to be successful.

If that happens, is the time the pic was taken stamped or is the actual time of uploading stamped?

 

[Bemused]

I understand what you're saying. And yes, there are nearly always red flags which get brought up after the fact. I remember reading about the hitman/SK Richard Kuklinsky(?) and he had been physically abusive toward his wife and children, but they were scared of him. If we assume for a second that RL may not be BG, then getting the correct tip could be compromised by anyone close to BG who is already afraid of him. That is all I was trying to say. And with RL, yes there are already red flags, such as his probable alcoholism and the protective order, and yes, people do "snap". While I still believe RL could be the guy, until ~4/24(unless they say something definitively before then) we are in limbo, due to waiting on all evidence to be examined, so I am looking at other possibilities as well, as I have from the beginning.

Understood looking at other possibilities.

I'll bet that Craig Peyser's intention when he activated his lightbar was a date or a little groping and not murder as he stepped out of that patrol car. Until, as was speculated, Cara threatened to report him and he grabbed her and strangled her with a rope. He had scratches and they found fibers on her clothing and blood matching his type but this was before DNA. This was before computers in patrol cars or dash cams. If Peyser never radioed he was stopping someone, and the license plate for a want/warrant check, who would know? My dad's closest friend was career CHP so I remember him talking about this case and how horrified his coworkers were.

 

[BoggLed in Ohio]

This is what nags at me as well. I was pretty entrenched in my own theorizing about what happened at first but there have some great theories bantered about here since then. I think what you brought up one of the most significant tells in this case which leads me to the question: What does everyone here find to be the other most significant tells that can lead to the creation of any one theory? As in when you are working a theory, what made you go down that road to begin with? What were the indicators?
It seems like being thread 50 maybe deconstructing might see where everyone is at in the rehash.

The things that stick out most for me still when theorizing:
1) Short time window to commit crime as you stated.
2) Three people being on the bridge right after the girls were there who say they saw and heard nothing.
3) The way sound travels in woods in wintertime with the crackling of dead, dry leaves (this leads me to a question about the stream... how loud is it? and it was said to be higher that week. Were there significant rains before then, and this is far fetched but could a boat (canoe) make it down to the area from the bridge that crosses the road upstream from there and then be drug out to the cemetary area to be picked up later)
4) The clothes being found in the stream (has this been reported or is it just rumor? and if it was reported somewhere, were the clothes found upstream or downstream from where the girls were?)
5) The clean crime scene (again has then been reported or is it just rumor?)
6) BG's shoulders. Hypothetically the rest of the clothing could kind of cloak his true frame and not be typical of what he usually wears, but unless he wore shoulder pads -- kinda hard to negotiate while committing a crime - his shoulders seem like an outstanding feature. They are beefy and have a distinct slope- width.
7) The gun... it's been discussed that really looks like a gun in his pocket. What percentage of certainty would anyone say with confidence that is a gun?, because if it is a gun, it indicates premeditation and an element of control that would have been desired by the perpetrator.
8) The picture on one of the threads here taken apparently from the crime scene where the MT bridge is clearly visible from there, which doesn't seem to mesh w some of the other articles that show the crime scene being further north, and I find in thinking about this the actual site of the crime scene in relation to exactly where the bridge ends seems to be crucial.
9) The letter from the attorney that says they were both killed on the 13th. IDK wholly why it seems to me to be right now but that seems significant.
10) The fact that Libby (or Abby) felt compelled to film BG in the first place.
11) Were all the connecting roads (the one that passes over the stream and goes past the cemetary, and the one that leads to the dirt road that passes under MTB but does not pass the Transfer Station) directly accessible to the Hoosier Highway -- meaning are there on ramps from those roads to the highway?
12) Also someone said something about a cave being close to there.. How close is it? Is it along Deer Creek?

And last but not least can we discuss stuff from the scanner thread here? It sounds like we can't discuss stuff from this thread there but how about vice versa? There is something significant from the scanner thread I'd like to ask about here maybe as well...

good questions..

Re: #2...Is that for absolute CERTAIN these people were ON the bridge AFTER the crime? Did they take pictures that document the exact time, or did they guestimate by memory about what time they were there? And did they CROSS the bridge all the way, halfway, part way or what?

#Sound traveling.... would the water be loud enough to swallow up the sounds of screaming? IDK... also it would partly rely upon the exact atmospheric conditions at the time (including humidity levels/dew points, wind direction and speed all play factors in sound) plus the trees ,, despite still being bare, can act like sound barriers. But my guess is no one heard them due to a combination of at least some of those above mentioned factors and along with the possible (even likelihood ? that they were gagged/knocked unconscious or intimidated by fear/weapon/psychological warfare by the perp to remain silent) Now as for someone on the bridge not seeing them down the hill below... well im not surprised by that, I saw the many different videos and there are lots of blind spots especially by the creek bed area where steep drop offs of land are.
PS...I did also wonder about the *(unlikely?) possibility of a small canoe or raft even being used by the perp...IDK...I suppose its certainly a possibility..what does everyone else think about this as a possible mode of escaping the scene?

#4 we cant comment on the garments

#5..the "clean crime scene".... I saw the video taken from within the taped in area by the creek...which gave me the creeps really really bad.... but I do admit to me it looked fairly unremarkable to me..I was expecting to at least see large areas of leaf-free sections or something... I dont know what to make of that... unless nature had already began to do it's thing and the wind blew leaves and such back all over...

#12... I have not heard about a cave, would like to know also. What I do wonder about is the cemetery and it's role in all this. Id also like to know if it is one that has underground tunnels like some do.


and another Q i wanted to ask that is not on your list...is do you all agree it could be a conceal carry jacket he is wearing that member (Daeee?) brought up? That would be pretty significant to be able to confirm that and possibly trace if a thrift shop/army surplus/second hand shop/garage sale etc sold one that may remember BG if only vaguely ....

That is all I can really reply to for now..

 

[Ms Suzanne]

Maybe they can use this snapshot DNA profiling on Liberty German and Abigails Williams double murder.Has anyone suggested this to LE?https://snapshot.parabon-nanolabs.com/

 

[cloudajo]

This is what nags at me as well. I was pretty entrenched in my own theorizing about what happened at first but there have some great theories bantered about here since then. I think what you brought up one of the most significant tells in this case which leads me to the question: What does everyone here find to be the other most significant tells that can lead to the creation of any one theory? As in when you are working a theory, what made you go down that road to begin with? What were the indicators?
It seems like being thread 50 maybe deconstructing might see where everyone is at in the rehash.

The things that stick out most for me still when theorizing:
1) Short time window to commit crime as you stated.
2) Three people being on the bridge right after the girls were there who say they saw and heard nothing.
3) The way sound travels in woods in wintertime with the crackling of dead, dry leaves (this leads me to a question about the stream... how loud is it? and it was said to be higher that week. Were there significant rains before then, and this is far fetched but could a boat (canoe) make it down to the area from the bridge that crosses the road upstream from there and then be drug out to the cemetary area to be picked up later)
4) The clothes being found in the stream (has this been reported or is it just rumor? and if it was reported somewhere, were the clothes found upstream or downstream from where the girls were?)
5) The clean crime scene (again has then been reported or is it just rumor?)

[snipped for space]

Thanks for this. I'll comment on 1, 2, 4 and 5.

1) Short time window to commit crime as you stated.

I think the crime started shortly after 2:30pm and the killer was gone by 3:30pm or so. I think he either just left or he heard persons coming along the bridge/talking and made a hasty exit. (IMO)

2) Three people being on the bridge right after the girls were there who say they saw and heard nothing.

See above. One woman was noted in an article and said she didn’t see the girls and went across the bridge and back. She mentioned another couple on the bridge when she got there but we don’t know if the other couple went all the way to the SE end of the bridge or if they saw/heard anything. IMO I don’t think they saw/heard anything.
http://heavy.com/news/2017/02/liber...ssing-snapchat-facebook-photos-family-bridge/

4) The clothes being found in the stream (has this been reported or is it just rumor? and if it was reported somewhere, were the clothes found upstream or downstream from where the girls were?)

It was reported by a reporter/photographer who was near the scene on Feb 14. He said that from 75 yards away he could see girl’s clothing in the creek east of the bridge and knew the girls were found nearby. There is also a mention of clothing in transcription on scanner thread. Whether these are definitively connected to the crime we don’t know.
https://www.facebook.com/jkyle.keener/media_set?set=a.10209763319577780.1073741969.1174987605&type=3

5) The clean crime scene (again has then been reported or is it just rumor?)

IMO, I think this has been misinterpreted. I don't think anything has been stated about what the crime scene looked like on Tues, Feb 14. Investigators were there for ~2 ½ days before they released the area back to RL. During a CNN interview, the commentator asked RL what he saw when he went out there (which he said was Thurs AM-Feb 16). She asked him whether he saw any blood, did he see a gruesome scene? He answered that there was not much to see other than crime scene tape and the area was still very pristine. IMO yes it was pristine because the investigators cleaned up before they left and released the property back to him. We’ve now seen the video of the crime scene area ourselves taken on Feb 16 and I agree, it was pristine on Feb 16.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1702/20/ptab.01.html
http://www.gettyimages.com/license/645276720

 

[Sir WiggleBottom III]

I can not fully understand why this case has so captivated/angered/sicken me as much as it has. I suppose going off the initial reaction of LE that the level of violence/depravity is something beyond our capability to even imagine.

 

[NightOwl77]

Regarding this quote:

"I am copying this from Kyja's post on the previous thread, post #953 :
"According to this article which includes a picture of Abby's mum's fb post, the girls hadn't been heard from since a round 3:30pm. Anna's fb post was at 6:49pm and she stated the girls haven't been in contact for about 3 hours.
http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/eerie-photo-of-bridge-where-indiana-girls-were-murdered-posted-four-years-ago-by-tragic-mum/news-story/e9a91eebc06a5730b92026d6e26a6f75"

The stated timing is important. The girls were supposed to have someone be at the pickup point between 3-3:30 pm. They may not have been at the taped crime scene until 2:45-3:00pm, depending on what took place between the bridge and the cs. But if Abby's mother is right about the time, (and I do not doubt her on this - she would have known down to the last minute), then either someone called them at 3:30, causing a phone to ring, or someone showed up at the park at 3:30 and couldn't find the girls (and may have yelled their names or honked the car horn).
All of this leaves very little time for the perp to do whatever was done and then make a clean getaway. It bugs me that LE won't even release a timeline for these things. It sure would clarify a lot of things. However, IF they already know who the killer is, and are waiting for more evidence to arrest him, then I guess they don't feel the need to release anything at all.
MOO"

The comment about 3:30 is not in the linked article. The part in bold is added by the Websleuth member. What is in the article is:

"At 6.49pm on Monday, Anna Williams wrote a panicky post on Facebook for anyone who had seen the girls to “please contact myself or the sheriff’s department immediately! The girls haven’t been in contact for about three hours!!!!”."

What she is saying that she expected to hear from the girls three hours prior to the post, not that she last heard from the girls three hours earlier.

Yea, I think that's the rub. It's really hard to tell what exactly she was saying. That statement "The girls haven’t been in contact for about three hours!!!!”." could be interpreted in several different ways.

 

[NightOwl77]

Is there a link stating what time Libby started her video of BG? People are assuming 2:30ish?
We know the snap-chat pic was at 2:07. They did not make it to their designated pickup point by 3:30.
And Abby's mom saying at 6:49 pm, they hadn't been heard from in 3 hours. It is narrowed to 2:07 to 3:49 approx. When did Libby start taking her video?
And we don't know if there are other pictures or how long the video ran, do we?

Also there were 3 people on the bridge right after that... There is the woman that says she went across the bridge and back right after them and only saw another couple. So my assumption has always been she means she knew about the snapchat at 2:07 and so when she said "right after they were there" she meant like around 2:30 to 3:00pm. I don't think "right after" would be greater than an hour and how else would she know it was right after unless she saw the time posted or spoke w LE -- which I imagine she did.

That's what has always really stuck out the most. This had to have happened really quickly if that's the case (her timing in being there so close to when they were). Then the parents show up around 3-3:30pm.

And no one saw or heard *anything*?

It's mind boggling.

 

[asyousay]

Sorry, but do you have a link to someone saying they talked to the girls at 3:30? I didn't think anyone had contact with them after they were dropped off. TIA

Then why wouldn't he of deleted all the incriminating evidence on her phone ?

 

[Reluctant1]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[infarmgurl]

When Abby's Mom heard from them "around 3:30" was it a voice call, message, text, or ???? What did they say to her Mom?

 

[NightOwl77]

This is what I'm going by based on info available. I personally think the video of the suspect walking toward them was filmed about 2:30, he was upon them within ~20 seconds, Libby kept her video on and then put her phone next to her side or slipped it into her pocket, at which time it became audio only (IMO). I think the battery later ran out.

2:07PM – Pic of Abby posted on Snapchat
2:30PM - Video of suspect walking towards girls
Audio of suspect directing the girls ‘down the hill’ just before start of ‘criminal behavior’
Criminal behavior

Ref:

2:07PM Libby posted a photo on her Snapchat account showing Abby walking across the old railroad bridge (Ref)

2:30PM ‘Wanted’ billboard later put up by FBI shows picture of suspect and says ‘Male last seen 2/13/17 @ 2:30PM (Ref ~1:35 in video)

ISP Sgt. Tony Slocum called German a hero for turning on her phone's video camera in time to depict and record the voice of her assailant. ‘…To have enough presence of mind to activate that video system on her cellphone, to record what we believe is criminal behavior that's about to occur.’ (Ref)

Sgt Tony Slocum, Indiana State Police Interview (transcribed): ‘…Hopefully someone will recognize that voice and to me, it appears they are saying, down the hill, down the hill, like they’re directing the young ladies where to go. It sounds like it might even be a little exasperated, like he had told them to do that before, and they weren’t quite listening, and he’s telling them to do it.’ (Ref)

Police say Libby started recording video on her phone, but they won't give many more details than that. They wouldn't say the length of the video, when she started recording, what else is heard or if there is any usable video along with it, but they do say there is more to it. (Ref)

Wow. Thanks for the FBI part. That makes it 30 mins to 1hr. before parents arrive *and* 3 other people on the bridge within that time frame *before* the parents even get there, and yet after the girls are already gone. And those 3 people saw or heard nothing.

Unbelievable. That's just really, really fast. I'm completely floored and mystified how this went down.

 

[Falling Down]

<snip>
All of this leaves very little time for the perp to do whatever was done and then make a clean getaway. It bugs me that LE won't even release a timeline for these things. It sure would clarify a lot of things. However, IF they already know who the killer is, and are waiting for more evidence to arrest him, then I guess they don't feel the need to release anything at all.
MOO"

The comment about 3:30 is not in the linked article. The part in bold is added by the Websleuth member. What is in the article is:

"At 6.49pm on Monday, Anna Williams wrote a panicky post on Facebook for anyone who had seen the girls to &#8220;please contact myself or the sheriff&#8217;s department immediately! The girls haven&#8217;t been in contact for about three hours!!!!&#8221;."

What she is saying that she expected to hear from the girls three hours prior to the post, not that she last heard from the girls three hours earlier.

I try to keep in mind that a lot of locals didn't know where this bridge is located, and thus wouldn't know the park and its' surroundings. It reminds me of one of my favorite urban parks, and it's an abandoned RR property, like so many other neat parks. It's there, but not many locals know it's there. A lot of us following the case here on WS probably know the area surrounding the crime scene better than some or even a lot of folks in Delphi. I don't know how long the parking area and the trail from it and leading to the old railroad RoW have existed, but I'll hazard a guess it's under 15 years. The bridge itself still is private property, owned by CSX, which a lot of folks would be averse to walking on for just that simple fact.

I think some or even all of the above facts and factors are things the killer or killers were banking on, in order to carry out this horrific crime. Just the walk to the bridge takes roughly 6-7 minutes, according to this great video put together by Gray Hughes, and in the comments he mentions that he sped up the walking part of the video 10%:

[video=youtube;DZzBCyLSI0E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZzBCyLSI0E[/video]

The above video contains clips from at least one WS member (the part of the video showing the "down the hill", and across land to the creek side), plus someone who walked from the parking area to the bridge, and an MSM video, which is at the very end, showing the crime scene.

I agree re: a timeline, and quite frankly it might help jog some memories of people who have information about a possible suspect. MOO is the person or persons involved were long gone by the time the girls were supposed to be picked up, which was roughly 3:30. A gal who was there around the same time said she saw and heard nothing out of the ordinary, which also indicates to me no one was there looking for the girls, yet. So we have a drop off time of 1:45 (according to the latest info I've seen), last SC photo uploaded at 2:07, and somewhere between then and 2:30 they were abducted.

Folks, that's under 45 minutes, which tells me they could have been deceased in under an hour, maybe a little more than an hour, after being dropped off.

The killer or killers had ample time to escape, before anyone would be looking for the girls. So where do you start looking for them? From the parking lot, down the old right-of-way/trail, to the bridge. When was the exact time that anyone was at the bridge looking for them? We don't know.

Emphasis mine, this is a comment under GH's video:

wakeup19862 weeks ago

Wow, I had pictured the drop off point being almost right there at the bridge...... that's a long walk with a lot of places the killer could have been hiding. Thanks for yet another video Gray !!!!!&#65279;

Either the killer was able to see them get on to the bridge, without being noticed, or maybe the girls did see him earlier on, but were not alarmed until he got on to the bridge? Any way you cut it, we're talking a very short time frame.

 

[Bemused]

I can not fully understand why this case has so captivated/angered/sicken me as much as it has. I suppose going off the initial reaction of LE that the level of violence/depravity is something beyond our capability to even imagine.

Two teen girls who captured their own murderer on video and that haunting photo of Abby. The down the hill audio knowing what Abby and Libby's fate would become. The desolate crime scene where they were left in the dark like a discarded pizza box while their families and LE searched, all while they were less than a mile away on that creek bank. Macho LEOs barely able to contain their emotions discussing it. A case still unsolved to the public and a killer not being held accountable is my guess.

Every time I think about his cruelly killing them and leaving them in the dark like a tossed hamburger wrapper I hear Nancy Grace screeching in my head: threw them away like a pair of shewwwws.

LE: I pray you're close.

 

[asyousay]

If this did go down very quickly then surely this is a professional and has done this kind of thing before ?

It all seems quite cold and calculated to me and doesn't scream first time offender who got lucky.

IMO

 

[Burnt Toast]

Then why wouldn't he of deleted all the incriminating evidence on her phone ?

perhaps it was sent via "cloud"...

 

[AmateurAnalyst73]

On a similar note, I remember my relatives being disturbed when we found out that a member of our family, who we knew had a history of theft and robbery, had sat at a holiday dinner with us while he was wanted in connection with a murder.He had a history of brutal violence, theft, robbery, and escape, but somehow, there was a sense of surprise and disbelief that he had actually crossed the line to murder. And that he was able to be jovial, calm, well-dressed, and warm toward the family, knowing he had recently committed the crime and that LE was likely looking for him. To me, the person i just described is a career criminal. He has made the choice to do whatever it takes to compartmentalize his career. Someone like the Peyer guy, to my thinking, is a person with a predatory nature, who likely killed to keep his secrets hidden. Someone who kills out of rage due to a small confrontation which quickly escalates, although similar to what Peyer did, is still(IMO) different, in that it isn't usually done to cover up other activity. It tends to be quick, and all though an attempt to cover it up, or stage it as something else isn't uncommon, confessions in these cases are also fairly common. Again, I am still somewhat on the fence regarding RL. There are just certain aspects that raise flags for me that this doesn't seem like a heat of the moment crime. If we speculate that he marched them over to his property to scold or chastise, and that escalated into murder, it would seem that the marching them over there was already, by law, felonious abduction. And the voice on the recording saying "down the hill" seems calm, not enraged. BG also, to me anyway, looks like he's trying to look nonchalant...hands in pockets, head down, staying to the right. I would expect an angry, possibly intoxicated, property owner to walk right up the middle, hands out, possibly yelling or shaking his head. These are the things that have me leaning hard toward one side of this fence. I really hope we get some answers soon, and I appreciate your knowledge, experience, and assuredness. Wish I could be as sure about this situation.

Understood looking at other possibilities.

I'll bet that Craig Peyser's intention when he activated his lightbar was a date or a little groping and not murder as he stepped out of that patrol car. Until, as was speculated, Cara threatened to report him and he grabbed her and strangled her with a rope. He had scratches and they found fibers on her clothing and blood matching his type but this was before DNA. This was before computers in patrol cars or dash cams. If Peyser never radioed he was stopping someone, and the license plate for a want/warrant check, who would know? My dad's closest friend was career CHP so I remember him talking about this case and how horrified his coworkers were.